In EOE Evangelion Unit 01... *spoilers*

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Ark [ANF]
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Postby Ark [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

But the tree of life was only formed when the lance merged with U01.

What would have happened if it hadn't returned?

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 01:05 GMT

tv33 [ANF]
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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Ark wrote:But the tree of life was only formed when the lance merged with U01.

What would have happened if it hadn't returned?


They either would have used the copy lances, or they were going to do it without it.

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 01:20 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Gundampioltspaz wrote:And yet Shinji was affected by the Anti-AT field even though he was within Unit 01's field?


No he wasn't. He had already disolved inside Unit 01 due to 400% synching. It had nothing to do with the Anti-AT Field.

What do you think. No one seems to be able to answer that. If Yui were to live forever in the Evangelion, why would Gendo go though all the trouble to "be with " her?


Because he loves her?

1) The end if instermentality would have been completed everyone lived in ethernal bliss forever. The "happy" endding


Successful Instrumentality would NOT[/u] be a happy ending. Going into oblivion would constitute the ultimate act of, "running away", and would mark Shinji as mankind's ultimate loser. During the brief time that instrumentality was in effect, the participants don't seem very blissful.

No I was talking about Gendo. Still on the Topic of how Gendo's plan would help him to join with Yui, if Yui will forever be trapped in the Evangelion. Gendo's plan would have to call for the Eva's AT-field to fail.

Can you site any evidence from the show to demonstrate that Gendo's plan included rescuing Yui from the Eva? Remember that he proposed the Human Instrumentality Project after the attempts to rescue her failed. He figured that if he couldn't bring her to him, he would have to go to her. Note that he told Rei, "Take me to Yui.", not, "Take me to retrieve Yui.". No, all of the evidence suggests that he was going to join her in Unit 01" Also, if Shin-Seiki is correct in his assumption that, "Ark", is being used in its Biblical sense of temporary refuge, then the souls of all mankind would only be there until Gendo succeeded in joing with Yui; at which point Gendo would have pulled the plug on 3I, kicked everyone else out to reembody, and then presumably flown off into space with Yui.

As for crashing on a planet, if she doesn't have an S^2, there would be no reason to worry.


She's had an S^2 since EP. 19. Remember, chomp chomp, slurp slurp?

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 03:35 GMT

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Postby NakedEYE666 [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

I have one weakly comment to interject with - I hear some people saying that in insturmentality, everyone is at bliss. I guess there's probably lots of evidence for this? I defintely don't think Shinji's AU was the act of being within insturmentality, and my inclination would be that if insturmentality would occur, and all beings would combine into one, "we" would have no feelings what-so-ever, and because of this "bliss" could never conceivably exist, it would be absolute nothingness. While absolute nothingness is a lack of all pain and suffering, that does not make it any kind of a "bliss" because "we" do not exist, "we" are nothing, and "it" (the one essence/entity) is simply there. Yes/No?

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 03:56 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

NakedEYE666 wrote:I have one weakly comment to interject with - I hear some people saying that in insturmentality, everyone is at bliss. I guess there's probably lots of evidence for this? I defintely don't think Shinji's AU was the act of being within insturmentality, and my inclination would be that if insturmentality would occur, and all beings would combine into one, "we" would have no feelings what-so-ever, and because of this "bliss" could never conceivably exist, it would be absolute nothingness. While absolute nothingness is a lack of all pain and suffering, that does not make it any kind of a "bliss" because "we" do not exist, "we" are nothing, and "it" (the one essence/entity) is simply there. Yes/No?
If Instrumentality reached its full consummation (which Shinji rejected, being the only one given a choice in the matter), then yes, Humanity as a whole would be in bliss, but it would be meaningless to say that Shinji, or Misato, or Asuka, or anyone else would be blissful in that situation, because they would no longer exist as individuals. For 'me' to be happy, there has to be an individual, self-aware 'me' to experience happiness. HCP eliminates the concept of 'me', and replaces it with an all-encompassing 'us'...

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 04:15 GMT

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Postby Zinzoningen [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Wait a sec... that's HAIR drifting along with EVA-01, near the end?!
Jeez, the video quality on the DVD must be pretty low, since I never caught that... I always figured it was some sort of spirit-thing.

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 07:15 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Let's get back on topic, shall we? There are enough discussion about all other details Image

Ok, so Yui stopped glowing and Rei appeared. Sure, there is that small possibility that Yui is dead, but it is only so because the directors didn't give anyone a straight forward answer about this, cause it was probably never asked(nor did Anno think that it was suppose to be a mystery). The end of glowing might mean that it just went to eternal sleep or because of the lack of light due to the death of the Sun, and Rei appearing do have strong connection with death, but Shinji is alive after meeting her in first eps, and this makes a lot of sense as just another way to emphasize that this is "The End" of the series.

Edit: oh yeah, and there are those tiny cracks that makes Yui look patrified... but it could just be that way to show the aged "armor" or "restraints", not Yui herself.

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 20:44 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Zinzoningen wrote:Wait a sec... that's HAIR drifting along with EVA-01, near the end?!
Jeez, the video quality on the DVD must be pretty low, since I never caught that... I always figured it was some sort of spirit-thing.


It's pretty easy to make out in Renewal. [Note to G-spaz: Look closely at her back; the entry plug lid is missing and you can see a hole. I.e., no entry plug. Hint-hint. Image]

And, yes, it really IS hair. An exerpt from the script description:

Shogouki IN
Kamen ga torete, kami ga nabiite iru
(Iro wa murasaki ni modotte iru)

Shogouki comes into frame
The mask is removed and hair is waving
(Her color returns to purple)


No mention of the Spear, oddly. (Obviously, in the final, we do not see the color of the armor actively returning to purple; it simply is.) At any rate, that hair can only mean one thing: Yui has gone and turned into one of these monstrosities. NooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

EDIT: Oh yeah, and to make matters more confusing, Sho is described in the script as "petrifying" (sekka suru) when her eyes "turn off".

And, on the annoying side, the two shots where Rei appears before Sho aren't even in the script. (Guess that means they were an afterthought?)

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 20:48 GMT

Keisuke-kun [ANF]
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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Those independent artists come up with some really weird shi.t. I found this cool Figueres of evangelion book that shows almost all the figure made from Eva's creation to today and has exclusive interviews in the back (that I can't read). Anyway some of the crap these people made is really weird. One is Rei however her body is that of EVA-01 and she is holding the helmet with one hand and for some god awful reason pulling one of the chest plates back to expose a breast. A well done figure but when I saw it I was like "you put the wrong hair and eye color."

Anyway this seems like a one sided argument. In my opinion if instrumentality had exceeded it would be like "We are eveyone and no one. We know everything and nothing." and all the while the voice is that of a million billion voices at once.

I don't think the Rei's wouled have only visited the living and recently dead. I think that they would have visited the long dead as well.

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 10:20 GMT

Gundampilotspaz [ANF]
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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Eva-01 is then shown attracted by the Moon.
Shinji pulls the induction lever, and the plug cover is released by the security device.
Then flows the flashback with Yui and Fuyutsuki talking about the purpose of Eva. This scene remained the same.
The entry plug is ejected from Eva-01.
Yui's hand go away from Shinji's cheek.
You know this one, it's in the finished episode as well. ^^
Yui: "You'll be okay, now."
Shinji "Yes."
Shinji: "Good-bye, mother."
The entry plug falls in the LCL ocean (but Anno adds "maybe we could get rid of that?").
Fade out (Anno: "is there another way?")


I used google and found it on MDwigs page.... go figure....
http://www.angelfire.com/anime4/mdw...vesequence.html

I think that Anno wanted to leave it out because it would kinda kill something in that last scene. All the crosses flying up, lillith dieing, ect. Having the plug fall into the ocean would kill the mood. (if there was a mood) I can't say he wanted to leave it out to leave the fact a question.

Back to the drawing board.....

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 17:12 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Shin-seiki wrote:If Instrumentality reached its full consummation (which Shinji rejected, being the only one given a choice in the matter), then yes, Humanity as a whole would be in bliss,


No it wouldn't. All would have been reduced to one lonesome person, floating in nothingness, unable to DO anything.

This is NOT a blissful situation. Instrumentality is the worst thing that could possibly happen.

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 22:17 GMT

Gundampilotspaz [ANF]
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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

thewayneiac wrote:No it wouldn't. All would have been reduced to one lonesome person, floating in nothingness, unable to DO anything.

This is NOT a blissful situation. Instrumentality is the worst thing that could possibly happen.


If you were aware. But you wouldn't be. "Ignorence is Bliss"

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 23:36 GMT

Keisuke-kun [ANF]
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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:04 am

Yeh. In the workds of Chef

"If you wanna make a child cry you give him a lollipop, then you take it away. If he didn't have it in the first place he'd have nothing to cry about."

Originally posted on: 05-Jul-2004, 14:30 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:05 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:If you were aware. But you wouldn't be. "Ignorence is Bliss"


The full original quotation is, "If ignorance is bliss, then 'tis folly to be wise.", and says exactly the opposite of what some people try to make it say. The original quotation denies the premise.

What makes you think that there would be no awareness of the former situation? Site something authoritative.

Besides, even if there were no memory, billions of years of instinct would tell this new being that it should be doing something, not nothing.

I think that some people here are missing the point: Instrumentality is portrayed as a bad thing, something to be avoided. Anno clearly intended for us to believe that Shinji made the RIGHT decision.

In fact, from the very moment that complimentation begins, Shinji feels instinctivly that it is all wrong.

Originally posted on: 05-Jul-2004, 19:35 GMT

Gundampilotspaz [ANF]
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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:05 am

thewayneiac wrote:The full original quotation is, "If ignorance is bliss, then 'tis folly to be wise.", and says exactly the opposite of what some people try to make it say. The original quotation denies the premise.

What makes you think that there would be no awareness of the former situation? Site something authoritative.

Besides, even if there were no memory, billions of years of instinct would tell this new being that it should be doing something, not nothing.

I think that some people here are missing the point: Instrumentality is portrayed as a bad thing, something to be avoided. Anno clearly intended for us to believe that Shinji made the RIGHT decision.

