In EOE Evangelion Unit 01... *spoilers*

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Shin-seiki wrote:I don't follow your reasoning; why should that be a problem? Keep in mind that time and space don't seem to constrain Rei, once she returns to Lilith and becomes a god-like being, like they do ordinary mortals. (Rei is linking the mind/souls of Misato and Ritsuko, who are killed off in #25', to the Instrumentality Sequence that Shinji undergoes in #26') Like I said, it's all very metaphysical...


But even though Rei connects there minds when they die, she still comes to them to destroy thier ego barriers.

I don't think that Rei making that connection is reason enough for her to be next to Yui like that. And If she was making the connection why would Unit 01 power down at that moment.

And you still can't answer the question that makes my theroy possible at all. Gendo's plan had to call for the death of Unit 01, because he wanted to be with Yui. If Unit 01 did not die, then all that Gendo did would of been in vain. At the end of 26, Yui and Gendo are there, not just Gendo. This means that Yui would of had to become one with the rest of humanity.

The way the movie looks I agree that Yui would still have to be in Unit 01, but these unanswered questions support my theory.

Shin-seiki wrote:Yui is shown moving away from Shinji into space, while Shinji is moving towards earth (and the surface of the LCL). We then see Shinji bob up in the LCL, back in the real world, and then Yui/EVA-01 float off into space. "Goodbye, Mother" I think it takes an ingenious contortion of logic and common sense to say that this all actually means the opposite of what it plainly appears to mean...


I can see clearly that Shinji is moving toward the earth, and Yui is moving away from earth and we can assume that is out toward space. But you can see only black, no visable signs of stars or the moon to tell us she really is moving out into space. Unit 01, is, but it could be dead as it moves.

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 21:35 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:I can see clearly that Shinji is moving toward the earth, and Yui is moving away from earth and we can assume that is out toward space. But you can see only black, no visable signs of stars or the moon to tell us she really is moving out into space. Unit 01, is, but it could be dead as it moves.[/u]
Do you really think that Anno is just blowing smoke up our *** when he shows this in connection with Yui's conversation with Fuyutsuki?

(Flashback to 13 years ago - Fuyutsuki, Yui and infant-Shinji)

Fuyutsuki:
Humans create Evangelion in imitation of God... Is this our true goal?

Yui:
Yes. Humans can only live on this planet, but Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it[/u].


Gee, who do you suppose she has in mind?

(EVA-01 and the Lance of Longinus float in space)

Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives.
It will be very lonely[/u], but as long as that one person still lives...


Sounds to me like she wasn't anticipating having Gendo, or anyone else, along for the ride...

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 21:58 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

You answered your own question. She wasn't anticipating, to have along for the ride. After Yui "disapeared" Gendo's reason for working on the Instermentality project was to join with Yui. I also believe that this is why Seele and Gendo's plans for third impact are differnt. One would "kill" unit 01, the other would let Unit 01 be as Yui and Fuyutsuki were talking about in that scene. Could Anno be blowing smoke up out asses, maybe, maybe we just need to read between the lines.

I agree with the facts that you state, but I'm doing research into solving some of these problems that I am stating. There is information to back up both of them. I support this theory in hope to answer some of these questions.

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 22:38 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

EVA-01 clearly never dies, since -- presumably -- dead Evas don't grow full heads of hair. (Well, normally, live ones don't either, but...)

What exactly are you trying to prove again, Gspaz?

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 22:42 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Reichu wrote:What exactly are you trying to prove again, Gspaz?



A few things:

1) The most important one of all: Why do Gendo and Seele have differnt plans third impact?

2) Whats the point in Rei being next too Unit 01, and it shutting down at that moment.

3) How if Yui will remain in the Evangelion and not join as one with everyone else, is she with Gendo at the end of 26.

4) What is the reason for Rei to visit Ritsuko and Misato twice. Once as they die, once as the ego barriers are breaking down.

5) Why would Gendo's goal be to go though with instermentality to be with Yui, iif Yui will remain in the Evangelion.

If Yui were to have died it will solve many of these questions. I say IF she was to die. I can't say she died based on the current facts of the movie, so I'm gathering facts the best way I can.

Arguing with people on the fourm, having them bring up facts to dispute the theory, and maybe opening doors that I didn't think of to help me PROVE the theory. In other words, I'm just using you.

