Eva fans, your thoughts on RahXephon

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MDWigs [ANF]
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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Heh, it just a pity that more people can't see that they are both great shows and leave it at that.

(note this is not directed at anyone in this thread, this has been one of the better comparison threads I've seen).

Originally posted on: 23-Apr-2003, 06:38 GMT

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Postby kamidake90 [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

if you want an original mecha anime that's been made in the last 10 years i can name you two, both of which were made by tomino..overman king gainer(2002) and Brain Powered(1998) and before you even start, yes brain powered is original, how you people even believe that this is an eva rip i will never know, people claim it to be an eva ripoff desite the fact that the characters, mecha, story, setting, music, and conclusion are completely different from eva!

Originally posted on: 23-Apr-2003, 17:38 GMT

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Postby kamidake90 [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

sorry for the double. i do have to agree with quiddity, eva itself isn't very original, it's plot is almost diectly ripped from ideon(Hell eva 2 even has ideon's color scheme), however that being said, rahxephon isn't that original either, most of it's influence comes from another yoshiyuki tomino work(Raideen The Brave) rahxephon looks like raideen and even has all of raideen's abilities

Originally posted on: 23-Apr-2003, 17:42 GMT

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Postby okendri [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Thanks for posting that. I remember on animeboards a guy posted all the similarities between Raideen and Rahxephon. Nobody ever mentions that and just mention Eva.

Originally posted on: 24-Apr-2003, 08:11 GMT

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Postby Ryuusei_Gan [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

GandalfsStudent wrote:Alright then, name a completely original mech that's shown up in the last 10 years.


Gasaraki.Image

Anyway, my thoughts on RahXephon are simple.As an Evangelion fan, I can watch Rahxephon and say, "hey, I think I've seen stuff like this before".But as an anime fan, I can watch RahXephon and say "OMG, thats some good stuf!!"

I really dont like stating my opinions on RahXephon based on Evangelion, since Evangelion is my no.1 show and it kinda clouds my judgementImage.But the point is, RahXephon is a great show.ImageThats all.

Originally posted on: 24-Apr-2003, 14:13 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

All I'm saying is that one can't really have that many original shows involving giant robots. If it involves a gaint robot it based on that dispite any number of differences. What makes evangelion good is the exicution, it combines deep characters big robots and good music, in my opinion that's what makes it original, the combination of familiar elements to create something unique.

Originally posted on: 24-Apr-2003, 18:12 GMT

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Postby kamidake90 [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

but we have given you three examples of mecha anime that are original, overman king gainer, brain powered, and gasaraki all of which were made in the last five years, also i will say it again, evangelion didn't do anything original, even it's execution was a near clone of ideon, the only difference between cheryl formosa and ritsuko akagi is their names, the actions they take and their motivations are identical and that's just the start of eva's supposed original ideas that just happen to match up nearly perfectly with ideon

Originally posted on: 25-Apr-2003, 08:01 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

kamidake90 wrote:but we have given you three examples of mecha anime that are original, overman king gainer, brain powered, and gasaraki all of which were made in the last five years, also i will say it again, evangelion didn't do anything original, even it's execution was a near clone of ideon, the only difference between cheryl formosa and ritsuko akagi is their names, the actions they take and their motivations are identical and that's just the start of eva's supposed original ideas that just happen to match up nearly perfectly with ideon


Alright then why does evangelion have such a huge fan base and ideon has almost no fan base at all?

Originally posted on: 25-Apr-2003, 15:17 GMT

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Postby okendri [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Are you taling about popularity in the states or Japan. It obvious why here in the states but I don't know why Ideon isn't as popular in Japan. Maybe there was a bigger show on during that time that took away from the popularity. In the end though, it doesn't matter look at what is popular in America now, American Idol which is a waste of time for entertainment.

Originally posted on: 25-Apr-2003, 15:53 GMT

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Postby Proteus3 [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

okendri wrote:Are you taling about popularity in the states or Japan. It obvious why here in the states but I don't know why Ideon isn't as popular in Japan. Maybe there was a bigger show on during that time that took away from the popularity. In the end though, it doesn't matter look at what is popular in America now, American Idol which is a waste of time for entertainment.


I think GandalfsStudent is argueing that if Evangelion is such a ripoff of Ideon, then why did Ideon get prematurely cancelled in Japan while Evangelion was a runaway success if they are essentially the same thing. Evangelion had to of done something differently to separate it from the crowd.

Originally posted on: 25-Apr-2003, 16:09 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

Proteus3 wrote:I think GandalfsStudent is argueing that if Evangelion is such a ripoff of Ideon, then why did Ideon get prematurely cancelled in Japan while Evangelion was a runaway success if they are essentially the same thing. Evangelion had to of done something differently to separate it from the crowd.


yeah pretty much.

Originally posted on: 25-Apr-2003, 16:30 GMT

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Postby okendri [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

That is a tough question to answer. You can make the same argument against Gundam if you want to. It was cancelled prematurely too. Since I have only read the summary and some interviews I can't really say. Maybe the audince was ready for EVA at the time and not Ideon, identification with Shinji, the use of religious symbols. I am not saying that EVA is a ripoff just that it is not an original idea. I say if you think that Rah is ripoff of Eva you might as well say it is a ripoff of gundam and earlier mecha. Within any genre you will find simalarities with earlier works so its unfair to call anything a ripoff.

Originally posted on: 25-Apr-2003, 16:34 GMT

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Postby Mystery_Guest [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

I avoided Neon Genesis Evangelion at first because I thought that it was just another mecha anime (I've seen enough mecha anime as it is!”). Plus I was tentative to get into it, because with a title that has the word Evangelion (as in evangelism) in it, you'd think this anime would have some religiously confusing and shocking stuff. But when I got to see Evangelion, those doubts were refuted. I soon became drawn to the series because its emphasis was not just on the mecha, the action scenes, or the fan service (which I had no problem with); and I've enjoyed the show's humorous and quiet moments. Plus Shinji reminds me so much of my younger self that I couldn't pass this over as just another mecha series. I believe Shinji's made the all the difference for me as an Evangelion fan, because there's no way I could've related to him if he wasn't the detestable human being certain fans say he is. As for RahXephon, all I've got to say is that I as much as I've heard of it, I haven't seen it yet. Right now I'm kind of avoiding RahXephon because I think that it's just another mecha anime (I've seen enough mecha anime as it is!”). Plus I am—Hey! Didn't I just write something like this?

Originally posted on: 26-Apr-2003, 00:06 GMT

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Postby okendri [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

Just watch Rahxephon and you will see that it is a character driven anime with some mecha action.

Originally posted on: 26-Apr-2003, 00:34 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

I've been keeping away from the discussion because I haven't seen the others animes mentioned but one thing i see is that the way you guys compare Eva to other shows. If you compare any anime like that, then it would be very hard to find any original anime.

Originally posted on: 26-Apr-2003, 02:17 GMT

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Postby kamidake90 [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

ideon not having a fanbase? ha! for the past twenty years every newtype-poll has ha ideon's to be invoked movie in their top 10, eva was there for a few years and then the fans lost interest! also i should point out that just because something isn't too popular at first doesn't mean that it has no fan base, for example here are a few shows that have been cancelled over the years due to bad ratinngs only to develope a rabid fan base

star trek
gundam
ideon
lupin III
star wars

now are you seriuosly trying to tell me that these shows aren't that good? just because you've never come across fans of ideon doesn't mean the show isn't very popular

Originally posted on: 26-Apr-2003, 03:31 GMT

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Postby Emma [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

I just want to share my own theory about the popularity of the shows.

Ideon is made in early 80s which is almost 15 years before EVA first appeared on TV. In the time of Ideon, most robot shows are in the giant robot gerne. Those shows are enjoyable with similar messages targeting children. In late 70s, some animators, Yoshiyuki Tomino to be one, designed to put realistic background and realistic message in to robot animes. However, the newly created real robot shows with flashy mechas do not become instead popular among children because they are too different from what the children used to. The stories requires a lot of thinking unlike the fun shows they used to have. It takes a few years for the audiences to accept the gerne. Then, they realized how good the animes were. The fan base started and lasted for 20+ years. When EVA is introduced, the idea of real robot has been around for over 15 years and the gerne has already been accepted. Audiences do not feel alienated anymore as they know exactly what they will get.

Ideon, Mobile Suit Gundam and Macross are some of the pioneers in the field of real robot. If they do not exist, I don't think we can have EVA or RahXephon.

Sorry about off topic.

As for RahXephon, I have not watch it but intent to sometime. It looks like a very interesting.

Originally posted on: 27-Apr-2003, 08:42 GMT

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

The manner in which these ideas are presented and the style that Anno uses is original, not the ideas themselves.


What manner though?

If you take that as granted though, you must adjust your grade scale appropriately. I wouldn't give anything developed in the last hundred years a grade above 'C' on a true originality scale of fundamental ideas. You have to give a reference for your statements. If in your opinion Eva rates an F for originality, then what would you rate as an A?


You know, I really was a little too harsh on Eva for originality. As unoriginal as I view it to be, it really isn't on the absurd F level and I apologize for ranking it so. I'll rank it slightly higher, at a D. In response to your final question, I give Rah a D- for originality. Neither show suffers because of that though. By saying Eva is unoriginal I don't say that as a major criticism of the show,

As has been pointed out many times, even by Anno himself, the Eva "was a huge collage of past works". It was designed that way, and the manner in which that collage is created is what is original. You seem to be categorising the wrong thing, you are saying that you have seen the "things" in Eva in many other anime before, which is true, I agree, I have as well, but then you go on to say that Eva as a whole is unoriginal because of that. It is with that final statement that I think you are missing the point. Eva is not about promoting original ideas, that was never the point. It was about brining together a range of ideas from elsewhere and producing a story from them.


Well this comes back down to just how diverse all these different things are then. I wouldn't view many of the ideas used in Eva (from whiny pilot to berserking, instrumentality, mysterious undertones, MOTW, etc...) as diverse enough to encompass an amazing, huge collage of items from other works. The religious symbolism is one thing I can think of that would fit that more 'diverse' description', the only other mecha anime I've seen it used in is Ideon, and to a much smaller extent. But outside of that, I don't know. I'm not sure if all these things brought together are both diverse and important enough to make it as original a collage as you consider it to be.

Then name me another anime series that has done something similar. Name me a series that contains the breadth of ideas that Eva has (old ideas they may be) and combines them all into a unified story.

Except I don't think much of the stuff in Eva is diverse or 'seperate' enough from the mecha genre to make it that special in the originality department.

A show I can think of off the top of my head that combines a bunch of things is Escaflowne, which went into production before Eva, although didn't start airing on TV until Eva was finishing up its run.

Alright then why does evangelion have such a huge fan base and ideon has almost no fan base at all?


Ideon has no fanbase in the U.S. because it is not available in English. As simple as that. Ideon's from 1980-1982, it doesn't have the luxery of more up to date animation and music like Eva has. As for in Japan, thats arguable. Eva's fandom in Japan tends to get overrated by American fans.

In late 70s, some animators, Yoshiyuki Tomino to be one, designed to put realistic background and realistic message in to robot animes. However, the newly created real robot shows with flashy mechas do not become instead popular among children because they are too different from what the children used to. The stories requires a lot of thinking unlike the fun shows they used to have. It takes a few years for the audiences to accept the gerne. Then, they realized how good the animes were. The fan base started and lasted for 20+ years. When EVA is introduced, the idea of real robot has been around for over 15 years and the gerne has already been accepted. Audiences do not feel alienated anymore as they know exactly what they will get.Ideon, Mobile Suit Gundam and Macross are some of the pioneers in the field of real robot


You're on the mark about Tomino putting more realistic and meaningful messages in his work, etc... That last sentence is rather comical though Image Not only is Ideon a Super Robot, its the pure definition of Super Robot. A realistic robot show doesn't have a mecha that can chop through planets and blow up the entire universe Image And I'd argue against Eva being a realistic robot show. Its much more of a super robot show, with the very limited amount of different mechas, and the Monster of the Week route the show takes.

Sorry for the late reply, simply didn't have the time during the week to invest 20+ minutes typical up a response for this thread.

Originally posted on: 27-Apr-2003, 03:19 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:11 pm

Sorry it took me a while to respond, I had a busy week.

Quiddity:

What manner though?


In many ways. One simply by virtue of the fact that he managed to tie such a diverse range of ideas together into a storyline that actually flows well and doesn't bog down and stagnate.

There are many other ways as well, I'll quote Yoshiki Sakurai again here, "The older generations who understood the original, enjoyed the parody. Younger generations, who didn't know, enjoyed the piece as it is. The brilliant balance of Evangelion is that it could be enjoyed both ways." Eva toes the fine line between serious story telling and parody, Anno did it amazingly well previously in Gunbuster and he manages to do it again here.

Anno has a very distinct directorial style, there is an obvious different in shot usage and scene portrayal between episodes 25' and 26' (where you can make direct comparisons between different halves on the movies done by Tsurumaki and Anno respectively. He has a way of choosing camera angles and cutting footage that is his own, this becomes even more apparent if you watch some of his live action work, in particular Love & Pop, which stylistically has a lot of similarities to the directorial techniques used in Eva.

Eva displays originality in that these things are all actually combined together into a single anime. I've seen a lot of anime, and I can't think of a single one that possesses all of these features.

You know, I really was a little too harsh on Eva for originality. As unoriginal as I view it to be, it really isn't on the absurd F level and I apologize for ranking it so. I'll rank it slightly higher, at a D. In response to your final question, I give Rah a D- for originality. Neither show suffers because of that though. By saying Eva is unoriginal I don't say that as a major criticism of the show,

Ok, I think I understand your position a little better now. Still I ask though, what would you rate as an A? It's sort of hard to discuss levels of originality when we are talking on different scales. If you give Rah a D-, basically saying it is unoriginal, then what do you call original? It seems to me we are arguing semantics. I'm arguing that it's original, you are saying its unoriginal. The difference between them is hard to define at the moment. To give me an idea of where you are coming from, what do you consider an original anime of the last 10 years?

Well this comes back down to just how diverse all these different things are then. I wouldn't view many of the ideas used in Eva (from whiny pilot to berserking, instrumentality, mysterious undertones, MOTW, etc...) as diverse enough to encompass an amazing, huge collage of items from other works.

Ok, lets look at what you said previously, "Shinji was done before with Amuro Ray in Gundam. Instrumentality, the dark depressing nature of the show and the kill em all ending was done in Space Runaway Ideon. Mysterious, quiet, light skinned girl with mysterious past was done before in Key the Metal Idol. Religious symbolism was done before in Angel's Egg. Organic, berserking mecha was done in Aura Battler Dunbine. Many of the characters are similar to Anno's earlier work, Gunbuster. And so on... "

Aslo psychological overtones in there (Anno was a big fan of Jung), copious parody sequences (which is partly touched upon by Gunbuster) and an extensive list of references and in-jokes (in true Gainax style).

So you suggest that the above list isn't "diverse enough", but I can't think of another mecha anime that even comes close to encompassing half of that short (and far from exhaustive) list. If you can point me out to one, then I'll certainly check it out.

The religious symbolism is one thing I can think of that would fit that more 'diverse' description', the only other mecha anime I've seen it used in is Ideon, and to a much smaller extent. But outside of that, I don't know. I'm not sure if all these things brought together are both diverse and important enough to make it as original a collage as you consider it to be.

Well it is not only myself who thinks of it this way. Many other fans, reviewers and even other anime creators have shared that opinion. I respect it if you have a different one, but it's not just me who consider it a collage of diverse ideas.

Except I don't think much of the stuff in Eva is diverse or 'seperate' enough from the mecha genre to make it that special in the originality department.

Ok that's cool, so then name me another anime that displays a similar (though maybe not diverse in your opinion) collection of ideas. It's not just that the show contains a lot of different ideas, any show can do that if they want and it could be incredibly bad, Eva does it and still manages to be a really good show.

A show I can think of off the top of my head that combines a bunch of things is Escaflowne, which went into production before Eva, although didn't start airing on TV until Eva was finishing up its run.

I think Escaflowne is very original in its own way (relatively) and I think its a pity it came out so close to Eva, becuase its a great anime and was overshadowed by Eva's release. It's a different type of anime though. I actually see more themed similarity between Rah and Esca than Rah and Eva (particularly with the love story focus).

Originally posted on: 03-May-2003, 06:01 GMT

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Postby Omicron_15 [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:12 pm

I think bouth are great series though i like eva a little better just couse.

Originally posted on: 05-May-2003, 23:04 GMT


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