Lilith and Adam. Questions...

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Sharp-kun wrote:See the problem with Lilith? She is not born of Adam, as is said in Ep 24'. By the seemingly correct definition of "angel", she is not one.
I concede the point. I had thought that you had in mind a different reason, hence my bringing Kaoru into the equation.

Sharp-kun wrote:This is faultly logic. Lilith is the seond angel as Anno decided to make her so. He had not created Lilith, he could just as easily have stuck something else in there instead.

Early hints about something are not hints about Lilith when looked at without the benefit of seeing the final episodes. They hint at Rei having some angel connection, that there is some missing angel. They don't say anything about a second SoL, nor is there anything until Ep 24 (or, depending on your version, the inserted scenes in Ep 21', 22' and 24'). All scenes refering to 2 SoL's were added after Lillith's entrance.


I am once again forced to concede the point. They only appear to be hints about Lileth when viewed in the context of the series as a whole. Whatever else can be said, the final concept of Lileth certainly fits nicely with the early hints that were given about Rei. You are, however, correct to point out that most of the hints are carefully non-specific.

Shin-Seki wrote:Reichu, please don't expect the rest of us to suddenly start refering to Adam as "she"; it will just cause confusion. If you're going to do so, at least use scare quotes.


Perhaps, considering everything that we know about Adam, neuter pronouns would be the way to go?

Originally posted on: 07-Oct-2004, 17:00 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Soluzar wrote:I am once again forced to concede the point. They only appear to be hints about Lileth when viewed in the context of the series as a whole. Whatever else can be said, the final concept of Lileth certainly fits nicely with the early hints that were given about Rei. You are, however, correct to point out that most of the hints are carefully non-specific.

The way I imagine it went is that Anno intended the big marshmallow girl to be Adam, and that humans came from her. Thats suggested by the "Adam is growing/going (can't remember which it was) well", "Adam, the first human", and "too close to Adam" lines. Then, sometime during the production of ep 24, he decided exactly what he wanted. Lilith was created, fitting reasonably well with what he'd set up for Rei (though messing up some Adam stuff). Lilith made her debut and everyone went "WTF??!!". Eva ends as on TV.
He then goes back and with the redone eps elaborates more on it. We get the White Moon scan, Lilith's legs regenerating, we see Adam is banished to Gendo's hand, SEELE tell us that angels are from Adam, and humans are from Lilith (contradicting what was said earlier). EVA-01 is now properly linked to Lilith as well.

Its reasonably apparent that a lot of Eva was only planned towards the end. Everything all suddenly comes together after Ep 20. The earlier eps were great, but they didn't get to the meat of a lot of things.

Originally posted on: 07-Oct-2004, 17:15 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

If Lilith was originally going to be Adam, what answers these questions in the 'original scenario'?

1) If LCL came from big-Adam-on-the-cross, where were they getting it beforehand? (Before getting Adam in #08.)
2) Where did 'Adam's legs go? Little Adam had four limbs; why wouldn't Big Adam?
3) What was attracting the Angels to the Geofront when Adam was in Germany?

As far as what pronouns to use for Adam... I brought the subject up on the main commentary thread because I thought it was an item worth considering, that we could vote diplomatically on, as we did with similar matters when the commentary originally started... No one seems to pay much attention to the main commentary thread anymore, though, to my chagrin. It's stickied for a reason, dammit!

Originally posted on: 07-Oct-2004, 17:32 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Sharp-kun wrote:1 - beings born of Adam, as said several times in the series. Lilith does not fit this.


Neither does Adam.

2 - Whatever suits NERV, such as Lilith. This context seems to be more to decieve people, and stop them asking awkward questions.


The case for this definition of Angel would be stronger if there were more than just 2 examples of it. I still prefer this definition 2:

2. Sources of life.

These both still exclude Rei.

Originally posted on: 07-Oct-2004, 21:36 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

thewayneiac wrote:Neither does Adam.



The case for this definition of Angel would be stronger if there were more than just 2 examples of it. I still prefer this definition 2:

2. Sources of life.

These both still exclude Rei.


The point I was attempting to make, and one which I am prepared to admit that Sharp-kun has thorougly poked holes in Image was that by showing Rei and Kaoru in subsequent cuts of the OP, followed by the word "ANGELS", rather tended (in my mind) to indicate the Rei/Lileth connection, and therefore, to indicate that Anno had Lileth in mind from the start. Sharp-kun rebutted this argument...

Sharp-Kun wrote:No it doesn't. All that shows is that Rei has some connection to the Angels (which is all Anno could really have done). It is also of some minor note that in the end, Rei isn't an angel. Lilith is (depending on context), but Rei herself is not.

If Lilith was decided upon from the beginning, why no mention of her before Ep 24, or stuff like the White Moon? The "surprise" argument is flawed, as Anno later went back and inserted stuff into earlier episodes that refers to her.


...and I am forced to admit that there is no clear evidence to prove that Anno had Lileth in mind from the start. However, everyone is saying that Rei is not an Angel, but there is a flaw in that argument, if your definition of the word Angel is accepted.

Kaoru was the 17th Angel, I don't think that anyone doubts that - I don't think you really can doubt that without throwing the plot of NGE into utter disarray. If Kaoru is an Angel by virtue of having the soul of Adam, then surely Rei, having the soul of Lileth, is also an Angel.

By your definition, Wayniac, Lileth is an Angel under (2) above. Therefore, if all it takes to be an Angel (the case of Kaoru) is to have the soul of one, then Rei is at least as much an Angel as Kaoru is. It all boils down to whether or not people class Lileth as an Angel.

That's my opinion anyway. As with so many other things about NGE, it's an almost infinitely debatable point.

Originally posted on: 08-Oct-2004, 00:34 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Reichu wrote:1) If LCL came from big-Adam-on-the-cross, where were they getting it beforehand? (Before getting Adam in #08.)

2) Where did 'Adam's legs go? Little Adam had four limbs; why wouldn't Big Adam?

3) What was attracting the Angels to the Geofront when Adam was in Germany?

Unknown. I'd need to think about it. Given that this is a partially guessed at scenario that was never made, answers would all be very speculative.

Reichu wrote:No one seems to pay much attention to the main commentary thread anymore, though, to my chagrin. It's stickied for a reason, dammit!

I read all replies to it, I just don't have the time to respond. Image

thewayneiac wrote:Neither does Adam.

More than Lilith does. Image

Adam is always distinguished from the Angels in the series - "we will not use Adam or the Angels" for example. Him being refered to an Angel is likely for the same reason as Lilith.

thewayneiac wrote:The case for this definition of Angel would be stronger if there were more than just 2 examples of it. I still prefer this definition 2:

[QUOTE=thewayneiac]2. Sources of life.

These both still exclude Rei.

Doesn't really work. "Angel" is used by SEELE (in its seemingly proper role) to refer to the offspring of Adam. That's not Lilith.

Soluzar wrote:If Kaoru is an Angel by virtue of having the soul of Adam, then surely Rei, having the soul of Lileth, is also an Angel.

I suspect the reasons for Kaworu being an Angel are the fact that he is in a sense born of Adam. He has Adam's soul - he is sort of Adam, and yet sort of Adam's offspring (which are Angels). With Rei that isn't the case. She has the soul of Lilith, who didn't give birth to "Angels". She is the same type of being as Kaworu, but the soul is a fundamental difference.

Originally posted on: 08-Oct-2004, 01:08 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Sharp-kun wrote:I suspect the reasons for Kaworu being an Angel are the fact that he is in a sense born of Adam. He has Adam's soul - he is sort of Adam, and yet sort of Adam's offspring (which are Angels). With Rei that isn't the case. She has the soul of Lilith, who didn't give birth to "Angels". She is the same type of being as Kaworu, but the soul is a fundamental difference.


Yeah, like I said, it only works if you buy into Wayniac's take on the definition of an Angel. My initial impression that she might have been classed as one came from two things in Episode #24, both of which are inconclusive, but see if either of them change your mind at all:

Kaoru: You are, the First Children?
Ayanami Rei.....
You are the same as me.


The other part was the part where Rei-III manifests an AT field, and when they try to scan for the source, they are just about to determine whether it's pattern is blue or not... and it dissapears. I guess I assumed that was Anno's way of telling us that if Rei were to be scanned in that fashion she'd come up as pattern blue.

The first example is a lot more persuasive than the second, and even that is weak, but that was the original basis for my argument.

Originally posted on: 08-Oct-2004, 01:42 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

I've been away awhile ... and I'm still away ... busy with classes ... anyway.

This post caught my eye and I can respond in short manner.

Because Rei comes from Lilith (this is clear), she is, essessentially, more "human" than Kaworu (who comes from Adam [also clear]) — this is why I think that she is commonly not referred to as an "Angel."

As for the AT Field, Kaworu confirms everyone has one (even humans) ... Rei III just must be more in tune with hers or something *shrug*

As for all the comments on Kaworu's and Rei's possession of Adam's and Lilith's souls Image most people know my position on that Image . And if I didn't have class in 6 hours, I'd be happy to elaborate more on that. But for now, sleep Image .

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 11:59 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 pm

Knives wrote:As for the AT Field, Kaworu confirms everyone has one (even humans) ... Rei III just must be more in tune with hers or something *shrug*
I love the way you blithely shrug off what is almost certainly an important indication of Rei's true nature...
As for all the comments on Kaworu's and Rei's possession of Adam's and Lilith's souls Image most people know my position on that Image . .
Oh boy, another one... Perhaps you and Fuzzy can get together some time and explain to the rest us, deluded as we are by the vast accumulation of hints and clues (and, in the case of Adam/Kaworu, outright assertions) that Rei and Kaworu are incarnations of Lilith and Adam, how the story of NGE makes any sense whatsoever, if Rei's soul isn't that of Lilith!

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 13:24 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I love the way you blithely shrug off what is almost certainly an important indication of Rei's true nature...Oh boy, another one... Perhaps you and Fuzzy can get together some time and explain to the rest us, deluded as we are by the vast accumulation of hints and clues (and, in the case of Adam/Kaworu, outright assertions) that Rei and Kaworu are incarnations of Lilith and Adam, how the story of NGE makes any sense whatsoever, if Rei's soul isn't that of Lilith!

... well. As I said, most people already know my "crazy" position on that matter.

I have a few reasons for it, which I won't go into right now (must get to class on time) ... but I will mention that I think the story's point and message is completely lost if in fact Rei is not unique — that is to say, if she holds no inherent value. The goal of the series was to argue that anyone and everyone has inherent value, no matter what other people think or how they are valued by others. If Rei I, II and III all share the same soul, Rei truly is nothing more than a copy of something else — she is not unique, she holds no value ... she is a tool, worth only her purpose ... valuable only by the sheer fact that she is useful (namely to Gendo).

That destroys the heart and soul of the message behind Evangelion, if you ask me.

(... there's other stuff to support this, other than "idealistic" views, but again ... that would take a while to discuss ...)

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 21:49 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Knives wrote:... well. As I said, most people already know my "crazy" position on that matter.

I have a few reasons for it, which I won't go into right now (must get to class on time) ... but I will mention that I think the story's point and message is completely lost if in fact Rei is not unique — that is to say, if she holds no inherent value. The goal of the series was to argue that anyone and everyone has inherent value, no matter what other people think or how they are valued by others. If Rei I, II and III all share the same soul, Rei truly is nothing more than a copy of something else — she is not unique, she holds no value ... she is a tool, worth only her purpose ... valuable only by the sheer fact that she is useful (namely to Gendo).

That destroys the heart and soul of the message behind Evangelion, if you ask me.

(... there's other stuff to support this, other than "idealistic" views, but again ... that would take a while to discuss ...)


Your theory is simply not supported by any evidence that I can recall. There are countless indicators that Rei possesses the soul of Lileth. However, the three separate Reis are individuals, because while their heredity and souls are the same, their environment and individual choices differentiate them.

I think that you and I have viewed different series, Knives. Failing that, we must certainly have seen different movies, as EoE makes it very clear that Rei is linked with Lileth.

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 22:01 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Knives wrote:valuable only by the sheer fact that she is useful (namely to Gendo).