Reichu wrote:EVA-01 clearly never dies, since -- presumably -- dead Evas don't grow full heads of hair. (Well, normally, live ones don't either, but...)


Have you ever seen a dead Eva? Maybe when they die they grow hair.... you never know. Image

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 23:02 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:In other words, I'm just using you.


Gendou would be proud.

Have you ever seen a dead Eva?


There is a VERY dead Eva in EoE, in case you missed her. And don't forget about all those dead, fugly harpies.

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 23:11 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Reichu wrote:There is a VERY dead Eva in EoE, in case you missed her. And don't forget about all those dead, fugly harpies.


I think there is a differnce between being ripped apart and dieing from loss of its soul.

Originally posted on: 02-Jul-2004, 23:17 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Just because Rei appears doesn't mean you die. She appeared before Shinji in that way twice. Plus Eva-01 shuts down all the time and its not dead.

A good quote is from Kung Pow

"Just cause I say "aaahhhh" (and fall over) doesn't mean Im dead.

Plus if she had died there would be no reason to show the scene where Eva-01 is existing billions of years later. Its like a person saying "I can live for 100 years" in a flashback right after the person dies then showing their body 50 years after it died. The first two parts can be kept as it can be seen as irony but the last part not only doesn't serve a purpose, but it messes with the story.

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 01:40 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:We know that in Seele's plan Unit 01 will become the "vessle for all humanity" and will take all of the souls into itself, and become the "God".


This is not correct. In fact Seele denies planing to put the souls into Unit 01:

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.


Seele wanted the souls in the Black Moon, which was pretty much what was happening until Shinji pulled the plug. It was Gendo who wanted the souls in the EVAs so he could could be with Yui in Unit 01.

Gendo's plan would use Adam and Lillith. The combined form of the two would become the "vessle" dor all humanity and take in all the souls. In this way, Yui would become one with lillith also. "Must one who is born from adam return to adam" we can assume that also, "Must one who is born from lillith return to lillith." Using this plan, Gendo would get to be with Yui.


Yes he did intend to use Adam and Lilith to start 3I, but where does it say that he wanted the souls of all mankind to go into Lilith?

On Yui's death, Gendo went mad. We don't know if he knew what would happen. Perhaps Yui planned everything behind his back with seele, but after it happened the Human instermentality project was approved. AFTER they knew it was possible to fuse a soul into Unit 01.


Yui would not have conspired with Seele behind Gendo's back because she was working against Seele, and went into Unit 01 when she did in order to escape assassination. Reichu demonstrated this in THIS thread.

Gendo could not of been reunited with Yui IF Yui is forever trapped within the Evangelion. Gendo's plan must somehow cause the end of the life of Unit 01.


Unless his plan was to be united with her IN Unit 01.

Besides, wouldn't killing Unit 01 probably kill Yui?

A few things:

1) The most important one of all: Why do Gendo and Seele have differnt plans third impact?


Because they have different goals. Seele wants to unite mankind; Gendo wants to join Yui.
2) Whats the point in Rei being next too Unit 01, and it shutting down at that moment.


Answered by Shin-Seiki in thread already referenced.
3) How if Yui will remain in the Evangelion and not join as one with everyone else, is she with Gendo at the end of 26.


She is there because everyones' minds are still joined at this point. (Shinji only decided to reject Instrumentality seconds before this.) If Gendo reembodies, she will no longer be with him.
4) What is the reason for Rei to visit Ritsuko and Misato twice. Once as they die, once as the ego barriers are breaking down.


To show us that she is watching them all the time?
5) Why would Gendo's goal be to go though with instermentality to be with Yui, iif Yui will remain in the Evangelion.


Because he wanted to be in there with her. In fact, my take on the, "Head Biting", scene has always been that Yui was punishing Gendo by barring him from joining her.

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 01:45 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:4) What is the reason for Rei to visit Ritsuko and Misato twice. Once as they die, once as the ego barriers are breaking down.
I already went over that point here

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 01:54 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Why would Rei bother "linking" Ritsuko pre-3I? Unless I'm having a total brain fart, Ritsuko is not present in the pre-3I Instrumentality sequence.

EDIT: OK, nevermind, she says one thing...

Also, I'm curious about the artistic choice of depicting EVA-01 'going dormant' by having her turn grey -- a la the petrified harpies.

