[Film] Prometheus + Sequels

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Postby kc414 » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:48 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:(And on the second, i honestly never found any horror within NGE)


Don't you think "The End of Evangelion" contained a bit of horror?
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:08 pm

View Original Postkc414 wrote:Don't you think "The End of Evangelion" contained a bit of horror?


Outside of the "horror of war" sense, not so much. I mean, watching the MPEs munching on Unit 02 was rough, and the GNR business was . . . :uhh: . . . but I never got the sort of "terrible unknown" vibe that makes things like Alien or The Thing work as well as they do.

(and, to stay on topic, I never really got that from Prometheus either. But maybe I have the concept of horror as a predatory element too fixed in my mind, I dunno.)
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Postby Dream » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:16 pm

View Original Postkc414 wrote:Don't you think "The End of Evangelion" contained a bit of horror?


I thought the Komm Susser Todd scene, Asuka's death (Just in case, no i don't hate her) and most scenes regarding GNR Rei were beautiful (Plus a few others i can't remember right now). I don't know if that answers your question.

Things like the soldiers killing defenseless people were upsetting/depressing indeed but i definitively didn't feel anything even resembling fear when watching EoE.
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Postby kc414 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:51 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:I thought the Komm Susser Todd scene, Asuka's death (Just in case, no i don't hate her) and most scenes regarding GNR Rei were beautiful (Plus a few others i can't remember right now). I don't know if that answers your question.

Things like the soldiers killing defenseless people were upsetting/depressing indeed but i definitively didn't feel anything even resembling fear when watching EoE.


Totally get it now. I was mistankely thinking that disturbing images equals "horror." Not necessarily, I liked that definition from Bagheera, "horror" is that feeling of "the terrible unknown."

Although "The Shining" is full of disturbing images that I'd qualify as "horror."
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Postby gchristnsn » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:40 am

Hi.

It seems, that Prometheus uses the same obfuscation technique that was used on NGE, and there are so many common features, that it makes to believe that NGE was taken as a base for the some part of the plot of Promehteus.

The common features of the both stories

Two-fold name

In NGE it names fighting machines and the hidden story: the Kabbalistic salvation of the humanity by transformation of it into Adam Kadmon through an artificially created messiah, this resembles the events from the Gospel, and evangelion means gospel in Greek.

In Prometheus it names the spaceship and denotes the process of the creation of the humanity through direct reference to mythological Prometheus (the person who created the humanity remembers a figure from the Greek epos).

Creation of the humanity through a demiurge and biotechnology

In NGE the demiurge is Lilith created by the first ancestral race which referenced as "God".

In Prometheus this is the person which resembles a Greek titan from the
race of progenitors which formally is a god of the humanity.

Only explainable through religion

Seele's fear of blasphemy.

Behaviour of the progenitors.

Possible use of DNA markers

In the mechanism of forbidden reunion.

To distinguish descendants from the progenitors.

Some facts could be obtained only through visual hints

Pillars of salt at the South Pole and Terminal Dogma.

Difference in the level of technology (the sanctuary and Vickers' module).

Presence of a heavy symbolic layer which hides or overlaps the substrate layer (so, at least two non-contradictory intrerpretations of base plot in different contexts could be obtained)

In NGE the symbolic layer is Kabbalah and the substrate layer is the alien biotechnology of the first ancestral race.

In Prometheus the symbolic layer is religious and the substrate layer is the Alien franchise.

Deconstruction (when you see not what you expect but told that you would not see anything suspicious)

mecha/shounen

Superiority between the progenitors, humans and androids.

The layer of meaning based on the deconstruction

Theme of solitude.

Theme of choice between natural and technical development.

Heavily disconnected base plot

In the both cases.


So, the movie also contains a hidden story (it's related to the fact that the progenitors or engineers had intentionally limited their technological development), and you may try to figure it out by yourself.

Just FYI, no discussion is implied.
Some information on NME

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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:48 pm

Last night I re-watched Prometheus with a friend who'd never seen it before. I was expecting to find it less engaging the second time around, because I'd be painfully aware of all the crap people have been complaining about for the last six months. Turns out I ended up finding most of the complaints to have even less basis in reality than I'd initially expected.

SPOILER: Show
Except for the scene where Charlize Theron gets crushed by the toilet seat. That will never stop being silly.

The scene in particular that makes too much sense is the bit with the stoner geologist, the gay biologist and the rubber penis snake. The biologist was never scared of the damn thing, it was the geologist going into hysterics over shit and the biologist mostly followed him around because he was obviously sexually attracted to him and wanted his affections returned. (The captain even makes a joke to highlight the subtext: "Try not to bugger each other down there, boys.") Therefore, upon getting horribly lost and encountering an alien snake, the biologist--thinking like a biologist and not a member of a horror movie audience--would not expect the damn thing to be strong enough to crush his arm or have acid for blood. At worst, he was expecting the penis snake to bite him and he's wearing a thick rubber suit, so who cares?

My friend complained about neither of those things and just thought David was a dick for poisoning Holloway.


I also watched the much touted thirty minutes of deleted scenes.

SPOILER: Show
A lot of it was minor stuff that highlighted subtext or expanded on details. Of the twelve scenes available, only about half really contributed anything noteworthy.

The first is a forty second clip of the geologist finding non-mutated worms and gushing about them, which--had it made the final cut--would probably have deterred a lot of bitching.

The second is an alternate version of Shaw and Holloway getting freaky, in which he is drunk and angry and yells at her for expecting God to answer why her parents died, at which point she smacks him a bunch of times and he grabs her and starts apologizing and they have rough apology sex right on the spot. The scene is a bit rapey. Like, borderline-Ayn Rand novel rapey. The Holloway character manages to come off as an even bigger dick in the deleted scenes. In this one, and a minute clip that should immediately proceed the exploding head scene where Shaw talks about an African creation myth where the sun makes people because it's alone. Holloway, already drunk off his ass, totally spoils the mood by yelling out "They're dead, we're still alone!"

The third is a scene where the captain comes to comfort Charlize Theron in her library after she immolates Holloway with a flame thrower. He starts telling her about how he used to be in the military and there was this base where they spilled something and all the scientists started fleeing, and there was this fence erected, but it wasn't to keep people out, it was to keep people in. He then deduces that the Engineers also spilled something and that he doesn't blame her for killing a man. Being the frigid bitch that she is, she says she doesn't care that she killed someone, she just burned her hand. This scene is a nice follow-up to the weirdly-out-of-place "You wanna get laid?" scene and a better lead-in to the captain later telling Shaw that he thinks the pyramid is a WMD base.

The fourth is an extended version of the scene where Charlize Theron talks to old man Weyland. I see why it was trimmed, as the final scene more or less conveys all the relevant character motivation adequately, but there's a certain tenderness and nuance to the extended version that leads to a better pay off in regards to the absolute bitterness in the whole father reveal.

The fifth is the extended version of the scene where David wakes up the final engineer. They speak in their fantastical ancient language and there's some semblance of a conversation. The most relevant bit is where the Engineer asks why Weyland wants to live longer and he responds with something like "I made robots, so I'm a creator like you and we're gods." Then the engineer does that whole mock-angelic petting David thing, before abruptly ripping off his head and using it to beat Weyland to death.

The last relevant bit is the extended version of the final scene with Shaw and the Engineer in the remains of Charlize Theron's fancy space cabin. It's a bit more of a cat and mouse game, with Shaw hiding and as the Engineer looks for her, he studies the wall-monitors and feels the crystal chandeliers, and the cumulative effect is that this creature is an intelligent being, rather than the murderous brute you see in the final cut.

The alternate opening and endings don't add much. You see some more Engineers in robes and then at the end, David says the place the Engineers come from roughly translates to "Paradise", and also Shaw is mean to David. She calls him a "fucking robot" and shoves him in the bag by grabbing his hair. If you recall, in the final version, there was no expletive and Shaw delicately places him in the bag while saying "Sorry".
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:05 pm

Oh man. I feel like I should respond since I was one of the ones bitching up a storm, but at this point I'm so over that movie that I can't bring myself to do it. I'm glad you found it tolerable though.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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Postby child of Lilith » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:13 pm

Muggs wrote:I also watched the much touted thirty minutes of deleted scenes.
Some of that stuff was cut for obvious reasons, but the rest would definitely have made the movie more tolerable had it been left in. Have to wonder what they were thinking when they removed it in the first place. :chinscratch:
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:31 pm

I viewed the movie a second time, as well. It felt kind of weird, seeing it on a (relatively) small screen, without surround sound... (No "home theater" for me, just a big flatscreen.) I didn't linger on the laundry list of complaints too much, but having immersed myself recently in sublime TV character dramas like Mad Men and Breaking Bad, Prometheus' weaknesses in character and dialogue definitely popped out.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:43 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I viewed the movie a second time, as well. It felt kind of weird, seeing it on a (relatively) small screen, without surround sound... (No "home theater" for me, just a big flatscreen.) I didn't linger on the laundry list of complaints too much, but having immersed myself recently in sublime TV character dramas like Mad Men and Breaking Bad, Prometheus' weaknesses in character and dialogue definitely popped out.


