[Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 22, 2017 10:23 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:This logic does not compute for me. How is having a plot full of people and structures making mistakes inherently bad? Again, I fail to see the objectivity behind all this.


No one ever said making mistakes was inherently bad. It's only bad when your plot requires that everyone make obvious mistakes that real people would never make purely to serve the needs of the plot. I don't think this is a particularly opaque concept, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you're playing ignorant here.

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Company didn't know the Aliens took over the colony. They ASSUMED because of Ripley's story. At that point WY has not yet had any physical evidence of the Xenomorph. They sent Burke with the Marines to verify. Either way, whether the Marines take Ripley's story as fact - they don't - those guys going in without a helmet is still just as valid a logistical criticism as it is in Prometheus/Alien: Covenant.


No, it really isn't. LV 426 was a terraformed world and they had no reason to think a disease was in play, so there was no reason for them to do that. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Either way, I'm having a bit of a laugh seeing people on the Evageeks forum attack Alien: Covenant for having characters acting foolishly advance the plot & then we turn right around & vigorously defend Evangelion 3.0 for pretty much committing some of the exact same flaws.


People are attacking Prometheus, not Covenant. And they defend Q because it does the heavy lifting to justify pretty much every foolish decision made throughout. Prometheus doesn't.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Mon May 22, 2017 10:28 pm

160 people disappeared. Colonial Marines didn't believe the Xenomorph story. In a realistic scenario the possibilities of a viral infection is the number one probability. It was dumb to not use breathing gear in Aliens but everyone's okay with that because there is zero infection in the film. If characters in Prometheus/Alien:Covenant weren't infected by viral elements no one would attack them for having no helmets.

And in YOUR opinion Q does all the heavy lifting to justify every foolish decision & in YOUR opinion Prometheus does not. I'd argue both do the heavy lifting & it's how people approach the film that causes "problems" but that's MY opinion.
Meanwhile other people say's Q does zero heavy lifting (example: http://www.otakurevolution.com/content/rebuild-of-evangelion-333-you-can-not-redo-review) & that too is an equally valid opinion.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Sachi » Mon May 22, 2017 10:37 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No one ever said making mistakes was inherently bad. It's only bad when your plot requires that everyone make obvious mistakes that real people would never make purely to serve the needs of the plot. I don't think this is a particularly opaque concept, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you're playing ignorant here.

On the contrary, I don't put it above real people at all to make the mistakes of the sort we're discussing. At all.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Chuckman » Mon May 22, 2017 10:51 pm

The problem isn't that the dumb mistakes are there it's that the audience isn't engaged enough with the characters to gloss over them.

I'll take the running in a straight line thing as my example. People call Charlize Theron's character stupid for running in a straight line because hey have no emotional investment in her character. They don't feel the panic and tension of the moment and I think most audience members want her arrogant, obnoxious character to get smushed anyway so they just point and laugh.

That's a problem with that of these movies, I think. They have a sterility that isn't present in Scott's other work. Both movies have too many bland, easily confused characters and are fairly predictable, and both are, I think, suffer severely from pacing issues owing to just too much stuff, too many subplots, and too many info dumps. It's even worse in Alien: Covenant because the alien connection is superfluous to the movie.

Prometheus and Covenant, with the xenomorph references removed, would make great sequels to Alien, which is getting pretty tired since every sequel is a remake of the first movie and only Aliens is interesting or actually expands on it.

It might even work as a side-quel series, taking place concurrently with Ripley's hypersleep.

There are just so many ways the promising elements of Prometheus could have continued in this and it ended up going in a really uninteresting direction.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Bagheera » Mon May 22, 2017 10:52 pm

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:160 people disappeared. Colonial Marines didn't believe the Xenomorph story. In a realistic scenario the possibilities of a viral infection is the number one probability. It was dumb to not use breathing gear in Aliens but everyone's okay with that because there is zero infection in the film. If characters in Prometheus/Alien:Covenant weren't infected by viral elements no one would attack them for having no helmets.


Sorry, but no, that's a false comparison. LV 426 is a terraformed world, and has been for 20 years. The Company only lost contact after they told the colony to go investigate the ship Ripley described. That is literally the only reasonable cause they have to work with, and nothing in any of their data suggests disease is even a remote possibility. Meanwhile, in Prometheus the crew is dealing with an unknown planet and is not even doing basic tests to see if the place is safe. These two things are not remotely the same.

