Berserk

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:23 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I like the clang. It conveys the absolute absurdity of that weapon really well.

Well, think about it... The Dragonslayer is a massive, solid slab of metal. Why would it sound like a frying pan upon impact? The only time a clang would make some sense is when it hits plate armor or something; otherwise, a variety of sounds conveying the weapon's solid and robust nature would be much more appropriate. It clangs when it hits ghosts, for goodness sake!

Huh, so you're watching this anime? Gonna read the manga too? I assume you'd be bothered by some of the same things that bother me, but it's one of those situations where the work as a whole is so good that some missteps can be forgiven.

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:36 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Well, think about it... The Dragonslayer is a massive, solid slab of metal. Why would it sound like a frying pan upon impact ? The only time a clang would make some sense is when it hits plate armor or something; otherwise, a variety of sounds conveying the weapon's solid and robust nature would be much more appropriate. It clangs when it hits ghosts, for goodness sake!

I know! It's an absurd weapon, so having it make an absurd noise when it connects pleases me. Given the nature of the setting I find it entirely plausible that the blacksmith who created it unwittingly imbued it with a bit of spirit magic (which would explain how it could be used as a weapon in the first place), and the clang might be a side effect of such magic.

Or not. Regardless, clang!

Huh, so you're watching this anime? Gonna read the manga too? I assume you'd be bothered by some of the same things that bother me, but it's one of those situations where the work as a whole is so good that some missteps can be forgiven.

I do not like being left hanging, so probably not on the manga.
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Postby Rosenakahara » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:00 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I do not like being left hanging, so probably not on the manga.

The anime is covering conviction arc which literally has almost no break inbetween that and the next arc so you will be left hanging if you watch this, and you will be left hanging by an INFERIOR version of Berserk, but if you want to do that then sure go ahead, you could at least watch the 97 anime or the movies beforehand for context though because you will not have any idea what is going on nor any connection to the characters.
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Postby Ray » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:04 pm

This is basically the animation industry stalling for time, trying to keep the Berserk IP relevant.
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Postby MuscleRobo » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:08 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:This is basically the animation industry stalling for time, trying to keep the Berserk IP relevant.


I was hoping the Ushio and Tora remake meant scores of old manga getting faithful anime later. If this anime is just being made so people still care about Berserk ten years from now when the manga is hopefully finished couldn't it kill momentum actually?

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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:12 pm

Does the 97 anime tell a reasonably complete and rounded-off story?

I won't read the manga in this case; I prefer reading physical books, and this is just too big at 37 volumes and continuing, which is already substantially larger than the two biggest manga I have - each of which has patches where they drag. And I prefer some assurance that there will be an ending point.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:17 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Does the 97 anime tell a reasonably complete and rounded-off story?

It ends on the cliffhanger of all cliffhangers. It's a reasonably good way to get invested in the story, though! You can also seek out the fan-edit Berserk Redux, which combines footage from the 97 anime and the movie trilogy to convey as much of the story in animation as possible. For the most part, it's a well done as something using two sources so visually disparate could be.

I prefer reading physical books, and this is just too big at 37 volumes and continuing

Could see if you can get it through the library? Not sure how it works over in the UK, but in the US they started carrying manga some years back, and if a volume wasn't at my local library it could typically be ordered from another one.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's an absurd weapon, so having it make an absurd noise when it connects pleases me. Given the nature of the setting I find it entirely plausible that the blacksmith who created it unwittingly imbued it with a bit of spirit magic (which would explain how it could be used as a weapon in the first place), and the clang might be a side effect of such magic.

The Dragonslayer doesn't have any magical properties to start with, but it has been gradually gaining them from being used repeatedly on supernatural beings. Granted, I don't think the sound designers had that in mind when they picked the "clang"... Anyway, more power to you. I find it so obnoxious that it ruins immersion even more than the CG doll faces. The Berserk subreddit doesn't seem to appreciate it much, either (take a drink every time you seem a mocking mention of "clang"...). I consider it a failure in sound design since it draws so much attention to itself, when the goal of effects artists should be invisibility.

I do not like being left hanging, so probably not on the manga.

If you're watching the anime (which is basically an ad for the manga), you're going to be left hanging anyway. ;) There are 37 volumes of manga available, so that's plenty of story to enjoy at this time, while still giving you multiple opportunities to stop before you reach the end of what's available. There's even the chance you'll need to step back for a while and take a prolonged break partway through; this is what happened to me.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:19 pm

View Original PostMuscleRobo wrote:I was hoping the Ushio and Tora remake meant scores of old manga getting faithful anime later. If this anime is just being made so people still care about Berserk ten years from now when the manga is hopefully finished couldn't it kill momentum actually?


Wait, Ushio and Tora's a remake? I never realized. No wonder no one was talking about it!
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Ray » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:35 pm

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Does the 97 anime tell a reasonably complete and rounded-off story?


It pretty much does. . . kind've. It ends on a bit of an ambiguous note that leaves it open for a sequel, but it does have closure in messed up Greek Tragedy kind of way. It covers the story up to the part of the Manga everyone either loves, hates, or loves to hate.

Berserk might be a bit too grim for you though. . . I mean waaaaaay too grim. There's rape, violence, torture, lovecraftian sex orgies, castration, medieval misogyny, fridging a female character in the most grim humiliating way possible (and I use the term fridging lightly), an annoying fairy sidekick, a mary-sue bad guy who almost always gets away with his crimes, absolute evil but little if any absolute good, several devils but no God.

Did I mention Rape? Yeah, a LOT of people get raped in Berserk. . . mostly nameless blonde peasant women, but men aren't exempt either.