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 03:30 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Reichu wrote:Why would Rei bother "linking" Ritsuko pre-3I? Unless I'm having a total brain fart, Ritsuko is not present in the pre-3I Instrumentality sequence.

EDIT: OK, nevermind, she says one thing...

Also, I'm curious about the artistic choice of depicting EVA-01 'going dormant' by having her turn grey -- a la the petrified harpies.
I will go over all this in excruciating detail whenever I get around to doing that 'magnum opus' Instrumentality Sequence project that I've mentioned. As for Ritsuko, she basically gets that one line to let us know that, yes, she's there too...

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 11:15 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

thewayneiac wrote:Unless his plan was to be united with her IN Unit 01.

Besides, wouldn't killing Unit 01 probably kill Yui?


How?

Not if Evangelion Unit 01 was subject to instermentality.


Because they have different goals. Seele wants to unite mankind; Gendo wants to join Yui.


How would Gendo join Yui.


She is there because everyones' minds are still joined at this point. (Shinji only decided to reject Instrumentality seconds before this.) If Gendo reembodies, she will no longer be with him.


Why would she be there if the Evangelion is not subject to instermentality? If the Eva's soul is not set free?

To show us that she is watching them all the time?


Don't think so...

Because he wanted to be in there with her. In fact, my take on the, "Head Biting", scene has always been that Yui was punishing Gendo by barring him from joining her.


Once again, how? How would he go about doing this?




There are two better theories I can now supple after going over the information for 24 hours.

1) Yui had left the Evangelion when it became one with Lillith, but because Shinji wished to return Shinji will the Evangelion to break free. Yui's soul was still part of lillith, when Rei appears before Unit 01 she is returning Yui's soul to the Evangelion. My guess for the Eva series and Unit 01 turning gray is that when Unit 01 swung the lance and all the fake Lances disapeared , it destroyed all of their S^2 organs. And then Yui switches off her S^2 as well to lie dorment in space forever. I say this because Yui was involed in the instermentality of Gendo so she had to be part of the whole at that point. IF the TV endding is what would happen if instermentality suceeded Yui is there! So Yui must of left the Evangelion. Plus even after the Eva left lillith, Yui was still speaking to Shinji.

2) Shinji never left the Evangelion's plug, nor did Yui. Yui was able to appear before Gendo after she became one with Lillith. Yui was able to speek to Shinji because they were still joined. The reason that Rei appeared in front of Unit 01 was to retreave Shinji and bring him back to earth. Then Yui shut down when Shinji no longer needed life support... and floated away. The reason Rei appeared to Shinji in the end (as Neo Lillith) was to make sure that he was alright.


It is possible that space and time do not apply to Rei, and the reason that Shinji say Rei in the first episode was because Rei wanted to observe him though out the series.

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 17:21 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:Not if Evangelion Unit 01 was subject to instermentality.


Evas aren't affected by Anti A.T. Fields, so they can't really be "instrumentalized". Yui manages to have some 'soul communication' with Shinji and Gendou, but that arguably isn't the same thing.

How would Gendo join Yui.


Is this a question? Image

Why would she be there if the Evangelion is not subject to instermentality? If the Eva's soul is not set free?


Since the 'Congratulations' scene from #26 basically equates to Shinji's final dialogue with his mother in #26' ("goodbye to my mother", and all), it could be argued that Yui is the only one who is "really" there in #26. I remember Dr. Nick's idea that the 'Congratulations' scene was a farewell hallucination to Shinji from Yui; an interesting way to interpret it, IMO, tho obviously not the only way.


Don't think so...

Once again, how? How would he go about doing this?


Do you really mean "he" here? Wayneiac was talking about Yui, so presumably this is a typo?

Yui was basically equivalent to "god" at this point. (Even GNR, evidently, needed to fuse the Lance with Shogouki before she could accomplish anything.) If she wanted to give Gendou his "retribution" and ban him from the Great Soul-Orgy In The Sky, I'm sure she could. Not to mention Rei (the one conducting Instrumentality) and Shinji (the one from whom Rei is deriving her decisions) would probably back up that decision in whole.

There are two better theories I can now supple after going over the information for 24 hours.


24 hours straight?

My guess for the Eva series and Unit 01 turning gray is that when Unit 01 swung the lance and all the fake Lances disapeared , it destroyed all of their S^2 organs. And then Yui switches off her S^2 as well to lie dorment in space forever.


If I had to guess, I would say that the harpies destroyed their own S^2s when they skewered their cores. (There is every reason to believe that the Evas keep their Super Solenoids there, after all.)

And I have my doubts that Yui will be lying dormant in space forever. Eventually she'll crash on a planet somewhere and this whole mess will start all over again.

Plus even after the Eva left lillith, Yui was still speaking to Shinji.


Yes, because Shinji was still inside EVA-01.

The reason that Rei appeared in front of Unit 01 was to retreave Shinji and bring him back to earth.


Behind the scenes, Shinji ejected the entry plug on his own. Didn't need Rei's help for that, but he DID need Rei's help to engage in some long-distance soul-chat while he was falling.

The reason Rei appeared to Shinji in the end (as Neo Lillith) was to make sure that he was alright.


"Neo Lilith"? Sounds like something out of a really bad fanfic.

thewayneiac wrote:This is not correct. In fact Seele denies planing to put the souls into Unit 01:

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

Seele wanted the souls in the Black Moon, which was pretty much what was happening until Shinji pulled the plug. It was Gendo who wanted the souls in the EVAs so he could could be with Yui in Unit 01.


I'd wondered what the whole "Ark called Eva" bit meant, and your presentation of the material above helped my poor synapses finally make some vital connections.

So let me get this straight: Basically, Gendou:EVA-01::SEELE:Black Moon? Use Lil and Adam to channel the souls of all life into the Eva, where they'll all float around indefinitely as individuals in a single body? (Would that many souls fit inside one measley Eva? Or would EVA-01 inflate GNR-style?) So Gendou gets to be with Yui for all eternity, even though he has a helluva lotta company?

His instructions to Rei weren't especially specific, though. He says, "Merge all souls and then take me to Yui's side," not, "unite all souls inside EVA-01 so that I can be by Yui's side".

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 08:10 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

I figure that Gendo's intention was that the entire human race would evolve to the next step up of existence: we would all be like Yui ("I want to show my child the bright future", as she put it), i.e. we would all live forever in immortal, god-like bodies (the EVA series, with their nifty S^2 engines).

#21
------------------
Fuyutsuki: Where were you this week?
I know you're depressed.
But your body belongs not only to yourself.

Ikari: I know. Today, I'm starting a new project.
I've already made the proposal to Chairman Kihl.

Fuyutsuki: You're going to do That?

Ikari: Right.
The way to become a god[/u], which no one has achieved.
The Human Instrumentality Project.
---------------------

#25':

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.
--------------------

As you mentioned, Reichu, there is the problem of there being three billion of us, and only nine of them; but where does it say that a core can't accomodate millions of souls (since souls, after all, have neither mass nor bulk).

On the other hand, it seems that Gendo and Fuyutsuki may have intended this simply as a temporary step, for the bulk of humanity to 'ride out' Third Impact, hence the use of the word Ark in this context, analogous to the way that Noah and his family and the animals used the Ark in the Old Testament to ride out the Flood, which was sort of an Impact-like event, in a sense...

#26':
Fuyutsuki:
The Fruit of Life possessed by Angels,
And the Fruit of Wisdom possessed by humans...

(The Lance penetrates the core and merges with EVA-01 into the Tree of Life)

Fuyutsuki (off screen):
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God.
And now it has been restored to the propagule of souls... the Tree of Life.
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?[/u]
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

(THANX FOR NOTHING, Shinji!!!!)

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 08:52 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Reichu wrote:Evas aren't affected by Anti A.T. Fields, so they can't really be "instrumentalized". Yui manages to have some 'soul communication' with Shinji and Gendou, but that arguably isn't the same thing.


And yet Shinji was affected by the Anti-AT field even though he was within Unit 01's field?

Is this a question?


What do you think. No one seems to be able to answer that. If Yui were to live forever in the Evangelion, why would Gendo go though all the trouble to "be with " her?

Since the 'Congratulations' scene from #26 basically equates to Shinji's final dialogue with his mother in #26' ("goodbye to my mother", and all), it could be argued that Yui is the only one who is "really" there in #26. I remember Dr. Nick's idea that the 'Congratulations' scene was a farewell hallucination to Shinji from Yui; an interesting way to interpret it, IMO, tho obviously not the only way.


Don't think so...


There is a whole in that theroy because in the movie the final scene with Yui happens after all the souls were set free. So it would of added up.