And in YOUR opinion Q does all the heavy lifting to justify every foolish decision & in YOUR opinion Prometheus does not. I'd argue both do the heavy lifting & it's how people approach the film that causes "problems" but that's MY opinion.
Meanwhile other people say's Q does zero heavy lifting (example: http://www.otakurevolution.com/content/rebuild-of-evangelion-333-you-can-not-redo-review) & that too is an equally valid opinion.


Again, that's a bad analogy. Opinions are not all equally valid; it is childishly easy to articulate all the reason why Prometheus does not do the heavy lifting to justify its plot elements, and only a bit harder to show why Q does. The fact that people have dissenting opinions doesn't make them right -- they have to articulate support for those opinions for them to have any validity, and in the main they don't.

If you want to argue the point, here's a simple way to do it: find a way to show, within the framework of the film, how Prometheus justifies all the ridiculous decisions made by both the cast and the people who bankrolled the mission. Find a way to reconcile "why are these people so incompetent?" with "why are they here to begin with if they're not expected to do a good job?" For Q the counterargument is equally simple: find a reviewer who critiques the movie after showing he/she understands the point of the ENT series (i.e. that it's Shinji's story start to finish, making questions like "what happened during the timeskip?" and "what's Mari's role in the story?" completely pointless).

View Original PostSachi wrote:On the contrary, I don't put it above real people at all to make the mistakes of the sort we're discussing. At all.


Again, the problem is not the mistakes to much as the overwhelming number of them. A hugely expensive endeavor does not work like that. Go look at the history of the space program and see how it compares to the Prometheus mission. You'll find mistakes aplenty, but none of the sheer incompetence at every level that characterized that movie. Professional environments simply don't work that way.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue May 23, 2017 6:02 am

Regardless of whatever problem the space marines might have encountered in Aliens, they clearly thought that they were going into a battle/kill 'em all situation, and not one that involved chemical/viral outbreak. I mean, Bill Paxton spends a solid 5 minutes detailing all of the cool guns and stuff they were going to use. And, since Aliens was meant to be a commentary on the Vietnam war, the actions of the space marines parallel nicely with the actions of the US Army going into that war. Sure, not being prepared for chemical/viral outbreak is a solid criticism of Aliens within terms of plot and/or world building, but it's not a criticism that involves contradictions in character set-up. All of the characters in Aliens are shown to be predisposed to mishandling the situation in a certain way, and they proceed to mishandle that situation in that exact way. Their actions don't contradict the characters that they were set up to be from the beginning. They were set up to be stupid "shoot first, ask questions later" characters, and nothing they did contradicted that role unless the situation around the characters made them realize the error in their ways. It's solid character writing with wonky world-building and a silly, simple plot. And all of this is plainly laid out from the beginning, so most audiences are either signed up for that from the beginning, or they reject it outright from the beginning. No one is disappointed half way through.

Prometheus, on the other hand, has the opposite problem. Its plot and world building is nearly flawless, but their characters do things that seem to contradict the types of characters they were set up to be from the beginning. They're set up to be people of science. They're supposed ask questions before taking action or even before making assumptions. They're meant to act slowly, carefully, and methodically. They're believed to make all of the proper measurements before deciding the next possible course. And then, without reason or precedent, they throw all of that in the wind as soon as they get on this dangerous looking planet. If audiences were expecting that scientific and methodical approach to be played out for the rest of the film by the main characters, then tough cookies, son. This is an Alien film where stupid characters do stupid things no matter how smart the film tried to convince you they were just a few minutes ago. As a result, you end up with a fair chunk of audiences that became disappointed half way through the film. "We were promised methodical character actions in an Alien universe," they postured. "Why didn't we get it?"

Now it just depends on who hates which problem the most, or who's more forgiving about any of these problems. Clearly some people see that almost all of the Alien films have issues, and just enjoy the films for what they are. And that's fine. Others were more character-focused, and any of the issues involving plot or world-building are glossed over so they could enjoy the solid character writing. And that's also fine. (A very slim amount of the audiences might even hate the world-building of the ones with more solid character writing, and that's fine too.) But, in this sense, this means that the least "problematic" Alien installment within terms of over-all consistency is still the original Alien film. And if you want to hold the rest of the franchise to that standard, be my guest. But that'll mean there has never been an Alien film as good as the original. And if "not as good as the original" is a reason to hate something, and if that's true of all Alien films, then maybe one should just ignore the Alien franchise from here on out.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Tue May 23, 2017 7:45 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:The area we have scanned several times and everything says it's completely clean? Prometheus is not the dumber of the two in this scenario. They have scanned both the outside and the inside, the inside is CLEAN. Everything shows them that, there's nothing wrong with taking the helmets off when there is nothing showing that there is a problem with the air and all the tech they have at their disposal shows that it's safe.


