Eva fans, your thoughts on RahXephon

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Postby nchan [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

I finished RahXephone, and I thought it was pretty good. This serie was as deep and rewatchable as Eva. Can we compare Eva and RahXephon? RahXephon too much like Eva? I'm an Eva fan and also like RahXephon, so I don't care if you bash either one.

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2003, 21:11 GMT

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Postby Jabberwock [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

And so you enter the devil's realm, my friend...

I've seen RahXephon's fansubs as well and think that though it is an excellent title in and of itself, it doesn't quite match up to my admiration of NGE. The two series are very similar and there is even an Ask John article about it, but if you're just talking preference, I'd choose NGE over RX about 60% of the time. Image

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2003, 21:15 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Haven't seen it.

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2003, 23:05 GMT

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Postby otakumau [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Rahxephon was Ok.
But I still prefer Eva.

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2003, 23:33 GMT

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Postby HimuraProns [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Eva was bad, (manga wasnt tho) Rahxeph was good.

Qoute Inital D: Its like comapring a goddess to a old maid and comparing chocolate to crap.

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2003, 23:48 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

HimuraProns wrote:Qoute Inital D: Its like comapring a goddess to a old maid and comparing chocolate to crap.


no it isn't.

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2003, 23:57 GMT

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Postby Capt.Coward [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

I've seen the first episode of RahXephon, it seems interesting. I've seen a lot of anime that I really liked, but none that have made me feel or think as much as Eva did. Who knows, maybe I will like RahXephon more, I doubt it though.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2003, 00:31 GMT

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Postby Hyaku-Shiki [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

They are both great series.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2003, 02:45 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Both are really great but Eva is still my fav.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2003, 09:09 GMT

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Postby CBwannabe [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

:::::LIGHT , light spoilers:::::










I just finished Rah myself and i think the key difference betweens the two is NGE was the pioneer. The level of originality is what put NGE in the front of the list of "Anime u GOTTA watch". Rah uses alot of the same plot twists and character personalities that made us love NGE. To be honest, I really DID end up liking Rah for itself (not for being a clone of NGE) by ep 26. Maybe because you get a much better "feeling" (and i use that term loosely) at the end, then the death and destruction in NGE. But even with this plus, NGE still is better. Will there ever be a clone of Eva like Rah thats better then then Eva? I guess we will have to see.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2003, 02:56 GMT

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Postby nchan [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

I've seen some RahXephon fans got upset whenever we mention that Rah was a clone of Eva. hahah... But they are somewhat very similar that is why I like both of them very much.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2003, 04:27 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

Here is a comparison of mine from an old AB thread on the same issue.

This really is no contest for me.

RahXephon was one of the best anime releases of last year. It had great animation, intriguing characters and good plot development.

Evangelion on the other hand is in my opinion one of the best anime releases ever.

The following is a comparison I wrote a while ago based on the first thirteen episodes:

Animation: On an animation front RahXephon is by far the superior, but considering Eva is almost 7 years old now, and it had low production values when it was first released anyway, that isn't surprising. RahXephon looks absolutely fantastic, and Eva looks very dated now, however I have always liked Sadamoto's character designs and his distinctive style, so when it comes to the individual "look" of the characters I prefer Evas.

Music: I much prefer Shiro Sagisu's score in Evangelion to the one in RahXephon. The BGM in Eva is superb (as is evidence by the number of Eva CD's that have been released containing it). Opening themes, well Hemisphere took a bit of getting use to, but I think its a great track and I find myself humming parts of it at odd moments. That being said overall I prefer Cruel Angel's Thesis, mainly because of my preference in music styles, which is a separate thing to anime all together, but there it is, it affects my tastes and it makes me prefer CAT.

Character development: Well RahXephon just has too many characters for my liking, there is not enough focus on individual character development so in this aspect I think Eva wins out. Also RahXephon seems to suffer from the "everyone must like someone else" syndrome which I am never a fan of. Can't there just be some characters who are not chasing after anyone? The first 13 episode of Eva set the an excellent foundation of character interaction in my opinion, particularly the Misato-Shinji and Shinji-Gendou relationship. RahXephon's first 13 only advance the characters in limited ways. Most are still very two dimensional (but this is very early in the series so I'm sure that will be expanded).

Plot: Well I am not really going to comment much here, you can't really discuss the plot of earlier episodes until your take into account what happens later on. RahXephon has gotten more in-depth that Eva attempted to be in the first 13 episodes. Eva's first 13 episodes were in a "monster of the week" style, however I think they were very important in setting up the respective characters and cementing their initial development (see above where I talk about character development). RahXephon has an excellent premise, and I some of the plot threads that have been stated in the first 13 episodes, so I am interested to see where they go.

Conclusion: I really like RahXephon, but I don't think it "completely blows Eva away". They are different series, with different traits. Eva got me hooked straight away, I thought the first 13 episodes were fantastic, and then the later episodes pushed it up over to the next level. RahXephon looks promising, it is shaping up to be a good show, but I again I don't think you can categorically state (with any degree of credibility at least) that the first 13 episodes of RahXephon are superior to the first 13 episodes of Eva in every way. Some aspects of one are stronger than the other and vice-versa. Anyway I withhold further comment until the completion of RahXephon.

Edit: I realise now that I haven't done up a full comparison having seen the entirety of RahXephon, so now I'll make a few more comments. These comments only have to do with RahXephon, I've posted extensively elsewhere on my thoughts on Eva.

Animation: Nothing really changed in RahXephon expect for a horrible outsourced episode later on and disappointing battle sequences towards the end of the series. On the whole I was quite disappointed in the way the action sequences were animated, for a mecha show trying to do something more these scenes should be quality by default. Overall though it had great animation.

Music: Some great pieces were used near the end, but overall, having listened to the three OST I have extensively, apart from the opening theme I was quite disappointed with the music. Being such a music orientated anime I would have expected a lot more.

Character development: The end of the series proved my fears in this respect. Too many characters resulted in my having little or no reaction to their plight. A token two minute cutaway every couple of episodes is not enough to make me care about a character. Particularly right at the end when… Spoilers . so many characters were killed off … I wasn't moved by what happened. RahXephon diluted itself too much among to many characters and this is my biggest complaint with the show.

Plot: I really liked the plot of RahXephon. It has a lot of the 'extra' aspects that I like with my mecha. I don't know how long I will spend discussing it though. It just doesn't seem to prompting the same level of questions in viewers as Eva did (and I was around in the early days of Eva discussion so I think I am in a credible position to make such a judgement). It is a very thought provoking plot, and that is one of the reasons I like this show so much, however overall I wasn't stimulated anywhere near the extent I was with Eva (Though I'm more than five years older now, and I've learnt a lot in that time).

Conclusion: RahXephon is a great series. Evangelion is a fantastic series. Almost everything done in RahXephon I think is done better in Eva. The only exception really to this is the animation quality (time and production values account for this of course). The series ending of Evangelion blew my mind, had me pondering it for weeks afterwards. Some say this is the weakest point of Eva, I personally think it is it's strongest. The End of Evangelion put the final icing on the cake, producing the flip side to the coin and providing the ending that wasn't given in the series. RahXephon travelled smoothly, it did almost everything right, but in my opinion it just came up second best. It couldn't invoke in me the feelings, the emotion that Eva did. I will remember Eva strongly twenty years from now (I dare say anime society will as well considering the influence it had on the manner in which anime went to air in Japan) however I don't think the same will be the case with RahXephon.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2003, 05:59 GMT

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

I just finished Rah myself and i think the key difference betweens the two is NGE was the pioneer. The level of originality is what put NGE in the front of the list of "Anime u GOTTA watch".


Wha? Time to become familiar with anime history :p If Evangelion has to be graded on originality, then the grade is a F. Eva is a great show because it has very good writing, powerful imagery and good execution through the second half. And the movie is fabulous. But to say that the level of originality is what put Eva on the list of 'gotta watch' shows is just absurd. Shinji was done before with Amuro Ray in Gundam. Instrumentality, the dark depressing nature of the show and the kill em all ending was done in Space Runaway Ideon. Mysterious, quiet, light skinned girl with mysterious past was done before in Key the Metal Idol. Religious symbolism was done before in Angel's Egg. Organic, berserking mecha was done in Aura Battler Dunbine. Many of the characters are similar to Anno's earlier work, Gunbuster. And so on... Saying Eva's a must see show based on the writing, or the character development, etc... is fine. Not originality, because Eva is FAR from original.