I have looked at the TV endding in two way,

1) The end if instermentality would have been completed everyone lived in ethernal bliss forever. The "happy" endding

2) The events right up before Shinji rejects instermentality. Looking at it this way, Shinji is still in the entry plug.

Do you really mean "he" here? Wayneiac was talking about Yui, so presumably this is a typo?

Yui was basically equivalent to "god" at this point. (Even GNR, evidently, needed to fuse the Lance with Shogouki before she could accomplish anything.) If she wanted to give Gendou his "retribution" and ban him from the Great Soul-Orgy In The Sky, I'm sure she could. Not to mention Rei (the one conducting Instrumentality) and Shinji (the one from whom Rei is deriving her decisions) would probably back up that decision in whole.


No I was talking about Gendo. Still on the Topic of how Gendo's plan would help him to join with Yui, if Yui will forever be trapped in the Evangelion. Gendo's plan would have to call for the Eva's AT-field to fail.

24 hours straight?


I wish...

If I had to guess, I would say that the harpies destroyed their own S^2s when they skewered their cores. (There is every reason to believe that the Evas keep their Super Solenoids there, after all.)

And I have my doubts that Yui will be lying dormant in space forever. Eventually she'll crash on a planet somewhere and this whole mess will start all over again.


Yes and since the Lance is supposed to be Adam's S^2, then the fake lances must work that way as well, when Yui destroyed the lances she must have destroyed the core, and the S^2 as well.

As for crashing on a planet, if she doesn't have an S^2, there would be no reason to worry.

Yes, because Shinji was still inside EVA-01.


We don't know exactly when Shinji left Unit 01.

Behind the scenes, Shinji ejected the entry plug on his own. Didn't need Rei's help for that, but he DID need Rei's help to engage in some long-distance soul-chat while he was falling.


When did he do it? How? Why? How did he end up back on the earth? (I'm being serious. I would like to know.)

"Neo Lilith"? Sounds like something out of a really bad fanfic.


The souls of Adam and Lillith have now taken the shape of Rei and Kaworu. So yes in a way Rei is the "new Lillith".

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 21:25 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Gundampilotspaz wrote:And yet Shinji was affected by the Anti-AT field even though he was within Unit 01's field?


Being inside an Eva is no guarantee one's own A.T. Field will hold up.

Yes and since the Lance is supposed to be Adam's S^2, then the fake lances must work that way as well, when Yui destroyed the lances she must have destroyed the core, and the S^2 as well.


The "Lance as Adam's S^2" theory was destroyed by the Magi Hack Files from NGE2. Thank gawd. The Spear of Longinus seems to operate on a similar principle as an S^2, but it's not the same thing.

When Yui-sama wielded the Spear, she destroyed only the faux-Spears. The harpies destroyed their own cores without Yui's help.

We don't know exactly when Shinji left Unit 01.


Yes we do.

When did he do it? How? Why? How did he end up back on the earth? (I'm being serious. I would like to know.)


Evidently he didn't want to go drift off into deep space with Yui. "Later, Mom, I've got a date on a beach with a hot red-head." This is from memory, but apparently a scene where Shinji ejects the entry plug and falls down to Earth (hope that parachute-gizmo activated Image) was scripted but never animated, as it was deemed unnecessary. I would have liked for it to be there, personally, since it makes things slightly less ambiguous. Still, it doesn't really take much reading between the lines to figure out when Shinji leaves EVA-01...

So yes in a way Rei is the "new Lillith".


Actually, that might just be Yui's new job.

Originally posted on: 03-Jul-2004, 22:25 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

What I don't understand is if SEELE needed the original LOL to turn U01 into the tree of life then why were they attacking the geo-front?

How did they know it would come back?

Come to think of it, why did it come back?

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 00:04 GMT

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Postby NakedEYE666 [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Mmmm... wishful thinking.

Maybe the reinterpreted the Dead Sea Scrolls and found a passage that described the return of the LOL. Or maybe they knew that LOL would be lonely up in the moon so it would come down eventually.

Maybe they just wanted to stop Gendou from doing it his way.

Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 00:08 GMT

tv33 [ANF]
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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 am

Ark wrote:What I don't understand is if SEELE needed the original LOL to turn U01 into the tree of life then why were they attacking the geo-front?

How did they know it would come back?

Come to think of it, why did it come back?


They did not need it.

SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.


Originally posted on: 04-Jul-2004, 00:19 GMT


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