In fact, from the very moment that complimentation begins, Shinji feels instinctivly that it is all wrong.


Of Course Shinji made the right decision. But still I do not believe that individuals would be aware of anything. Nor do we know what would happen to lillith, or the black moon if instermentality didn't fail.

Shinji: Ayanami... where are we?

Rei:
This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life.
A world without AT Fields... without your own shape.
An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere.


The only reason that Shinji would have been able to tell himself from anyone else must have been the Eva, or maybe Rei choose for him to be seperate to see if he would make the right decision.

But this quote sugjests that individuals wouldn't exsist, or even be aware, once inside the sea of LCL.

Shinji:
Have I died?

Rei:
No, everything has just been joined into one.
This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.

Shinji (releasing Misato's cross from his left hand):
But... this isn't right. I don't think this is right.


By saying that this is the world that Shinji was hoping for Rei means that this is the world without pain, without suffering. Inside the Sea if LCL with no AT Fields human beings would exsist contently with each other always. In peace.

But Shinji knows this is wrong.

Rei:
If you wish once more for the existence of others, the barriers of the heart will separate everyone once more... And the fear of other people will begin again.

Shinji:
That's all right...
(disengages Rei from him and clasps her hand)
Thank you.


Here Rei is sugjesting that being seperate is the negitive thing. The fear of other people will begin again. Inside the sea of LCL there is no fear no pain, no other. This doesn't make it a good thing, but it makes it a blissful thing. Humans need pain, need suffering. Thats how they can tell each other apart, thats how they create themselfs in thier own minds.

Shinji:
I feel that there were only hateful things there.
So I'm sure it was okay to run away.
But there was nothing good in the place I ran to, either.
After all, I didn't exist there... which is the same as no one existing.


Here Shinji cleary states the differnce between the two worlds in which he has exsisted. The first two lines are about the real world, the second are about the world without AT Fields.

Kaworu:
Is it okay for AT Fields to hurt you and others once more?

Shinji:
I don't mind. But, what are you two within my heart?

Rei:
Hope. The hope that people might be able to understand one another.

Kaworu:
And the words 'I love you'.


Hope that people will understand each other is an impossibility, but people still search for it. The words "I love You" are what everyone truely wants to hear. That is what makes the real world worth living. The sea of LCL offered the first one, but not the second. And even though Shinji had one, he knew that he would rather have the power to search for both.

Shinji:
But that's just pretending - a self-intoxicating belief... like a prayer.
It can't possibly last forever.
Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me.
Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real.



Yes instermentality is a very bad thing. But if you were to accept it, then you would live in bliss forever. But that kind of Bliss is not for Human beings. Humans need to feel needed, they need pain, they need to be loved. These things were not offered in the sea of LCL and thus Shinji rejected it.

Shinji: Because there are others, I can perceive myself as an
individual. If I am alone, then I will be the same without
others. For if this world is only of me then there will be no
different between me and nothing.

Misato: By recognising the differences between yourself and others,
you've established your identity as yourself.

Rei: The very first other person is your mother.

Asuka: Your mother is a different individual.

Shinji: Right. I am me and she is she. But are you really sure that
the perceptions of others form my true self.

Misato: It's true, Shinji Ikari.


Originally posted on: 05-Jul-2004, 21:59 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:05 am

thewayneiac wrote:All would have been reduced to one lonesome person, floating in nothingness, unable to DO anything.


Gundampilotspaz wrote:If you were aware. But you wouldn't be. "Ignorence is Bliss"

But still I do not believe that individuals would be aware of anything.


I was referring to the newly created conglomerate being, not the former individuals within that being. I'm not quite sure if you mean that it would also have no awareness.

But either way, your arguement doesn't work. If it does not have awareness, then it couldn't feel bliss anymore than it could feel pain or sorrow. My Webster's Unabridged defines bliss as, "extreme joy, blessedness, felicity, heavenly joy", you can't feel emotions without awareness. No awareness, no bliss.

If you think it does have awareness, then my original arguement stands. Happiness is more than the absense of pain and sorrow; you need to have something to be blissful about. In Instrumentality you have NOTHING. You are all alone.

Instrumentality was specifically designed to eliminate one particular type of pain: the pain caused by interaction with others. It does nothing to eliminate the pain of being alone, which is what this new being would be feeling, not bliss.

Instrumentality eliminates the pain of being with others by eliminating others, leaving only self. Shinji rejects this on the grounds that there is no self without others, thus Instrumentality is non-existance. So maybe the, 'no awareness", theory is correct, but as I said, you can't feel bliss without awareness.

So, awareness or no, the Instrumentality = bliss theory is fatally flawed.

Originally posted on: 06-Jul-2004, 04:06 GMT

EVAN -1 [ANF]
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Postby EVAN -1 [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:05 am

Fascinating theory.

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2005, 08:03 GMT

Magami No ER [ANF]
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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:05 am

It seemed to be that many people felt bliss right before they reverted to LCL, and the souls in completation felt nothing, no awareness. It was just one lonely thing.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2005, 21:34 GMT


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