And keep in mind this has nothing to do with comparing the 2, since RahXephon is just as blatantly unoriginal as Eva is.

And for the record, I prefer RahXephon although the gap isn't too big.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2003, 06:11 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

I think Eva is very original, just not in the way in which you describe.

I think Production I.G's Yoshiki Sakurai sums it up best.

"Influences or copying could be seen commonly within Japanese anime itself as well. Evangelion succeeded in utilitating and expressing the situation. It was, as it is often said, FULL of parodies and influences or sometimes even exact copies (on purpose of course) from some scenes of various anime, manga and Japanese modern novels and WW2 warship names etc etc etc not to mention the Bible. Anno-san himself says it was a huge collage of past works.

The older generations who understood the original, enjoyed the parody. Younger generations who didn't know, enjoyed the piece as it is. The brilliant ballance of Evangelion is that it could be enjoyed both ways. "


I don't think it's very fair to say that Eva rates a grade of F on the originality scale. Eva's originality comes with the way Anno strings together old ideas in new ways. Quiddity you mention specific anime that display particular characters, ideas or themes, Eva was original in the manner in which it brought all these together.

Try and name a pre-Eva anime that brings together all of these diverse ideas in the manner Anno used.

Originally posted on: 20-Apr-2003, 07:35 GMT

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Postby CBwannabe [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:03 pm

I agree, MDWings. Quiddity, You mention several separate animes with these different attributes but not one of them has them all in one package. If you judge an anime like that, then theres no way that you could consider any of the recent anime original at all. You can always find a similarity with one anime to another. I could compare DBZ with Evangelion if I wanted too(but doing so would cause my death from 2 million eva fans with sharpened hatchets :eekImage. Anyways, it is true, tho. I dont know my anime history nor do I choose to research it. What we have now is superior to all the animes you listed before and anime will continue to get better as the years go on. But in the case of Eva, its timeless. There are just things in it that you cant stop from sticking to you. Maybe by saying what you said, youre saying that all those other anime meant the same to you and they are timeless. If thats so then I have no argument. Its your opinion and you choice to feel that way. Overall its just a matter of perspective

Originally posted on: 21-Apr-2003, 08:24 GMT

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Postby okendri [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Anyways, it is true, tho. I dont know my anime history nor do I choose to research it. What we have now is superior to all the animes you listed before and anime will continue to get better as the years go on



How can you say that today's anime is superior to the ones that Quiddity listed when you choose to ignore the history of it and have only seen EVA. Only after watching those anime can you honestly say which ones are better. Quiddity never said that those shows were better than EVA just that some of the ideas from those show were reused in EVA and that part of it is unorginal. A lot of people on message call Rah a ripoff of EVA because of the similarities between the two, but both have the same roots. So to call EVA original and RAH a ripoff is unfair.

Originally posted on: 21-Apr-2003, 08:44 GMT

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

[quote="MDWigs "][B]I think Eva is very original, just not in the way in which you describe.

I think Production I.G's Yoshiki Sakurai sums it up best.


I don't think it's very fair to say that Eva rates a grade of F on the originality scale. Eva's originality comes with the way Anno strings together old ideas in new ways. Quiddity you mention specific anime that display particular characters, ideas or themes, Eva was original in the manner in which it brought all these together.


But those ideas are all unoriginal, many of them mega cliches. Simply putting them together doesn't make it original. We can twist that around to encompass an absurd amount of unoriginal anime. And new ways? I'd argue against that. What new ways did Eva feature? Heck, Eva finished the exact same way Ideon ended up, with the only difference being that it was a smaller scale in Eva (Earth in Eva compared to whole universe in Ideon)

Try and name a pre-Eva anime that brings together all of these diverse ideas in the manner Anno used.

I'd wager against these being diverse in the same place. Bringing these things together isn't groundbreaking or original.

You mention several separate animes with these different attributes but not one of them has them all in one package. If you judge an anime like that, then theres no way that you could consider any of the recent anime original at all.

Put together two Tomino animes from the late 70s/Early 80s in Mobile Suit Gundam and Space Runaway Ideon and you have almost everything. Two animes Anno admitted himself as being huge influences.

As for the second comment, well practically nothing in entertainment is original at all. There's nothing wrong with that, thats just the way things are. Image

I agree with your final statement however, it is all up to perspective and in the end I'm not gonna claim what I say as fact, its just my opinion. Seeing the things I've seen in Eva in so many other animes doesn't make it original to me, its as simple as that.

Originally posted on: 21-Apr-2003, 01:04 GMT

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Postby GandalfsWhisper [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Alright then, name a completely original mech that's shown up in the last 10 years.

Originally posted on: 21-Apr-2003, 01:35 GMT

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Postby MDWigs [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Quiddity:

But those ideas are all unoriginal, many of them mega cliches. Simply putting them together doesn't make it original.


You are right, it doesn't make those ideas original, but that's not what I'm suggesting. Many of those ideas are as old as story telling itself. The way in which Anno relates those ideas though, the manner in which he puts them together is very original in my opinion. Just to reiterate, becuase it seems that you missed the point of my last post, "Eva's originality comes with the way Anno strings together old ideas in new ways.". The manner in which these ideas are presented and the style that Anno uses is original, not the ideas themselves.

And new ways? I'd argue against that. What new ways did Eva feature? Heck, Eva finished the exact same way Ideon ended up, with the only difference being that it was a smaller scale in Eva (Earth in Eva compared to whole universe in Ideon)

Again it seems you are missing my point. It is not specific events that are important, it is clear that Anno borrowed old ideas from elsewhere. What is important, what makes Eva special, is the way it gets all these different ideas, from different places and puts them together. Eva's ending is obviously a homage to Ideon's. That's not what I mean though when I say "new ways". What I mean is that that ending was coupled in with other ideas, from many other sources, and combined to form an overriding story. The way in which Anno did that is original in my opinion, not the events themselves.

I'd wager against these being diverse in the same place. Bringing these things together isn't groundbreaking or original.

Then name me another anime series that has done something similar. Name me a series that contains the breadth of ideas that Eva has (old ideas they may be) and combines them all into a unified story.

Put together two Tomino animes from the late 70s/Early 80s in Mobile Suit Gundam and Space Runaway Ideon and you have almost everything. Two animes Anno admitted himself as being huge influences.

Anno is a big fan of Tomino's work, but MSG + Ideon != Eva. You named six anime in your original post that contained ideas portrayed in Eva. Anno is a huge fan of Ultraman, and there are references to that in Eva. Anno reads a lot of SF and there are multiple references to different stories in his works, Cordwainer Smith's "The Instrumentality of Mankind" (dating from as early as 1958) is an obvious example. There are multiple references to the psychological and biological sciences as well.

I hardly think that Ideon and MSG encapsulate "almost everything" contained within Eva.

As for the second comment, well practically nothing in entertainment is original at all. There's nothing wrong with that, thats just the way things are.

If you take that as granted though, you must adjust your grade scale appropriately. I wouldn't give anything developed in the last hundred years a grade above 'C' on a true originality scale of fundamental ideas. You have to give a reference for your statements. If in your opinion Eva rates an F for originality, then what would you rate as an A?

I agree with your final statement however, it is all up to perspective and in the end I'm not gonna claim what I say as fact, its just my opinion. Seeing the things I've seen in Eva in so many other animes doesn't make it original to me, its as simple as that.

As has been pointed out many times, even by Anno himself, the Eva "was a huge collage of past works". It was designed that way, and the manner in which that collage is created is what is original. You seem to be categorising the wrong thing, you are saying that you have seen the "things" in Eva in many other anime before, which is true, I agree, I have as well, but then you go on to say that Eva as a whole is unoriginal because of that. It is with that final statement that I think you are missing the point. Eva is not about promoting original ideas, that was never the point. It was about brining together a range of ideas from elsewhere and producing a story from them.

To quote Yoshiki Sakurai again, "The older generations who understood the original, enjoyed the parody. Younger generations who didn't know, enjoyed the piece as it is. The brilliant ballance of Evangelion is that it could be enjoyed both ways."

This is what makes Eva special in my opinion, and this is what I think it does that no anime I've seen before or after it has achieved is quite the same way.

Finally a quick question, what grade do you give RahXephon for originality?

Originally posted on: 21-Apr-2003, 07:32 GMT

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Postby Depression [ANF] » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm

Lol wigs, just make your comparison a sticky.

Originally posted on: 23-Apr-2003, 05:56 GMT


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