[Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby silvermoonlight » Sat May 20, 2017 4:13 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:It does matter, though, that the dialogue is so often cringe-inducingly terrible, and the characterization so regularly sophomoric in its execution, that the best character in the film is the one who actually benefits from the script's inability to portray realistic people.


I agree with that the script is the back bone and skeleton of a story if its not strong and badly plotted out without thought, care or love for the franchise no amount of good acting or CG1 is going to fix it, because the backbone is damaged and that's what a lot of franchises are doing right now there pushing out broken scripts and using CGI spectral to throw you. Its lazy and insulting in my view because the originals writers put there heart and soul in to making something you love so the sequels and reboots should be doing the same instead of seeing you as dollar or pound sign that they can shove in there pocket...
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby BobBQ » Sat May 20, 2017 9:41 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Everything wrong with this movie

Some of that stuff is straight out of the rejected Alien 3 scripts. I wish I was making this up.

TheFriskyIan wrote:I really wish people would stop lashing out against movies that aren't cookie cutter formulas and makes them think.

The only thing Prometheus made me think was that scientific illiterates should not be allowed to write or direct science fiction.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Reichu » Sat May 20, 2017 11:54 pm

Just got out of a viewing of Covenant. Went with my brother and his longtime friend, so we had a nice nerdy conversation afterward. It was fun; I had a good time. Unfortunately, the projection was WAYYYY too dark and the blacks were crushed, making it hard to see what was going on, so I'm looking forward to the next time.

I found the characters more believably human than those in Prometheus. More natural, not so blatantly contrived. I already knew David was going to be over the top, so I enjoyed the insanity. Biggest flaw IMO was that the part of the film in the Engineer city didn't get to breathe enough. Much MUCH too rushed.

The many callbacks to previous Alien films, including the cutting room floor stuff, made my inner nerd happy. David's saga brings enough new stuff to the table to keep things fresh, as well.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Sun May 21, 2017 12:02 am

Hurray!

Welcome to the right side of history, Reichu! I'm looking forward to seeing it again tomorrow!

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 21, 2017 12:43 am

View Original PostGendo'sPapa wrote:Welcome to the right side of history, Reichu! I'm looking forward to seeing it again tomorrow!

Heh, we'll see, won't we? :D I'd definitely like to see it again on the big screen, but I'm worried about encountering the darkness issue again and being out another $12-$15. I suppose I could preempt the issue by making sure the theater provides a refund if it happens. Makes me wonder if I should raise a stink about the shitty image from the viewing I went to, as well. The refund policy listed on AMC's webpage doesn't even mention the possibility of technical problems, just that you can't get your money back after playtime starts, which isn't encouraging...
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 21, 2017 12:52 am

See it at a Cinemark theater. I never go to AMC theaters anymore, which is a tale in itself.

Also I can't believe that you came out of that movie thinking that human beings behave or talk like any of those characters, except maybe Tennessee.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 21, 2017 1:06 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:Also I can't believe that you came out of that movie thinking...

Why can't you believe it, precisely? (Unless this is rhetoric shorthand for "That's so retarded I can't believe anyone would think such a thing, shame on you".) You might also take note that what you think I think is not actually what I wrote.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 21, 2017 1:35 am

I'm sorry you're insulted by what I said but I didn't intend a personal criticism of you. I chose my wording poorly and I apologize.

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 21, 2017 2:29 am

Thanks, Chuckman. I messed up, too -- see PM -- and I apologize for that.

Did a search for nearby Cinemarks and the closest one is about 45 minutes away. Wouldn't be my preference. I'll probably just stick to my plan of calling around the local theaters and make sure they guarantee a quality image or my money back. And nag the fuck out of AMC. That shit is inexcusable. Wonder if I'll be able to convince the BF to go with me the second time, though. Hate going to the theater alone, but he doesn't care for the Alien flicks. (I know, right? That's grounds for a break-up right there!)
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 21, 2017 3:04 am

I think that regardless of whatever their website says, if you complain at the theater after the show they'll at least give you a free ticket. I tried to see Doctor Strange at an AMC theater on opening night and they gave out free passes after they were unable to get the film to play. Apparently, digitally projected movies are streamed now? That's what they said at the time but that seems nuts.

