A Question on Gender

Over time, notable threads from ANF will be preserved here for the Benefit of All.

Moderators: Ornette, Monk Ed

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

MagicianCamille wrote:Pilots can only synchronize with their mother's souls?


Haven't quite worked out the details yet. But there is a special connection there that is hard to get otherwise -- yes.

This is why nobody loves you.


...or do they?

@Sharp: Thanks. I'll add that to FGC sometime.

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 05:07 GMT

Sharp-kun [ANF]
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Posts: 406
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

Reichu wrote:@Sharp: Thanks. I'll add that to FGC sometime.

Mechs bleeding is a staple of Go Nagai anime. He tends to portray the machines as "human" as possible, often using lighting and camera angles to have the faces appear to express emotion, even though they haven't actually changed. Ep 4 of the Mazinkaiser anime has some good examples of this.

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 05:15 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

I would reply to that, but I am succumbing to my sleeping drugz, so I would make absolutely no sense. Thus, I shall leave this to occupy you and run away beneath the sheets.

Image

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 05:30 GMT

Sharp-kun [ANF]
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Posts: 406
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

I envy your sleep. x_x

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 05:30 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

i envy yor ovries

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 05:35 GMT

Seele08 [ANF]
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 568
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

I envy Reichu for being in Herr Lorenz's bedroom for so long. *giggles.

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 05:39 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:23 am

Reichu wrote:There are "bleeding" robots in MGS2, as well. Except those are a lot cooler-looking. (For the organically-biased, anyway.)


A robot from MGS2 is cooler than Great Mazinger? I don't know you... Image

Sharp-kun wrote:Robots don't have gender. Image Image

I don't know about that, dude. Aphrodite-A? I'd tap that.

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 06:18 GMT

Dr. Nick [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 624
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Sharp-kun wrote:Robots don't have gender.

Image
NONO DISAGREES!

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 12:09 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

I've started a draft for a preliminary "In Depth" page on the Sex issue. (I had a clever title for it, which I promptly forgot before I could write it down. Dammit.) I'm basically just going to lay out EVERYTHING that aligns Evas and SoLs with "feminine"/"female". Here is what I've scribbled out so far for the Evas, without any formatting, links, or images, so forgive its unrefined nature. Mostly, I'm just interested in any immediate suggestions, and things that my brain is glossing over at the moment. (Yes, it really DOES happen!)

:goes off to work on SoLs:
In Depth: Of Evas, SoLs, and Ovaries

Once one gets over the fact that the Evas aren't robots after all, but giant humanoids who have been imprisoned via cybernetic invasion of the central nervous system, what is the next stage of inquiry? Why, "what's their sex?", of course!

If something is not "familiarly human", people tend to default to "it". (But see my issues with pronouns here.) Even though the Evas are identified as human (using NGE's redefinition of the term), people still oftentimes cannot look beyond the "alien" exterior, when, in fact, we are SUPPOSED to look beyond it. A subject for elsewhere, though.

Additionally, one of the overarching themes of NGE is the importance of the mother to the human existence, and the Evas are a blatant part of this theme. So, too, are Earth's two Sources of Life, Adam and Lilith. But, if you take everything the show tells you at face value, we are not just being handed "thematic mothers", but "physical females", as well.

Even though the status of these entities as females is not "terribly important" in the grand scheme of things, it's still something that I think should be acknowledged. I certainly do think that if the show is "read" in a straightforward and nondismissive manner -- i.e., you listen to IT and play by ITS rules -- this is one of those things that should be so elementary, once the evidence is laid out and given the nod, that there shouldn't even be any argument.

Since the Evas are given the most coverage, we'll start with them.

But, first off, I would like to point out that the moniker of "Eva" (short for "Evangelion", but also, of relevance here, German for "Eve") ultimately does not count as evidence here. The reason for this is the case of Adam's own name: It is only used in a loose thematic sense that disregards sex; ergo, none of the other esoteric names can be used as a basis for gender. The Evas are only named such because they are, like the Eva/Eve (or Chavvah, if you're a stickler like me) of Genesis, made from the body of Adam. But, on an aside, they seem to have a bit more in common with their Adam than the Eve of Genesis has with hers.

Moving right along.

(1) "She"

Japanese uses pronouns far more sparingly than English -- FAR. The pronoun "it" has no direct equivalent, either. The language works much differently in this regard.