It's not about what you think happens in the script, it's about what you can demonstrate happens in the script.

They had no idea that the inside had a breathable atmosphere, hence the surprise when they discover it has. So no, they did not know from before. What they knew from before was that the CO2 levels of the atmosphere were too high for humans

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CO2 is over 3 percent.

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Two minutes without a suit, you're dead.

And in any case, it's what Reichu said. Breathable air is not enough to ensure safety, the canary would have made sense (Arrival does a good job of this).

For the rest, I'm pretty much with Bagheera and Freaky's last post. Aliens wasn't trying to be the most scientifically sound movie ever. "This time it's war" was the tagline, and that's what you get: the grunts, the weaponry, the machism. Prometheus, whether the director wanted it or not, does inevitably create an expectation of decent realism and consequential actions with the premise of the trillion dollar expedition. And then fails miserably at it.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Tue May 23, 2017 8:20 pm

View Original PostFalcon_of_the_Sun wrote:It's not about what you think happens in the script, it's about what you can demonstrate happens in the script.

Them figuring out that the air was breathable inside the ship and therefore ditch the helmets isn't demonstrated in the film? I'm confused at you're statement, what are you even trying to say?

For the rest, I'm pretty much with Bagheera and Freaky's last post. Aliens wasn't trying to be the most scientifically sound movie ever. "This time it's war" was the tagline, and that's what you get: the grunts, the weaponry, the machism. Prometheus, whether the director wanted it or not, does inevitably create an expectation of decent realism and consequential actions with the premise of the trillion dollar expedition. And then fails miserably at it.

I can't see how it fails to create the consequential actions of a trillion dollar expedition when everyone in the film save for two die and their mission was a complete disaster. The movie didn't fail at anything, it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

Gendo'sPapa has a point, Q did nothing to justify the stupidity of the character's actions and it still gets a free pass for people to say "You're missing the point!" if you point this out. If everyone attacked all movies the way they do Prometheus there would be no such thing as a good movie.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Bagheera » Wed May 24, 2017 1:58 am

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:I can't see how it fails to create the consequential actions of a trillion dollar expedition when everyone in the film save for two die and their mission was a complete disaster. The movie didn't fail at anything, it did exactly what it was supposed to do.


It fails to establish why these characters were selected for such an important mission when more competent people were undoubtedly available.

Gendo'sPapa has a point, Q did nothing to justify the stupidity of the character's actions and it still gets a free pass for people to say "You're missing the point!" if you point this out.


That's not true, though. As Ornette has pointed out on more than one occasion the characters in Q weren't all that stupid after all.

Also, people only say "You're missing the point!" when you bring up questions that are irrelevant to the story at hand (like "What's Mari's backstory?" or "What happened during the timeskip?"). There's no such deflection when the questions actually matter to the plot.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Wed May 24, 2017 3:20 am

FriskyIan, my bad, I thought that you meant the Prometheus ship, not the engineer's ship that, up to that point, both audience and characters thought to be a building/cave.
This said, air breathability is no guarantee of harmless air as Reichu has already pointed out. See how the thing was handled in Arrival or the quaranteen the first men on the Moon got despite having been on a presumably sealed off environment all the time...
The little bit of slack I feel one can to cut to Covenant with that regard is that at least they landed in a place that had discernable life forms, as opposed to landing on a desertic (area of) planet with high levels of CO2 and then walking into a cave/building that looks and feels like a Lovecraftian horror...

Again, it's the trillion dollar expedition premise that pretty much sets the movie for failure in the consistency departments. It'd be as if everything went well in Aliens: they rescued Newt, heard about the xenomorphs from her, realised everybody else was doomed, took off and nuked the entire site form orbit, the end. Surely you would have expected some fire and some action, right?

I don't have an opinion on Q on this matter, saw it ages ago, not even sure about making a comparison with the Alien franchise we are discussing here.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby silvermoonlight » Wed May 24, 2017 5:33 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No one ever said making mistakes was inherently bad. It's only bad when your plot requires that everyone make obvious mistakes that real people would never make purely to serve the needs of the plot. I don't think this is a particularly opaque concept, so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you're playing ignorant here.