The more I think about this movie the more I realize the script needs some simple rewrites. It felt badly paced, to me, for the sheer number of things that happen in one movie and an excess of characters. Outside of the Daniels, Tennessee, the captain who wasn't memorable enough for me to catch the character's name, and the androids, everyone else felt superfluous. I couldn't tell who was who and what they did and where they were at key points in the story and it made things difficult to follow. The only one of the background crew members who stood out was the guy with the accent.

I said I can't believe anyone found the characters believable because, while they all emoted and played their roles effectively, the script just flat out lets them down. I can't fathom real human beings taking the pre-xenomorph weirdness in such relaxed stride; the only member of the crew who makes a comment about the oddities of the planet has more of a "oh that's odd" than a "what the hell" reaction to their discoveries.

The problem I think is twofold: the movie is badly paced with two many plot points for its run, and it knows the audience is not going to be overly wowed. It's afraid to waste time on a sense of wonder, awe, or the uncanny in the second act out of recognition that, while it's all very nice looking, there isn't much here that Prometheus didn't already show us. The most vivid and interesting parts of the film take place in flashback, where the cast members can't see and therefore don't react to it, and can't help build the human connection that comes from empathizing with and sharing the protagonist's reactions.

Speaking of which, it lacks a clear protagonist. Who is the main character of this movie? Daniels? Walter? Billy Cudrup? If it's meant to be an ensemble movie, it fails; no one in the cast feels really fleshed out.

Knowing Ridley Scott's work, I'm very curious to see a director's cut of this movie. I feel like a lot was left on the cutting room floor and we ended up with shortchanged characters and a lot of excised setup material that might justify things like Curdrup's dialogue that doesn't really seem to connect to anything or go anywhere.

I was genuinely surprised that you didn't come out of the movie ripping it up.

Edit: I've come to understand that the kind of scenes I suspected were cut are on YouTube as promotional materials. Let me just say, fuck the entire concept of making me hunt down scenes that are important to a movie under the assumption that I want to watch commercials as a passtime.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Reichu » Sun May 21, 2017 4:06 am

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I was genuinely surprised that you didn't come out of the movie ripping it up.

Probably comes down to whether or not there's enough going on in the film to keep my attention in a good way. If I'm bored and not engaged, then, yes, I'll start griping. If I'm enjoying myself, then I'll just sit back and take in the sights, without regard for whether I "ought to be" noticing everything wrong with the movie. I absolutely do have a predisposition to be overly pedantic and nitpick -- hence your genuine surprise, I assume -- so when my brain doesn't default into that mode that's a sign to me to just go with the flow. "You too can have fun, Rachel! DO NOT RESIST THE FUN!"

It felt badly paced, to me, for the sheer number of things that happen in one movie and an excess of characters. Outside of the Daniels, Tennessee, the captain who wasn't memorable enough for me to catch the character's name, and the androids, everyone else felt superfluous.

Pacing seemed fine to me until people started infected, and then it's like it hit "fast-forward" on everything. Implantations: instantaneous! Gestations: take all of five minutes! Maturation into an adult achieved in ten! Hey, Ridley, let go of the throttle there, buddy. If you're going to trap everyone in a storm system that "could last months", take advantage of the time. You remember the ol' slow burn, don't ya? Due to the wonders of editing, this doesn't necessarily have the make the movie any longer -- it just requires different artistic decisions! Sigh. Of course, I would have happily taken a slightly longer movie, if it meant getting to spend more time in the city, building up intrigue about what happened there and what the hell David is up to. Yeah, I read spoilers so I already knew, but the experience generated by the movie is what actually matters.

"Too many characters" isn't something that made much difference to me on a first viewing. Hell, first several times I watched Aliens, you think I could identify all of the marines by name? I can now, but that's because I've seen the movie over a dozen times. I also recall reviews from around the time of Alien's release that bashed the characters -- now a thoroughly-lauded ensemble -- for being a bunch of forgettable cut-outs. Some "weaknesses" ripen into strengths with time. First impressions can change. Doesn't mean they will, but it happens often enough in film to demand at least some caution.

(BTW, from memory: the captain guy was Oram. :wink: )

Knowing Ridley Scott's work, I'm very curious to see a director's cut of this movie. I feel like a lot was left on the cutting room floor and we ended up with shortchanged characters and a lot of excised setup material that might justify things like Curdrup's dialogue that doesn't really seem to connect to anything or go anywhere.

Might be the same situation as Prometheus, where he sticks to his guns and refuses to produce an alternate cut. But odds are we'll at least get some cut scenes that can be elegantly slotted in place.

I should have more useful things to say once (if) I catch the movie again and, this time, can actually see everything I'm supposed to see.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun May 21, 2017 2:09 pm

I'll go on record and say that, while I didn't like Prometheus, I did respect it. And I enjoyed watching a respectable movie.

I mean, I love all of the concepts in Prometheus, and I get excited at every Ridley Scott movie simply or the visuals. But David's writing is very much a style of writing that is more focused on the journey ahead (sequels) and not the story he's telling now. Furthermore, while the concepts in Prometheus are wonderful and existentially terrifying, knowing something more about a creature that is designed from head to toe to be alien (hence the original title) seems contradictory and inconsistent. Prometheus has a great premise, but you wonder if it would have done better in either another franchise, or simply starting its own franchise from scratch. And even if we can become comfortable with the idea of knowing more about the Alien (fuck the "Xenomorph" name as a scientific categorization, "xeno" is a Greek word that literally translates into "alien," thereby clarifying nothing), there's the fact that Prometheus and Alien Covenant are all prequels leading up to the Alien film, and not sequels. If they were sequels, the narrative might more conveniently transition from the fear of the unknown (Alien) to moving beyond that after knowing the origins of the alien and transitioning more towards the existential fear of an angry and vengeful Creator. But now that we're making prequels and not sequels, we're not moving in that direction. Instead we get stories about a great and dreadful existential fear of a vengeful creator bent on your destruction, all leading up to a simple narrative of the "What the heck is this and how do I get it to stop killing me?" premise of Alien. The fact that the films are arranged like this takes all of the steam out of Alien, rather than building upon the concepts of Alien towards a greater horror.

Either way, I'll probably watch Prometheus again before watching Alien Covenant. Like I said, great concepts, I just don't know how I feel about the franchise to which it's happening.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 21, 2017 2:47 pm

I agree. Prometheus should have been its own thing and if you took the Alien references and designs out of A:C you'd not only lose nothing but the film would be dramatically improved.

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Sun May 21, 2017 3:38 pm

View Original PostTheFriskyIan wrote:They were. And chances are they're going to nitpick this one just because they hated Prometheus and they want to hate this one too, like a lot of the people on the other end of the divisive camp this movie has supposedly made.


No, no, no.

I for one I seriously hated Prometheus (i.e. I think it's an objectively bad movie and I did not enjoy it, I was praying for it to end) and I quite liked A: (i.e. I think most of the flaws Chuckman has painstakingly pointed out are correct, but at least the movie gave me a thrill and made me laugh).

Three simple things that alone relegate Prometheus to the realm of some of the worst sci-fi movies ever made:

1 - A trillion dollar mission that should realistically represent the pinnacle of human research and enterprise into space has more than one crew member who is clearly mentally impaired AND bad at their job anyway. The moment this stupidty is not just in the background but it is actually instrumentally used to advance the plot, I'm gonna throw my toys out of the pram (sorry to have repeated myself from a previous post). Covenant is not as bad when it comes to this.

2 - Once the aforementioned champions of humanity get into a place which seems to be void of any macroscopic lifeform and that oozes death from its freaking walls, they get their helmets off and expose themselves to whatever it might have been there that made that place that bad. The Covenant planet at least had vegetation plus pre-approved life-compatibvle conditions

3 - Charlize Theron can only run in a straight line

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Chuckman » Sun May 21, 2017 3:53 pm

Can we drop the last one? It's not a valid criticism. Fight or flight responses are anathema to thinking things through.

The big flaw with both these movies is lazy writing.

In the original Alien the characters do things right and get slaughtered anyway. When Kane gets face hugged, the facehugger goes right through his helmet.

The cosmic nihilistic Lovecrsctian element depends on that. The Alien species is beyond us, despite their incomprehensible insectoid form. Your precautions don't work because they just go right through them.

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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun May 21, 2017 3:57 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I agree. Prometheus should have been its own thing and if you took the Alien references and designs out of A:C you'd not only lose nothing but the film would be dramatically improved.

Well, I feel as though the films themselves could still be improved upon if they were simply sequels and not prequels. That way we can at least have a progression of ideas as opposed to a regression of ideas. But ultimately, yes, these movies would be killer awesome if they had simply started their own franchise from scratch. They might have even been one of my favorite movies of the decade if they had done so. (Or, at least Prometheus could have done that. I still haven't watched A:C yet, so I dunno.)
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sun May 21, 2017 7:28 pm

View Original PostFalcon_of_the_Sun wrote:I for one I seriously hated Prometheus (i.e. I think it's an objectively bad movie and I did not enjoy it, I was praying for it to end)

The film is 50/50 divided and therefor there is no majority view on it being a horrible film. You're free to think it's a bad movie but it's by no means an objective viewpoint. Every minor flaw people bitch about in Prometheus has been debated to death yet people will still make ridiculous claims like "It's an objectively bad movie. I'm not trying to say it's perfect, but if there's one objective thing about the quality of the movie, it's that it gets way more hate than it deserves.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun May 21, 2017 7:38 pm

^ One can make the claim that, objectively speaking, the characters' actions in Prometheus are more infuriating than the actions of the characters in the original Alien movie, simply because the "characters acting stupid in horror films" is more forgivable when all of the characters In Alien are just normal schmoes driving a space truck, while the characters in Prometheus are supposed to be experienced scientists and astronauts trained to interact with and take the proper precautions against interplanetary life forms, and yet they still do the same stupid stuff.
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Re: [Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby Falcon_of_the_Sun » Mon May 22, 2017 4:46 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:^ One can make the claim that, objectively speaking, the characters' actions in Prometheus are more infuriating than the actions of the characters in the original Alien movie, simply because the "characters acting stupid in horror films" is more forgivable when all of the characters In Alien are just normal schmoes driving a space truck, while the characters in Prometheus are supposed to be experienced scientists and astronauts trained to interact with and take the proper precautions against interplanetary life forms, and yet they still do the same stupid stuff.


There you go. ^_^

I'll accept the fight or flight thing Chuckman mentioned (it did come at a time by which the movie was already compromised), but those other two points are pretty undisputable when it comes to show lazy writing in which so many characters seem to have so little foresight or common sense. And having those seems an incredibly cheap way to make astounding things happen in a movie...

Also, I think that a 50/50 split in the audience in a more or less conventional flick is a seriously bad result. Because I'm sure that if you were to get the same people to express their view on something like Aliens, Close Encounters, Back to the Future etc, the haters will be well in the single digit, which is a massive, massive difference compared to a 50/50.

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Postby TheFriskyIan » Mon May 22, 2017 11:02 am

View Original PostFalcon_of_the_Sun wrote:Also, I think that a 50/50 split in the audience in a more or less conventional flick is a seriously bad result. Because I'm sure that if you were to get the same people to express their view on something like Aliens, Close Encounters, Back to the Future etc, the haters will be well in the single digit, which is a massive, massive difference compared to a 50/50.

Well considering it's not a conventional flick, that means nothing. Trying to equate a film like Prometheus with a flick like Back To The Future is just silly.
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