In the show, the Evas are almost universally regarded by the cast as mere "things", artificial constructs without sentience -- and the characters who know better would, in most situations, have to maintain this pernicious myth. (Most of the NGE-related publications treat the Evas in a similar manner.) But, incidentally, there ARE two occasions (AFAIK) when a pronoun is actually used: "kanojo", "she". Let me point out straightaway that, no, Japanese ships, et al., are not called "she". Only females. English and Japanese are completely different languages, remember.

The first instance is when EVA-01 goes "batshit crazy" against Zeruel in #19. After Maya informs us of Shinji's synchronization rate, Ritsuko says, "Yahari mezameta no? ...Kanojo ga." That's basically "Japanese-stream-of-thought" talk for, "Does this mean that she has awakened?" Of course, those looking to brush this one off like to assign the "she" Yui's soul specifically and not EVA-01 herself, since Ritsuko doesn't single out which of the two she's referring to. (Even though, technically, Yui and EVA-01 have really been one and the same ever since that fated day in 2004.) Hence, the Eva is still an "it". Good grief.

The second instance is towards the end of #24, once Kaworu has been "captured". He tells Shinji, "Nigouki wa, kimi ni tomete oite moraita kattanda. Sou shinakereba, kanojo to ikitsuzuketa kamoshirenai kara ne." (Phew!) That basically means, "I wanted you to stop EVA-02. Otherwise, I may have gone on living with her." Exactly what he means by this is unimportant here. What's significant is that Kaworu refers to the Eva, specifically, as "she". Kaworu is used in #24 to convey a HUGE amount of information to the audience, so, like everything else, this little tidbit should not be taken lightly, unless one is willing to dismiss everything else...

(2) Female Souls / Mothers and Motherless Children

It's common knowledge that EVA-01's soul is that of Yui Ikari and EVA-02's is that of Soryu Kyoko Zeppelin. Of course, these are the mothers of their respective pilots, Shinji Ikari and Soryu Asuka Langley. The reason for the Mother-Child/Eva-Pilot connection is a matter for elsewhere.

EVA-00 and Rei is an unusual case. EVA-00 contains another manifestation of Rei, her identity as Rei 1. (This is a mess that still hasn't been fully resolved. But the show itself tells us this much, without explaining how, exactly, it is possible.) Rei, in any of her incarnations, does not have a mother as Shinji and Asuka "did". For Rei 2, Rei 1 is the "next best thing", although the EXACT reason for this is something for elsewhere.

Toji, Kensuke, Hikari, and the other students of Class 2-A are "fourth level candidates" -- whatever exactly that denotes, they are potential Eva pilots. Kensuke tells us that he has no mother, and it is heavily intimated that the other two -- and, by extent, the entire class -- are similarly motherless. (NGE does not like to spoonfeed the audience, after all. "Take a hint, guys.") It has been speculated that Nerv has all of their mothers' bodies preserved in storage -- with their souls contained safely -- in case need for them should ever arise. Of course, only one was ever used, owing to the fact that EVA-04 was lost and Seele used a Dummy System for the rest. In any case, it can be safely said that EVA-03 contained Toji's mother, however briefly.

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 18:01 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

(3) Entry Plug as Womb

The entry plug is a "womb" in and of itself, being a container -- filled with symbolic amniotic fluid, i.e., LCL -- that houses and protects a child. It is also nestled within the body of the mother figure, the Eva -- as long as the mother is safe, the child will be, as well.

(4) Core as Womb

The symbolism gets a bit more convoluted. The core contains the Eva's soul, and the entry plug needs to make contact with it, to the point of actually going INTO it, which is presumably permitted by the core's inherently flexible properties. (This is apparently necessary required for synchronization and the "stimulation" of the A.T. Field -- but that's stuff for elsewhere.) However, the Eva's soul isn't the only thing that's in there:

<insert>

They're spouting LCL! (There is a related example which I will get to presently.) How this LCL got there, and why it's there, isn't ever elaborated upon. But the important part, here, is that it _is_ there, once again serving as our "symbolic amniotic fluid".

In this case, the entry plug's role seems to be reversed. It is playing out a symbolically phallic role, however loosely, depositing this child into the round, fluid-filled "womb". (Incidentally, this reminds me of the archaic notion of the homunculus/spermists, wherein a sperm was speculated to be a complete human being that grew into a child within a woman's uterus. Just a random tidbit.)

(5) Core: Pregnancy Symbolism

Keeping the "core as womb" bit in mind... When EVA-00, in #23', absorbs Armisael into her core, a somewhat grotesque "pregnancy" image is rendered. Even better when you think about how Armisael's namesake is the "Angel of the Womb".

(6) Core: Birth Symbolism

In #20, Shinji's soul finds its way in EVA-01's core ("how" is a matter for elsewhere) and he reembodies from the LCL within. Although we don't see it happen, we do see the aftermath: a naked Shinji belly-down on the umbilical bridge, as the light from EVA-01's core dims down. In essence, he was "reborn" from her core.

(7) Core: Pudendal / Birth Symbolism

In case you are unfamiliar with the term, "pudendal" (typically) refers to the female external genitalia.

Right after the MP Evas "merge" with GNR, Yui-sama busts out her core with a nice, big roar. And there's actually more going on there, if you look closely... The complete picture is not available in the movie itself, owing to the fact that the bottom is cropped off, but, as compensation, the full-size keyframe animation is provided for this cut in Groundwork of EVANGELION The Movie 2.

While I really don't think the black material covering Sho's core would split open this way, this cut rather lucidly conveys the required imagery nonetheless. If you need help making it out: The material straddling the core is forming faux-labiae, and the nucleolae at the core's top and bottom are serving as a mock clitoris and anus, respectively. The core is, in essence, being "birthed", complete with a splatter of "LCL as amniotic fluid".

(8) Core as Yoni

The merging of EVA-01's core with the Spear of Longinus has been identified as an instance of yoni-lingam symbolism. (Much thanks to Hexon.Arq for pointing this out.) In an Eastern tradition originating with the Aryans, the yoni and lingam represent the female and male genitalia, respectively, although the concepts they embody far transcend those of sexual intercourse.

Here, the core is not only a yoni, but an "active" one: Upon being "pricked" by the Spear, it gapes open and forms a vertically-oriented "mouth", the "lips" of which embrace the Spear's tip, upon which physical unification begins.

(9) Core as Erogenous Zone

This really is a bit of a tangent, but, since it neatly consummates the pattern we are seeing here, I may as well point it out: The core is made out to be an erogenous zone on two separate occasions.

The first is the scene wherein EVA-01 merges with the Spear to form the Tree of Life. As the Spear nears her core, note how Shogouki emits a conspicuous low moan. She also has her head thrown back -- a gesture that is somewhat telling and not to be written off, considering the situation. (It's not as if it hasn't been used in NGE before, either -- in a similar but not so self-imposed context.)

The second is, of course, the group suicide of the Ryousanki, within which they skewer themselves on their Spears, through their cores, until they achieve Liberation. Incidentally, the process of nuclear destruction is rather pleasurable and culminates with what I have come to call the "coregasm". (Hopefully, they can be achieved in a non-lethal manner. Yui-sama needs to occupy herself with something during her long journey, after all.)

(10) Vaginal Eye Sockets

The first time that we encounter these is as early as episode #02, wherein EVA-01 regenerates her eye. The new flesh splits open, forming a pink slit from which the eyeball emerges, as if being "born". The likeness to a vagina (what you can see from outside, anyway) is "loose", but how often does the resemblance have to be at all exact for the symbolic counterpart, the phallus?

Next, EVA-02's eyes are nestled in even more suspicious-looking pink sockets. Inconsistently, they look much more vulval/vaginal in some cuts than others, but when they do, they SCREAM it.

I have seen many eyes in my day, but none that were framed by anything so... so...

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 18:02 GMT

Mr. Tines [ANF]
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Posts: 787
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

I think there are people who get it, and people who don't (& won't)*.

The entry-plug as womb symbolism is so "in yer face" - once you get shown in ep#16 that Yui is the guiding intelligence of EVA-01, the rest should all fall into place, if it hasn't already. Niceties of anatomy (especially given certain taboos stemming from the awe in which males hold certain features) really don't count - after all, being female (or male) is really something you keep between your ears, not between your legs.

The rest is just a natural consequence of the obvious (except I'm still not convinced by the eye-sockets).

*Like Asuka, really, until her Mum blew the gaff.

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 18:53 GMT

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
Clockiel
Clockiel
User avatar
Posts: 413
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Sharp-kun wrote:Image

"P-tooie! Waiter! I ordered a Vanilla Coke, NOT a V8! There goes your TIP, mister!"

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 19:45 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Mr. Tines wrote:The rest is just a natural consequence of the obvious (except I'm still not convinced by the eye-sockets).


O RLY?

Personally, once I noticed it, I couldn't seem to shake the image. It seems to me to be very clear. Especially when taken alongside GNR's orifaces that were actually anatomically correct.

Originally posted on: 18-Jan-2006, 08:05 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Mr. Tines wrote:I think there are people who get it, and people who don't (& won't)*.

*Like Asuka, really, until her Mum blew the gaff.


Well, I wasn't specifically asking here for that. More for feedback on the draft itself.

And what is "gaff"? I speak you language not.

Niceties of anatomy (especially given certain taboos stemming from the awe in which males hold certain features) really don't count - after all, being female (or male) is really something you keep between your ears, not between your legs.


That's the psychological side of sex. The core of this (IMO absolutely lameass) debate is the biological one. I'm willing to bet that the Evas don't have anything particularly interesting beneath their titanium thongs (given the lack of "superfluous flesh" overall), so we're really talking about the internal reproductive system here. With the Evas, the show is just using the familiar Lilim naughty bits to, apparently, relate to the audience, "Either you're a bunch of dense morons -- no offense -- or you've figured out by now that these things are chicks. Honestly, haven't you learned that we don't like spoonfeeding you? Jeez-us. Stop obsessing over semantics already."

That does seem to be a lot of what this "debate" is about. Semantics. It's probably safe to say that the creators weren't very concerned with nitpicky details in this regard -- if they even crossed their minds -- otherwise they wouldn't be having these distinctly female references all over the place... "Yes, we are associating them with females precisely because they are NOT female. That makes PERFECT sense, doesn't it?"

Image

In any case, did I miss anything with the Evas specifically? Let Reichu know...

The rest is just a natural consequence of the obvious (except I'm still not convinced by the eye-sockets).


Well, poo to you. Image You'd probably get overruled on that one, heh. Remember the resemblance of most phalluses to what they supposedly represent. There is plenty of room in this world for their counterpart. We really don't have enough of them, in fact.

I will, however, include a disclaimer, just for you.

Originally posted on: 18-Jan-2006, 08:12 GMT

Mr. Tines [ANF]
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Posts: 787
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

The essay piece is fine, and records the case well, with no obvious omissions.

Reichu wrote:And what is "gaff"? I speak you language not.


Slightly archaic UK slang - "Blowing the gaff" is to reveal a plot or secret.

Reichu wrote:Well, poo to you. Image You'd probably get overruled on that one, heh.


Fair enough - I'm not minded to rehash the discussion from a year back on the limited geometries available.

Originally posted on: 18-Jan-2006, 08:25 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Mr. Tines wrote:I'm not minded to rehash the discussion from a year back on the limited geometries available.


Well, considering I said this...
Remember the resemblance of most phalluses to what they supposedly represent.
...is this really a valid basis upon which to dismiss a potential "yoni" or two?

Originally posted on: 18-Jan-2006, 08:40 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Posts: 618
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Reichu wrote:Well, considering I said this...
Remember the resemblance of most phalluses to what they supposedly represent.
...is this really a valid basis upon which to dismiss a potential "yoni" or two?


If you're going to refer to it as a "Yoni", then "Lingam" is the appropriate counterpart, not Phallus. Image

Originally posted on: 18-Jan-2006, 08:55 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

Oh, be quiet, you. IS there actually a counterpart-word for "phallus"?

BTW, I was just fetching some screenies from #07, everyone's favorite episode. Aside from realizing that "berserker" IS actually the official translation for bousou, I was reminded of Tokita's inadvertantly "enlightening" comment: "It's just like a hysterical woman!" Should this one go on the list, just for completeness' sake? Image

Originally posted on: 19-Jan-2006, 04:53 GMT

AcesHigh [ANF]
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 7
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AcesHigh [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:24 am

I think that your explanation on the matter of the Evas being feminine has now removed all doubts. It seems pretty obvious to me now, considering the nature of the three main Evas. The sex of Adam, I think, is still a bit speculative. I recall something that someone said in the other gender thread that perhaps both Adam and Lilith are sexless. This seems like a more logical explanation when I think about such scenes like Rei merging with Lilith (and maybe the opposite? Rei being created from Lilith?) and the creation of the Evas from Adam. Certainly these are not births in the typical human sense.

It would sort of be like assigning a gender to God.

Originally posted on: 19-Jan-2006, 14:09 GMT

Malon [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 1
Joined: May 17, 2009

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Malon [ANF] » Sun May 17, 2009 2:29 am

AcesHigh wrote:It would sort of be like assigning a gender to God.


Which isn't saying anything since God is male. He is supposed to be genderless but regardless Humans have given him a gender.

Originally posted on: 19-Jan-2006, 14:14 GMT


Return to “AnimeNation Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest