Kaworu and SEELE

[Dave]

What did SEELE hope to accomplish by sending Kaworu to NERV? At first I thought they wanted to destroy NERV HQ, but in the director's cut one of SEELE's members states that they "...pray unit 01 will accomplish it's task.".

[Quiddity]

Initiate Third Impact with someone on their side perhaps? They certainly didn't want it under Gendou's control.

Isn't that the conversation from the Director's Cut that also has SEELE telling Kaworu that Adam is in Gendou's hand, therefore completely invalidating the entire second half of the episode? I don't know how much trust should be put in what is said in that conversation.

[TheMessiah]

later in the episode he states that he knew Shinji would take down unit 02


so maybe he meant for him to get rid of the last eva. which would make sense knowing that they planned on sending the completed eva series over.

btw- its seele

(its german meaning soul) ^^

[Dave]

It is a different conversation than the one SEELE had with Kaworu.

[TheMessiah]

huh? what are you talking about


he told Shinji he expected him to defeat unit 02

[Dave]

Sorry I was responding to Quiddity's post.

[Arcadian83]

Hrm, my Director's Cuts manage to escape me at the moment, so I can't comment on the validity of that Kaworu/Seele dialogue....

It seems to me that at this point we've narrowed down Seele's intentions of sending Kaworu to NERV to the options of:

1) Initiating 3rd impact under Seele's control, making the EoE invasion a contingency to his failure (in which case the questionable dialogue comes in asking why didn't Kaworu just go to Gendou for Adam, then, unlike being drawn to Lillith like the other angels)

2) To commandeer Unit 02 so Unit 01 could kill it, so that it wouldn't be such a problem for the Eva Series in the EoE invasion (which implies "...pray unit 01 will accomplish it's task." refers to Unit 01 defeating Unit 02)

I have problems with both of these options:
1) Why would Seele send Kaworu to NERV to be suckered into going to Lillith by not telling him that Gendou had Adam, and why would Kaworu go to Lillith if they -did- tell him? Also, I think having Kaworu initiate 3rd impact for Seele would be putting a lot of trust in an angel.
2) Sending in the Eva Series was a reaction to Unit 02's activation (poison against poison). Sending Kaworu for the purpose of killing Unit 02 implies that they did not send him to cause 3rd impact, so why risk 3rd impact when they had the Eva Series ready as a death sentence for Unit 02 anyways? (numerous Evas each with Lance of Longinus replicas can be expected to win against one without, imo)

One possibility that struck me is for option 1: maybe Kaworu's seemingly illogical action of going to Lillith and saying "Oops, I'm screwed, you can kill me now, Shinji" is in fact -not- Seele's intention. Perhaps it's more a question of Kaworu's intentions. This however, may be it's own discussion. (If you want to talk about Kaworu's intentions, please start a new thread)

Any alternate ideas or have I misjudged one of these?

[KaworuNagisa17]

Hrm, my Director's Cuts manage to escape me at the moment, so I can't comment on the validity of that Kaworu/Seele dialogue....

It seems to me that at this point we've narrowed down Seele's intentions of sending Kaworu to NERV to the options of:

1) Initiating 3rd impact under Seele's control, making the EoE invasion a contingency to his failure (in which case the questionable dialogue comes in asking why didn't Kaworu just go to Gendou for Adam, then, unlike being drawn to Lillith like the other angels)

2) To commandeer Unit 02 so Unit 01 could kill it, so that it wouldn't be such a problem for the Eva Series in the EoE invasion (which implies "...pray unit 01 will accomplish it's task." refers to Unit 01 defeating Unit 02)

I have problems with both of these options:
1) Why would Seele send Kaworu to NERV to be suckered into going to Lillith by not telling him that Gendou had Adam, and why would Kaworu go to Lillith if they -did- tell him? Also, I think having Kaworu initiate 3rd impact for Seele would be putting a lot of trust in an angel.
2) Sending in the Eva Series was a reaction to Unit 02's activation (poison against poison). Sending Kaworu for the purpose of killing Unit 02 implies that they did not send him to cause 3rd impact, so why risk 3rd impact when they had the Eva Series ready as a death sentence for Unit 02 anyways? (numerous Evas each with Lance of Longinus replicas can be expected to win against one without, imo)

One possibility that struck me is for option 1: maybe Kaworu's seemingly illogical action of going to Lillith and saying "Oops, I'm screwed, you can kill me now, Shinji" is in fact -not- Seele's intention. Perhaps it's more a question of Kaworu's intentions. This however, may be it's own discussion. (If you want to talk about Kaworu's intentions, please start a new thread)

Any alternate ideas or have I misjudged one of these?

the Eva Series was created to be used during 3rd Impact...at least the version of 3I that SEELE wanted. on Kaworu's mission?? probably to do what the other angels do, which is find Adam. However, Keel didn't know that Gendo already had Adam w/ him (in his hand). Thus, SEELE sent Kaworu to start their 3I but were defeated by Gendo's actions and the fact that Kaworu fell in love w/ humanity.

[Invincible Kaji]

It could just simply be that SEELE knew that Gendo would have Kaworu taken out when they figured out what he was because all the Angels had to be defeated in order for SEELE's 3rd Impact scenario to be implemented.

[KaworuNagisa17]

It could just simply be that SEELE knew that Gendo would have Kaworu taken out when they figured out what he was because all the Angels had to be defeated in order for SEELE's 3rd Impact scenario to be implemented.

indeed

[Phaze]

If Kaworu had merged with Adam, Third Impact wouldn't have started, Adam would have just been complete again. This raises questions regarding whether Adam and/or Liliths' souls are needed for third impact, or just their physical forms. My guess is that both soul and body are required, why else would Rei have been at Kaworu's death other than to collect his soul? I guess Rei had planned to betray Gendo even that early on.

It couldn't be a matter of what Kaworu's intentions are, because, if you remember his dialogue, he realizes that he went to Lilith instead of Adam.

The most logical answer? It's a mistake.

[kosure]

This, whole, "How did Seele want third impact to go" thing has confused me ever since in finished EoE for the first time. Pretty much all I know conclusivly is that Seele wanted thigs to go diffrently than Gendou. I guess the realised that all gendou wanted was to be with Yui.

[Xanatose]

The difference between Seele's version of Instrumentality and Gendo's is only touched on vaguely. At one point, the Seele council is speaking with Kaoru in the director's cut version of episode 24. There they say Gendo seeks to open and close "Pandora's box" before humans could be saved. It seems that Gendo is attempting to take control a naturally chaotic situation and by using Rei, he planned to be taken to Yui.

This was an option unavailable to Seele, since they couldn't all take over Instrumentality simultaneously as a group, but it also seems that they don't care. Keel seems pretty content with the way things turn out in EOE when Instrumentality is freed of control, and proceeds without Gendo at the helm. With Shinji broken, Instrumentality is unleashed full force. Then Keel clasps his hands and smiles, saying, "good. Everything is good." (in my fansub version)

As for Kaoru and Seele; I've held the theory for a while that Kaoru was actually betrayed by Seele. He was told by them in the director's cut version of 24 that humans were naturally unhappy and that Seele's "hope" was manifesting in their plan for instrumentality. Kaoru later says, "mans hope is despair" (to paraphrase.) Kaoru seems to know something is not quite right, but goes along with the idea that humans need to be saved from themselves. He's obviously not taking a great deal of joy in what he's doing, but goes about it anyway. Meanwhile, Seele is celebrating the knowledge that Eva-01 will be used against Kaoru. So just whose side were they rooting for? Ultimately, Kaoru finds that he has been led not to Adam, but to Lillith, and that he's essentially been sent on a wild goose chase. It was a suicide mission he was told would save the world. Realizing that the opportunity for another alternative was present, he didn't resist when it came time for him to die.

Anyway, this has only been my assessment. I need to think it through a bit more. I still can't quite decide why they decided to send an "angel." They seem to know well enough that he isn't the same type of angel as those which had been attacking previously. If he is, then so is Rei. I'll agree that they fall into the vague classification requirements (blue patterns, and such), but they're clearlly of a different stock. We can't know if this was this part of the dead sea scrolls, but it may be even more complex than just that. And further, are we missing something? Just how much do we not know, and how much do we need to know before we can find an answer?

[Invincible Kaji]

It was more than likely part of a plan. Both SEELE and Gendo know of a "timetable/schedule" and "plan" that the viewers no little to nothing about.

Kaworu was intentionally sent by SEELE, but the exact why is still very fuzzy. However, we can safely guess that SEELE wanted Kaworu dead, and didn't really want him to set off the Impact.

[kosure]

Kaoru seems to know something is not quite right, but goes along with the idea that humans need to be saved from themselves. He's obviously not taking a great deal of joy in what he's doing, but goes about it anyway. Meanwhile, Seele is celebrating the knowledge that Eva-01 will be used against Kaoru. So just whose side were they rooting for? Ultimately, Kaoru finds that he has been led not to Adam, but to Lillith, and that he's essentially been sent on a wild goose chase. It was a suicide mission he was told would save the world. Realizing that the opportunity for another alternative was present, he didn't resist when it came time for him to die.

