Gendo At His Desk

Over time, notable threads from ANF will be preserved here for the Benefit of All.

Moderators: Ornette, Monk Ed

The Opinionator [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 14
Joined: Oct 20, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Opinionator [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Has anyone ever noticed that Gendo forms a silhouette that looks suspiciously like that of a solid six-point star, like the Star of David?

Reference:
Image

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 20:20 GMT

PronsAmuro [ANF]
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 65
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby PronsAmuro [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Coincedence. That's my guess.

- PronsAmuro

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 20:25 GMT

asdfff [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 11
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby asdfff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

One of the few valid observations that uses the word "Jew" in the context of NGE. Good catch. Symbolic explanations aside, I first posit that it's part of a visual effect caused by the perspective--notice that the window frames are both tilted in towards the center of the pic, as are the sides of gendo's desk.

The jew star resemblence is still errily not-false, however.

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 20:26 GMT

Gannon [ANF]
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 7
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Gannon [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Also notice that when that thing ate Gendo in EOE, the crunching sound effect resembled that of a Kosher pickle.

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 09:00 GMT

Seele08 [ANF]
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 568
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Oh Noes!!! Keel can't be Jewish. Being a cyborg isn't Kosher! All those different kinds of metal and plastic mixed! That's not Kosher!

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 09:41 GMT

asdfff [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 11
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby asdfff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Ha! Hold off guys, this isn't the standard wandering jew thing...

1) that actually does really look like the jewish star
2) it's not keel, it's gendo.

To counter:

3) It may be a coincidence of perspective
4) Maybe Anno is giving credit to the mythology that 'sold' Eva to the Japanese masses bored of mecha anime? remember, as much baggage as the catholic church dumps on christianity, most of the Eva symbols are kabbalistic which is more a jewish thing.

EDIT: I don't think the opinionator has a reputation here I don't know about(?).

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 09:56 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

The Opinionator wrote:Has anyone ever noticed that Gendo forms a silhouette that looks suspiciously like that of a solid six-point star, like the Star of David?