Which is why Gendo shows such concern for her. Image

Examples are episode 5 where he injures himself to get to her (which was unnecessary), or in Ep 19 - just watch his reaction as she does the N2 Attack.
She is valuable to Gendo for far more than her purpose. She is the closest he has to Yui.

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 22:03 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Sharp-kun wrote:Examples are episode 5 where he injures himself to get to her (which was unnecessary), or in Ep 19 - just watch his reaction as she does the N2 Attack.
She is valuable to Gendo for far more than her purpose. She is the closest he has to Yui.


Well, there's always EVA-01... Image

I find it odd that Gendo doesn't seem quite as affected by the totally weird and grotesque stuff that happens with Rei in #23. Where did that "rare sign of emotion OMG Rei's in trouble!" reaction go?

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 23:44 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, there's always EVA-01... Image

I find it odd that Gendo doesn't seem quite as affected by the totally weird and grotesque stuff that happens with Rei in #23. Where did that "rare sign of emotion OMG Rei's in trouble!" reaction go?

He at least sortied 01.

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 23:48 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, there's always EVA-01... Image

I find it odd that Gendo doesn't seem quite as affected by the totally weird and grotesque stuff that happens with Rei in #23. Where did that "rare sign of emotion OMG Rei's in trouble!" reaction go?


I thought that was odd, at first, too. Then I assumed that what with the timetable for instrumentality reaching it's climax, he just figured that he'd be back with Yui soon enough. What I find really[/u] strange - and this is more like another thread in itself - is Rei's own attachment to Gendo.

From her point of view, it's hard to see that he treats her too well, and yet she dotes on him. I know this is hardly a new observation, but I just don't get it.

Sharp-Kun wrote:He at least sortied 01.

Does anyone else but me really loath the use of that word in NGE? It just seems so out of place. I can't imagine saying that in conversation, even if said conversation were in a military installation. Honestly, it gives me an almost physical sensation of discomfort.

Originally posted on: 12-Oct-2004, 23:52 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Soluzar wrote:What I find really[/u] strange - and this is more like another thread in itself - is Rei's own attachment to Gendo.

From her point of view, it's hard to see that he treats her too well, and yet she dotes on him. I know this is hardly a new observation, but I just don't get it.


I questioned Rei's characterization quite thoroughly during the past year on "teh f0rum", so tv33 or Shin-seiki or somebody able to penetrate more deeply into Rei's personality than myself probably answered a lot of those nagging questions already... If nothing else, there's always my "How I Came To Know Rei" thread, where I attempted to graduate from avid Rei bashing to obtaining some level of understanding. I'll inevitably bump the older ones before their systematic destructions so you can see how much I really hated that BHW. (I think I was able to get myself under control once I decided that Lilith would be the big bad antagonist of my fabled doujinshi. Sammael's got NOTHING on her.)

Does anyone else but me really loath the use of that word in NGE? It just seems so out of place. I can't imagine saying that in conversation, even if said conversation were in a military installation. Honestly, it gives me an almost physical sensation of discomfort.


With shutsugeki, there are apparently two choices: "sortie" and "sally". In all honesty, I think the former is the lesser of two evils.

Dub Gendou: "Sally ho!"

EDIT: Hey, here's another brain-teaser for Sharp-kun on the "Anno's original intentions" deal. Adam is depicted with a core (or what looks like one, anyway) as early as the OP. And you contend that the "underground giant" was originally supposed to be Adam, yet she obviously lacks a core. Just curious about how you'd explain that one. Image

Originally posted on: 13-Oct-2004, 05:16 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Reichu wrote:I questioned Rei's characterization quite thoroughly during the past year on "teh f0rum", so tv33 or Shin-seiki or somebody able to penetrate more deeply into Rei's personality than myself probably answered a lot of those nagging questions already... If nothing else, there's always my "How I Came To Know Rei" thread, where I attempted to graduate from avid Rei bashing to obtaining some level of understanding. I'll inevitably bump the older ones before their systematic destructions so you can see how much I really hated that BHW. (I think I was able to get myself under control once I decided that Lilith would be the big bad antagonist of my fabled doujinshi. Sammael's got NOTHING on her.)


Yeah I skimmed that thread some time ago. It would bear reading again, I suppose, but I'd just love it if someone could give me a plausible one-sentance answer as to why Rei loves Gendo so. It seems like love, you know, as it is depicted. Maybe not romantic love, but she clearly has this huge mass of feelings for him. Why else would she enshrine his glasses as she does?


Reichu wrote:With shutsugeki, there are apparently two choices: "sortie" and "sally". In all honesty, I think the former is the lesser of two evils.

Dub Gendou: "Sally ho!"


::shudder:: No matter how black things look, you always have to think... they could be worse. Image To be fair, I never thought it was a translation issue. Still doesn't sound right, though.

Reichu wrote:EDIT: Hey, here's another brain-teaser for Sharp-kun on the "Anno's original intentions" deal. Adam is depicted with a core (or what looks like one, anyway) as early as the OP. And you contend that the "underground giant" was originally supposed to be Adam, yet she obviously lacks a core. Just curious about how you'd explain that one. Image


My lecturers would be horrified. I know I've been as much guilty of it as anyone, if not more, but citing the author's original intent is like swearing in church. You just don't do it, for fear of censure. Image

Now classes have started up properly, I'm feeling guilt ridden, for my transgressions against the pursuit of pure theory. I wonder if any of the lecturers hold confessional. Image

Originally posted on: 13-Oct-2004, 05:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Soluzar wrote:Yeah I skimmed that thread some time ago. It would bear reading again, I suppose, but I'd just love it if someone could give me a plausible one-sentance answer as to why Rei loves Gendo so. It seems like love, you know, as it is depicted. Maybe not romantic love, but she clearly has this huge mass of feelings for him. Why else would she enshrine his glasses as she does?


Well, duh, it's because her soul is part that of Yui's, and that's why she loves Gendo and Shinji.

Just kidding. Image I'll let tv33 handle this one, since he's the major Rei sympathizer 'round these parts.

Originally posted on: 13-Oct-2004, 05:48 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Reichu wrote:Well, duh, it's because her soul is part that of Yui's, and that's why she loves Gendo and Shinji.

Just kidding. Image I'll let tv33 handle this one, since he's the major Rei sympathizer 'round these parts.


For what it's worth, I expect that if I were forced at gunpoint to work up a theory, that's more or less it. That her connection to Yui, whatever it is, has left her with memories and suchlike that she responds to on a subconscious level. However, Gendo does not treat her entirely well, and she has had quite a while to put up with being treated just like another piece of equipment.

If that's the best answer there is, I can accept it, but I'm not sure it's the answer at all.

Originally posted on: 13-Oct-2004, 05:59 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Soluzar wrote:For what it's worth, I expect that if I were forced at gunpoint to work up a theory, that's more or less it. That her connection to Yui, whatever it is, has left her with memories and suchlike that she responds to on a subconscious level. However, Gendo does not treat her entirely well, and she has had quite a while to put up with being treated just like another piece of equipment.

If that's the best answer there is, I can accept it, but I'm not sure it's the answer at all.


I've actually never been a fan of the whole "Rei having Yui's residual memories" idea. The memories that a person attains over a lifetime don't exactly get ingrained into his or her genetic structure (cheesy sci-fi "genetic memory" gimmicks aside), so how the heck would Rei have such preprogrammed connections? It's a sticky issue, and ultimately depends a lot on how you want to explain Rei's creation. If you want explore the matter further, a new thread would probably be prudent. (Offhand, I can't remember where we covered the matter in the past.)

Personally, I'd be prone to say that Rei's fondness for Gendo and Shinji was learned. With Shinji, anyway, we can clearly see thier relationship unfold over the course of the series. When it starts off, she's pretty much a cold bitch who could care less about him (SLAP!), and it slowly builds to the point where she decides becoming Kentucky Fried Rei is better than letting Shinji get entangled with the Angel of Tentacle Rape. And through subsequent technological reincarnation, she unlearns her fondness for Gendo, which buttresses her fondness for Shinji, and so on and so forth...

Originally posted on: 13-Oct-2004, 06:21 GMT


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