Okay. This is very good, and makes a lot of sense to me, and I want to thank you xanatose for posting it. But I have one question. I geuss this goes to Invincible Kaji's; "we can safely guess that SEELE wanted Kaworu dead".

Are you saying that it was a suicide mission, beacuse Seele knew where adam was, and told Kaworu the wrong place? I don't understand how it was a suicide mission? Or is it just a suicide mission beacuse Seele figures if they send an angel to NERV, it will get destroyed. Which I guess isn't a bad thing to assume. Anyway.... Just how exactly was It a suicide mission, AND, why did seele want to get rid of him so bad?

[Invincible Kaji]

Okay, SEELE needed all of the Angels dead to realize its 3rd Impact scenario.

They sent Kaworu in full knowledge of what he was, but all they really hoped for was that Gendo would flip out at this and have him taken out.

The Angels do attack in an intelligent manner, and Kaworu was taking advantage of his human form for a while either for his own reasons, or he did not attack immediately due to orders from SEELE.

I believe Kaworu only allowed himself to be killed for two reasons:

1. He had indeed fallen in love with humanity to a degree, and did mean to place the choice of 3rd Impact in man's hands.

2. Because of the misdirection from SEELE, Gendo, everyone who knew what he was, he knew he'd never finish his mission. Especially since Shinji had just torn Eva 02 to shreds.

[Phaze]

If he is, then so is Rei. I'll agree that they fall into the vague classification requirements (blue patterns, and such), but they're clearlly of a different stock. We can't know if this was this part of the dead sea scrolls, but it may be even more complex than just that. And further, are we missing something? Just how much do we not know, and how much do we need to know before we can find an answer?

Though they are angels, in reality they are just Adam and Lilith in different forms, human forms. The odd thing about this, is that though they are clearly angels, unlike the other angels, they had self-control, and knew the differences between good and evil. The angels recieved the fruit of life, as humans recieved the fruit of wisdom, but Kaworu and Rei are stuck inbetween, that would make them god, most likely overlooked during production.

[kosure]

Okay, SEELE needed all of the Angels dead to realize its 3rd Impact scenario.

That. I did not know. Why is that. I know that Keel (and probablly all of Seele too) wanted everyone to become one. That was their main aim. If this is right (which i like to think it is) then I have three more questions.

1. Why did they need all the angels dead?

2. Were they just waiting for an apporperiate time to send Kaworu to his death?

and 3. If they needed all the angels dead, what were they planning on doing with Rei?

I though they were planning on recombining Kaworu with adam, and Rei with lillith later on. Which brings me to another question, or not really a question, but just something strange.

Seele told Kaworu to go to Nerv, and to find adam on the cross in terminal dogma, and initate thrid Impact. But if adam really was on the cross nothing would happen. Beacuse Adam+Adam =Adam. But, as we all know, It was really Lillith on the cross. I guess what im saying is that I think its really risky for Seele to send him into Nerv, and tell him to touch Lillith. (which would initate thrid impact) Unless they really wanted him to intiate thrid impact.


*starts to shake, and then head explodes*

this eva stuff is hard.

[Phaze]

It's unknown why the angels need to be killed before initiating third impact, if you want to be logical, you'd say it's because they needed to fill in all 26 episodes (there were originally 12 apostles). Of course logic rarely applies in Eva, so to randomly toss out a theory, I'd say it's because since there's basically a power struggle between Gendo, Seele, and the angels, Gendo and Seele had to temporarily join forces to rid themselves of the angels (Seele knew perfectly well Gendo was concealing the truth from them, and yet they continued funding NERV) because if the angels were still alive, they could interrupt Third Impact.

Kaworu mentioned that either the angels or the Lilim (humans) would be allowed to survive, this is because Adam and Lilith, who spread life throughout the universe, (Lilith bornes humans, as Adam does angels) both accidentally came to earth, Lilith brings human life to earth, and humans are born from the black moon, as Adam brings angel life to earth, from the white moon.

SEELE 01:
But 'our' hopes are materializing...
SEELE:
In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from the Black Moon...
SEELE:
And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from the lost White Moon.

This conversation between Seele and Kaworu hilights what I just went over. This also may begin to answer what Seele had in mind for their version of Third Impact.

[kosure]

Okay that makes sense. Thanks. Im going to open a new thread to continue talking about Rei, cause it donesn't fit under the Kaworu & Seele topic.