I agree with this plus this highlights the issues with both Prometheus and Covenant as all fantasy and sci fi movies are built on the idea that we are meant to suspend our disbelief and be pulled in to the world the problem with both of these movies in my view is they push the disbelief factor way to far to the point that it no longer feels real because people's behaviour is ether to strange or really stupid. In Alien and Aliens you can believe everything because everyone is acting as real people would and the desperation feels real and because we can connect with these people and the horrors we are seeing we can grasp the idea of alien queen clinging to a drop ship then tearing an android in half in front of our eyes.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Wed May 24, 2017 8:52 am

If SoD is a "cost" for the intelligent and discerning viewer, one may say that what makes this "cost" worthwhile is the degree of emotions it affords.

Good dialogue, charismatic characters, all help turning a blind eye (most often involuntarily) on smaller plot holes or illogical points. This is possibly why the lack of "prophilaxis" in Aliens is not an issue many acknowledged: by the time it happens, you already had time to connect with Ripley's nightmares, Apone's fanfare and "Vasquez have you ever been taken for a man?/No, have you?"...

Am I the only one who felt more anguish for Bishop having to creep through that duct than for any casualty in Prometheus and possibly A:C (apart from maybe the bloke that burnt alive in the sleep capsule, because it was very much at the beginning)?

To me, it says a lot about the quality of a movie.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Bagheera » Wed May 24, 2017 8:55 am

Bishop was actually scared to do that, so no, you're not the only one.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Wed May 24, 2017 9:03 am

True that. "I might be synthetic, but I'm not stupid"...

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Postby BobBQ » Wed May 24, 2017 12:31 pm

View Original PostFalcon_of_the_Sun wrote:Am I the only one who felt more anguish for Bishop having to creep through that duct than for any casualty in Prometheus?

Not at all!

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Postby Defectron » Wed May 24, 2017 8:23 pm

So I saw alien covenent today. While not as good s the first two movies, it's by far the best thing to come out of the franchise since aliens imo. I really liked David in this movie, he's really grown as a character since promethius and I was kinda rooting for him to win honestly if just because weve never seen a xenomorph whisperer before and I kinda want to see all the weird places David can take that. The directing in the movie was also pretty beautiful too.

That being said the movie still had some problems, some of which being the same as promethius. Such as walking around an alien planet without environmental suits. Someone got sick? Really? What a shock! Also why was there some kind of flammable gas leak inside a cryo pod?
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Postby Chuckman » Wed May 24, 2017 8:35 pm

That was space propane for the space barbecue.

You'd think they'd leave that behind, and take only the essentials for the initial survey mission, which must be conducted by hand and on foot for some reason. I guess all the mapping gadgets and science stuff they had in Prometheus is too expensive for a colony mission.

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Thu May 25, 2017 8:03 am

What I now "hate" about Covenant is that the infection through spores was pretty unnecessary. They could have been attacked by the neomorphs (or whatever the white beasts are called) sooner and their bite or whatever could have caused the illness and death from inside. Or something. :uhh:

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby silvermoonlight » Thu May 25, 2017 8:33 am

View Original PostFalcon_of_the_Sun wrote:What I now "hate" about Covenant is that the infection through spores was pretty unnecessary. They could have been attacked by the neomorphs (or whatever the white beasts are called) sooner and their bite or whatever could have caused the illness and death from inside. Or something. :uhh:


The weird thing is they could have had neomorphs eggs that opened similar to the aliens face huggers and done it that way and what could have come out through the human DNA mix could have looked like a proper Xeno and been a one off mutation that stuck because its better. Because no matter how clever David is I just couldn't grasp that he would be be able to engineer aliens that way because it would decades to even understand the science involved left by the Space jockeys. To us it would be like the equivalent of giving a Capuchin Monkey a gun and expecting the monkey to know how to pull trigger and load the gun barrel with a bullets.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu May 25, 2017 10:30 am

My biggest issue with Covenant thus far:

Alien: Covenant  SPOILER: Show
The David reveal invalidates not only the rest of the Alien franchise, but Alien and Prometheus as well. If David created the xenomorphs how did they wind up in the Engineer mural seen in Prometheus? Moreover, if David killed off the Engineers before he created the xenomorphs, how did one wind up getting killed by a chestburster while transporting a hold full of eggs? These are not mere nitpicks; the mural isn't that big of a deal, but the David-as-creator route makes the whole setup for Alien impossible.


I really don't know what Scott was thinking when he made that decision.
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