Yep -- this one made it onto a list of Pointless Religious References in NGE I barfed up at the Eva Monkey Forums a while back. Well, just because I mentioned it...
- Adam (First Angel) [First human being of Genesis]
- Angels (Sammael in OP and Angels #03 to #17 in the show) [Taken from Judaic lore]
- Apostles (Translation of shito, Japanese counterpart of "Angel")
- Ark ("Ark called Eva", EoE)
- Chamber of Guf (#21', #23, #26') [Judaism, realm where souls originate]
- Cross / Crucifiction (#01, #02, #19, #25': Cross-shaped explosions of Sachiel, Zeruel, EVA-02, and EVA-01; Lilith on the cross; #18, EVA-03's aerial transport; #23, "double cross"-shaped depression in Terminal Dogma; #26', "crucifiction" of EVA-01 and Shinji, shape of Tree of Life, pose assumed by harpies upon death and EVA-01 upon going dormant, green crosses that form to launch souls into the air and float away once HIP fails]
- Dead Sea Scrolls (Seele's Secret/Ura Dead Sea Scrolls) [The documents discovered in Qumran]
- Divine Retribution/The Flood (World flooding from Second Impact) [Story of Noah]
- Doors of Guf: See Chamber of Guf
- Eva [First woman in Genesis, Chavvah/Eve, made from Adam]
- Evangelion [Greek word for "gospel"]
- Fruit of Life & Fruit of Knowledge/Wisdom (#26') [
- Giant of Light (Form Adam assumes leading to Second Impact) [In Judaic lore, Adam before consuming the Fruit of Knowledge]
- "God" [Used loosely throughout NGE is various senses of the term]
- Haloes (#23', appear above EVA-00 right before she self-destructs)
- Lilith (Progenitor of humanity and Adam's counterpart) [Babylonian/Assyrian night demoness --> First wife of Adam in "Alphabet of Ben-Sira"]
- Lilim (#24, spoken by Kaworu) [Demonic offspring of Judaic Lilith)
- Lingam/Yoni (#26', Tree of Life entering GNR's Third Eye) [Sacred union of male and female, "fountain of life" placed in "source of all that exists", from Hinduism]
- Many-Eyed Ones (OP, #26': Eyes on wings of Sammael, EVA-01, harpies; also sprouted by Tree of Life) [Description of various angels]
- Marduk (Marduk Society) [Central Babylonian/Assyrian god]
- Medium/Yorishiro (#26', used in reference to EVA-01) [exact religious connotations undetermined]
- Red Earth (#14, referenced in Rei's monologue) [Judaism, used to form the first human(s)]
- Red Earth Purification Ceremony (#26', mentioned by Seele) [exact source unknown]
- Sephirotic Tree of Life (OP; ceiling of Gendo's office; #25', layout of circular "pools" in Terminal Dogma, with Rei inside Malkhuth; #26', projected into sky by Eva Series) [In Kabbalah, the Tree of Life diagramatically representing the path to become one with God, also to reunite God with Shekinah]
- Seven Eyes of YHWH (Seele's crest, Lilith's mask) [YHWH described with 7 eyes throughout Bible; is this in Judaism, as well?]
- Shekinah (concept possibly encompassed by Giant Naked Rei) [Divine presence; in Kabbalah, female emanation of God and antithesis of Lilith]
- Souls [no comment Image]
- Spear of Longinus (organic weapon) [Spear used by Longinus to confirm Jahshua's/Jesus' death]
- Stigmata (#26', given to EVA-01 and Shinji - in the wrong place!) [Nail wounds on the wrists (or, inaccurately, palms) of Jahshua]
- Star of David (#19, Gendo's Desk) [Symbol of Judaism]
- Third Eye (#26', when GNR takes in the ToL) [from Eastern mysticism]
- Three Wise Men (The MAGI Supercomputers: Balthasar, Caspar, Melchior)
- Tree of Life (OP: diagram by Fludd; #26': fusion of EVA-01 and Spear) [Archetypal religious concept, found in Judaism and central to Kabbalah]
- Trinity (Seele's crest, three triangles-within-a-triangle; #26', symbol formed by EVA-01 and harpies, only visible very briefly) [Christian concept of a tripartite god]
- 12 Wings (OP: Sammael, EVA-01; #26': Lilith, EVA-01) [Number of wings possessed by Sammael/Satan]
- Wheels of Fire (#23, Armisael) [Used to describe the choir of angels called ophanim]
- Wings of Light (#12, Adam; EoE, EVA-01) [Used to describe angels in general]
Wow, I think I'm actually MISSING stuff. Gad-zooks!

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 11:32 GMT

Mr. Tines [ANF]
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Posts: 787
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

The Opinionator wrote:Has anyone ever noticed that ...


Short answer: yes. This came up here some time in the latter half of last year, and again on EveMonkey a while later.

Conclusions: nothing of significance.

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 16:01 GMT

The Opinionator [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 14
Joined: Oct 20, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Opinionator [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Gannon wrote:Also notice that when that thing ate Gendo in EOE, the crunching sound effect resembled that of a Kosher pickle.

Indeed. The implications are staggering...

asdfff wrote:It may be a coincidence of perspective

It can't be perspective, because the "camera" is is very far away from Gendo's desk. If his desk were shaped like a rectangular prism, then the shape of its silhouette when viewed from the front at such a distance would look like a rectangle. However, the shape is clearly not a rectangle, and so Gendo's desk cannot be shaped like a rectangular prism. I think you'll see this if you sit down and consider the geometry of the situation.

It's worth mentioning that the animators of NGE, while perhaps talented, sometimes fail to accurately portray reality. For a specific example, consider one of the scenes in the series where the characters ride an escalator. The camera moves with the characters, so the descending escalator remains motionless, while the ascending escalator moves up at a speed more than twice that of the stationary surroundings (which also appear to be moving up). That implies that the ascending escalator is moving faster than the descending escalator, which as far as I know, isn't how escalators work in real life.