Yeah, quality television (and quality movies, for that matter) tends to make the standard fare much less watchable. You can't go home again, and all that.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby riffraff11235 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:49 pm

I concur. Watching Breaking Bad last year and Firefly more recently has definitely caused me to raise my standards a bit.

The reckless abandon demonstrated by the biologist in the face of an alien life form kinda bugged me. You'd think the people chosen to be ambassadors for the human race would be a bit smarter than that.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgLNQiZbivM[/url]

I just watched 14 minutes of the deleted scenes. Are there really half-an-hour's worth?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:54 pm

View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:The reckless abandon demonstrated by the biologist in the face of an alien life form kinda bugged me. You'd think the people chosen to be ambassadors for the human race would be a bit smarter than that.


The lack of quality control when choosing the team is just bizarre. It's fine when the movie's about space truckers, but a research team should be made of better stuff.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby riffraff11235 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:58 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The lack of quality control when choosing the team is just bizarre. It's fine when the movie's about space truckers, but a research team should be made of better stuff.


Definitely. You'd expect the scruffy-looking geologist to show less caution than the biologist, who might actually know a thing or two about the hazards of dealing with unknown organisms. Maybe they went for the opposite in order to add some irony and/or play with our initial perceptions?

Then again, Weyland was kind of a kook to begin with, so if he personally chose the team it may not be too surprising that a few outliers got in.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:42 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yeah, quality television (and quality movies, for that matter) tends to make the standard fare much less watchable. You can't go home again, and all that.

This is an oft-repeated sentiment these days, but it's absolutely boggling why the same amount of care isn't put into the script that is put into the sheen of cinematic spectacle. It's like an old lesson I learned about drawing: make sure your line and form is good before you bother with the detail and shading work.

Prometheus could have been dramatically improved by the most basic of rewrites, which makes the whole thing quite tragic. How did a sound script ever become an optional part of movie-making?
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:52 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This is an oft-repeated sentiment these days, but it's absolutely boggling why the same amount of care isn't put into the script that is put into the sheen of cinematic spectacle. It's like an old lesson I learned about drawing: make sure your line and form is good before you bother with the detail and shading work.

Prometheus could have been dramatically improved by the most basic of rewrites, which makes the whole thing quite tragic. How did a sound script ever become an optional part of movie-making?


If I were feeling more bitter I would speculate on the matter, but there's no need to make us all depressed! :lol: Suffice it to say I agree.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby riffraff11235 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:02 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:How did a sound script ever become an optional part of movie-making?

At least in the case of action/adventure movies, I think the movie-makers realize that they can appeal to a much larger crowd by focusing on amazing visuals rather than an engaging narrative. I can appreciate that in a movie, but it is annoying to see a film that you know could have been so much more if only a little more attention had been given to the writing.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:09 pm

riffraff: I don't know if it's a "realization", or just a justification for laziness, oversight, and getting out of touch in general. "Character and story" vs. "spectacle" is a false dilemma.
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Postby riffraff11235 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:14 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:riffraff: I don't know if it's a "realization", or just a justification for laziness, oversight, and getting out of touch in general. "Character and story" vs. "spectacle" is a false dilemma.

You have a point. While one is mostly a matter of money, the other is more a matter of dedication and care. Good writing doesn't necessarily need to be "2deep4u"; it just needs to work.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:53 pm

Lowest common denominator, m'dear. If they don't have to bother with a decent script to see success, why would they?

(and here I said I wouldn't get all depressing and shit. Ah well.)
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Defectron » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:17 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The lack of quality control when choosing the team is just bizarre. It's fine when the movie's about space truckers, but a research team should be made of better stuff.


Well even in the case of a "space trucker" if you make a living doing something in unfamiliar environments, its common sense to familiarize yourself with basic safety procedeurs so that you don't get killed.
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