Now I haven't read much of the series past Volume 13, but Rose does say it tones down the sexual violence in the later volumes. . .but I wouldn't say i'm interested enough to finish. Because after that, the whole series just got too bleak, exploitative, and masturbatory for me.
Last edited by Ray on Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:37 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:Berserk might be a bit too grim for you though. . . I mean waaaaaay too grim.

Maybe. But unlike many I enjoy Pupa (and have the manga on my shelf).
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Postby Rosenakahara » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:54 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:It pretty much does. . . kind've. It ends on a bit of an ambiguous note that leaves it open for a sequel, but it does have closure in messed up Greek Tragedy kind of way. It covers the story up to the part of the Manga everyone either loves, hates, or loves to hate.

Berserk might be a bit too grim for you though. . . I mean waaaaaay too grim. There's rape, violence, torture, lovecraftian sex orgies, castration, medieval misogyny, fridging a female character in the most grim humiliating way possible (and I use the term fridging lightly), an annoying fairy sidekick, a mary-sue bad guy who almost always gets away with his crimes, absolute evil but little if any absolute good, several devils but no God.

Ray if you are going to shit on berserk at least be accurate about it, some of the earlier stuff in what you just said is up to opinion but it's very clear you and I were not reading the same manga (for one there is actually a God in berserk, X is not a mary sue, did you even read the golden age? Any misogyny in the story is general shown to be a BAD thing etc.)

We get it you hate the series, move on.
Last edited by Rosenakahara on Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:06 pm

Ray: I wouldn't consider [REDACTED] a "Mary Sue", or even a "Villain Sue" (I feel gross just typing that). Reading him that way comes off as rather shallow, reducing the character to some of his superficial properties rather than taking into account what Miura is trying to achieve by painting [REDACTED] with those strokes.

And I suppose by the less specific definition one could say that [REDACTED] has been "fridged". I'm not a huge fan of the narrative decision, myself, for many reasons you no doubt share. However, since I like Berserk so much, and consider Miura to be overall a highly competent storyteller, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt where I would not give it to others and see how things pan out before I decisively condemn him. As the popular site reminds us, "tropes are not bad" -- they're just narrative tools, sometimes used well, sometimes used poorly. The story has nearly moved the pieces in place to seriously address ___'s mental regression, and hopefully it won't be much longer before Miura's intentions there become more opaque.

I'm pretty sure that "annoying fairy sidekick" doesn't belong in your list, since his principal reason for being in the story is to counterbalance the grimness!

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I wouldn't say there's no God, either. Griffith met something before he was turned into Femto... What that something is has only been explained in a chapter that was redacted for revealing too much -- God of the Abyss 2, which is a fascinating read with some really amazing imagery; worth seeking out -- but its influence upon the story's universe remains felt. Void even makes a direct reference to an "ungodly god born of man". There are more hints, but I haven't read much of the manga in a while.


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Postby MuscleRobo » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:15 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Wait, Ushio and Tora's a remake? I never realized. No wonder no one was talking about it!


Yep! The manga is from the early to mid 90's but had a short OVA of some stories in 92. The new TV show would be like if they made a full anime of Shinesman, Dragon Half or some other short OVA made as a promotion for the manga in the 90's got a full TV anime. Or JoJo! Hee hee

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Postby A.T. Fish » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:12 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:So I was just watching some of the fan edit Berserk Redux, and it forced upon me the somber realization that the 3DCG in the Golden Age trilogy looks godly compared to this new series. Howisthisevenpossible


The CG in the movie trilogy is pretty good though, I never understood all the hate it got. I guess people who didn't like it have an aversion to 3D in general, regardless of its quality. Well, I guess now they know there's a difference.

pwhodges wrote:Does the 97 anime tell a reasonably complete and rounded-off story?

I won't read the manga in this case; I prefer reading physical books, and this is just too big at 37 volumes and continuing, which is already substantially larger than the two biggest manga I have - each of which has patches where they drag. And I prefer some assurance that there will be an ending point.


I'd say the 97 anime and the movie trilogy, both of which cover the same arc, are fairly conclusive, in a way. They end at a point where there's an obvious continuation to the story, but it's completely different from what came before, so it kind of feels like watching an open ended story. I haven't read the manga so the Golden Age Arc is all I know about Berserk, and while I was a bit curious about the continuation I never felt like it was absolutely necessary to pick up the manga, so if you're ok with an open ending I think the original anime can be a fulfilling experience.

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Postby TehDonutKing » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:10 pm

View Original PostRay wrote:We already talked about this in pm. . . I read it up to Vol 13 on a scanlations website, and a while after that, before I just gave up on it.

If you read the Band of the Hawk translation, you may as well have not read it at all.

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Postby Stillborn » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:16 pm

That's the only version I've known. What's wrong with it?
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Postby Rosenakahara » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:43 pm

Dark horse or bust for Berserk Translations.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:44 pm

It's a trainwreck on par with the dub of EoE. For a few good examples of BotH's fuckery

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Postby Kazuki_Fuse » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:46 pm

All the people who can't decide if they want to get into it based on the fact its not complete, then don't bother. There are enough people in the world bitching about when Miura's finally gonna get back on a regular schedule. Basically, if you haven't started Berserk yet, then DON'T.
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Postby Tankred » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:39 am

View Original PostKazuki_Fuse wrote:All the people who can't decide if they want to get into it based on the fact its not complete, then don't bother. There are enough people in the world bitching about when Miura's finally gonna get back on a regular schedule. Basically, if you haven't started Berserk yet, then DON'T.


Pretty much, don't get into it if you're not prepared to wait until you're a skeleton. If you are going to get into Berserk, reading the manga and then watching the '97 anime really is your best bet because the goldenage films suffer from some CG that's not really age well while the 2016 anime takes that and turns it up to 11, all in all just read the goddamn manga with official translation.


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