Athough they may not get things right all the time, I find it hard to believe that the animators would draw such a blatantly incorrect shape for the silhouette of a regular desk (i.e., one shaped like a rectangular prism) viewed from such a distance. As such, I think they intended the desk to be irregularly-shaped, and it seems to me that they of all people would realize the potential significance of making Gendo's Big Chair reminiscent of a yet another prominent religious symbol.

I haven't really thought deeply enough about the series yet to come to any sort of conclusion regarding its significance (or lack thereof), but it seemed worth pointing out. It might very well have no significance at all, since there certainly seems to be a lot of religious symbolism thrown into the series purely for novelty's sake.

Reichu wrote:Yep -- this one made it onto a list of Pointless Religious References in NGE I barfed up at the Eva Monkey Forums a while back.

Am I the only one who thinks that some of the things on that list might actually not be pointless? Of course, that might not be appropriate to discuss in this particular thread.

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 23:20 GMT

Magami No ER [ANF]
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Posts: 1145
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Pointlessly named, I think she means, because they aren't refering to the actudaly "Fruit of Life/Tree" desribed in the bible/wherever else, just an organ that keeps the spawn of Adam alive constantly and able to change themselves, and our fruit of knowlege...which is flip side of the coin.
The names are forgien and add a bit of intirgue to the different aspects of Eva, and were done just to be interesting. ("cool".)

Originally posted on: 10-Apr-2006, 23:53 GMT

The Opinionator [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 14
Joined: Oct 20, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Opinionator [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

Ah, well, in that sense I can see how one might call them pointless. I also definitely agree with you about the "cool" factor. Still, I think the implementation of some of the terms and symbols is appropriate, even though it doesn't always agree with actual dogma.

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 00:07 GMT

Joeshie [ANF]
Adam
User avatar
Posts: 95
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Joeshie [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 am

For everyone who hasn't heard the quote from Tsurimaki (assistant director of Evangelion)...

"There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool."

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 01:16 GMT

Ornette [ANF]
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 370
Joined: Oct 23, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:45 am

http://www.evamonkey.com/writings_shea01.php

Edit: Tried to post the link from escaflowneonline.com, but the dns doesn't seem to be resolving for me, either way, the link is on the EM page I posted

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 01:21 GMT

LuigiHann [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 128
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:45 am

I agree that there's no real anti- or pro- Christian propaganda in Eva, or even any deep meaning to the symbols, but that doesn't mean they aren't clever, at the very least. For example, naming "The First Human" Adam just makes sense, and having mankind decended from Lilith rather than Adam is just clever, as the mythological Lilith's offspring were demons, and making mankind the bad guy is one of those recurring themes of Eva. I'm not disputing the fact that the Christian symbols and names are "just there to look cool," because that makes sense as well, I'm just saying that as far as arbitrary symbolism goes, Eva pulls it off quite well.

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 02:14 GMT

The Opinionator [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 14
Joined: Oct 20, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Opinionator [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:45 am

Joeshi's citation of Tsurimaki's words is significant, and after investigating the matter further, it's clear to me that the creators didn't intend to convey any sort of religious message through the series -- although I never really expected a religious message in the first place. What I did expect was a lot of religious symbolism thrown in for novelty's sake, some of which, after a little research and thought, might actually make a bit of sense in the sort of way that LuigiHann has pointed out.

What I mean is, some of the symbolism "makes sense" in that what it represents in real life has some meaningful bearing on what it represents in the series. For example, the title "Neon Genesis Evangelion" seems appropriate to me, because the series is, in a sense, a chronicle of the recreation of humanity. What is the Third Impact if not a kind of new genesis for mankind?

Another example is Asuka's allusion to the walls of Jericho when she and Shinji are alone together at Misato's (which isn't on Reichu's list). At the Battle of Jericho, so the Old Testament says, God spoke to Joshua, leader of the Isrealites, and told him to march around the city once every day for six days with his seven priests carrying trumpets before the Ark. On the seventh day they were to march seven more times around the city, after which the priests were to blow their trumpets. This Joshua did, and when he ordered his men to sound their trumpets and give their warcry, the walls of Jericho came crashing down, allowing his soldiers to completely ravage the city. Now, I suspect that the very intelligent Asuka knew this story, and I don't think the metaphor would be lost on her. Clearly, however, it was lost on Shinji. It's in these sorts of ways that I'd assign meaning to some of the "Pointless Religious References."

Speaking of the Battle of Jericho, there's a very catchy little acapella song about it by the Swingle Singers called "Joshua Fit the Battle of Jericho".

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 04:18 GMT

asdfff [ANF]
Embryo
Posts: 11
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby asdfff [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:45 am

I think of it as playing columns for the game gear. If you make it a point to just barely _try_ to throw the same colors into one corner, eventually something will line up and cause small chain reactions of 'thing that make sense'. In the end there are as many religious symbolism that line up as ones that don't--ie, jew star -> kabaalism = ok; adam -> is a female = not so much.

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 06:05 GMT

LuigiHann [ANF]
Lilith
User avatar
Posts: 128
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby LuigiHann [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:46 am

Yeah, you can't really take them literally. They're just kind of there.

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 06:07 GMT

Mr. Tines [ANF]
Bardiel
Bardiel
User avatar
Posts: 787
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:46 am

Ornette wrote:Edit: Tried to post the link from escaflowneonline.com, but the dns doesn't seem to be resolving for me


Quiddity abandoned that site and domain name earlier this year. The Ideon stuff that used to be there is now at shin-getter.net, but I have no idea if or where the rest was re-hosted.

The Opinionator wrote:I suspect that the very intelligent Asuka knew this story, and I don't think the metaphor would be lost on her. Clearly, however, it was lost on Shinji.


With a western up-bringing, definitely she would - and likely known that the instruments in question were actually rams' horns. To her disappointment, Shinji didn't have the, uh, appropriate horn.

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 06:25 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3651
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:46 am

The Opinionator wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that some of the things on that list might actually not be pointless? Of course, that might not be appropriate to discuss in this particular thread.


Oh, the term "Pointless Religious Symbolism" is used primarily for purposes of irony. I've been throwing it around for years, and it originated in the dark times before my brain consciously recognized that Seele were a bunch of religious zealots (which seems blindingly obvious in retrospect...) and thus all of the Judaic/etc. references in the show seemed completely inexplicable and gratuitous. Granted, some of them still do...

Forgot the Wall of Jericho, I did. For some reason, my mind had apparently partitioned that one away from Judaio-Christian references into movie references -- although, for some strange reason, I am completely unable to find the document that details what movie reference this is... :scratches head in perplexity:

EDIT: Another one I forgot is "Pillars of Salt". These are present in the Antarctic Dead Sea, along with the giant domed chamber where Sho and Ni battle in #24. Apparently from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, I'll lazily just quote the summary here: " According to the Old Testament, the cities were destroyed by fire and brimstone in retribution for the sinfulness of their residents. Since Lot was considered a good man, he was warned of God's punishment. However, his wife disobeyed the sole condition of not looking back and was transformed into a pillar of salt."

Most of the Pointless Religious References have some at least LOOSE correlation with their "duty(ies)" in NGE, though -- what the heck are they supposed to be doing in the show that has any resemblance to the original pillar of salt? Unless there's some other reference I'm missing...

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 12:50 GMT

Shin-seiki [ANF]
Armisael
Armisael
User avatar
Posts: 925
Joined: Oct 19, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:46 am

Reichu wrote:Most of the Pointless Religious References have some at least LOOSE correlation with their "duty(ies)" in NGE, though -- what the heck are they supposed to be doing in the show that has any resemblance to the original pillar of salt? Unless there's some other reference I'm missing...
#12:Kouzou: It's that arrogance that caused the tragedy 15 years ago, the
Second Impact. This scene is the result. It's too harsh a
punishment for us, though, considering the crime. This is just
like the Dead Sea!

Gendou: And yet this is a purified world, a world lacking the impurity
of the original sin.

Originally posted on: 11-Apr-2006, 13:34 GMT


Return to “AnimeNation Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest