Anno and Kubrick and some other people

[Eva Yojimbo]

You just sold this anime for me. This better be worthy of THAT hype or else...

Oh dear, I fear I might have hyped it too much. It's not as... technically accomplished as Ozu (precise, geometrical framing, subtle uses of various narrative and visual devices, etc.), or as honestly poignant (if that makes sense) in a way only Ozu could be. But I feel it akin in spirit. If you want, here's a couple of reviews including my own.

BTW, if that sold HR for you, Texhnolyze is the Kubrick... or maybe more Tarkovsky of anime.

[Xard]

You just sold this anime for me. This better be worthy of THAT hype or else...

Oh dear, I fear I might have hyped it too much. It's not as... technically accomplished as Ozu (precise, geometrical framing, subtle uses of various narrative and visual devices, etc.), or as honestly poignant (if that makes sense) in a way only Ozu could be. But I feel it akin in spirit. If you want, here's a couple of reviews including my own.

BTW, if that sold HR for you, Texhnolyze is the Kubrick... or maybe more Tarkovsky of anime.

I was going to say Anno is Kubrick of anime but then I remembered he is better than Kubrick

That said I really feel Anno is one of the best directors, like, ever. After all no one else has managed to sneak THREE works in My Top Ten of Everything (those being NGE, Shiki-Jitsu and Bustgu- I mean Gunbuster). Of course then there's übermaestros like Tarkovsky and Bergman...

I think Anno is Godard of anime. Often both stay on the "working" side of the fence just barely and sometimes both takes dips at the side of "crap".

Though Anno is much better director than Godard. Or Fellini. *cough cough*

And there is no Tarkovsky of anime. There just isn't.


-------

Great review Yojimbo, you just got me hyped for anime in such lenghts I didn't think it was possible without it being Miyazaki.

Have you watched Cat Soup? It is awesome, awesome

[Eva Yojimbo]

I was going to say Anno is Kubrick of anime but then I remembered he is better than Kubrick Though Anno is much better director than Godard. Or Fellini. *cough cough*

To be fair I haven't seen any other animes of Anno's except NGE so I'll refrain from taking up that argument.

Of course then there's übermaestros like Tarkovsky and Bergman...

What's your top 10 directors list look like? I finally put one together and it's like this:

1. Akira Kurosawa
2. Ingmar Bergman
3. Hou Hsiao-hsien
4. John Ford
5. Stanley Kubrick
6. Alfred Hitchcock
7. David Lynch
8. Jean-Luc Godard
9. Yasujiro Ozu
10. Luis Bunuel

There are some greats that just miss the 10 like Tarkovsky, Bresson, Fellini, Murnau and Eisenstein. As you can see I really value an extensive filmography.

I think Anno is Godard of anime. Often both stay on the "working" side of the fence just barely and sometimes both takes dips at the side of "crap".

I've so often compared NGE to Godard in its deconstructionist attitude and intent on various anime subversions. I love one summary of Breathless that said "this is at once a homage to the American gangster film, and an attack on the very ideas of Americans, gangsters and films", which, applied to NGE just replace "Americans, gangsters, and films" with "Japanese, mecha, and anime".

And there is no Tarkovsky of anime. There just isn't.

Not a director, no. But Texhnolyze gives off that same tone. You can read my review of it HERE. (first spotlight review)

Great review Yojimbo, you just got me hyped for anime in such lenghts I didn't think it was possible without it being Miyazaki.

Of course, now if you hate it you'll have to lash out at me for making it sound so much better than you think it actually was.

[chee]

I was going to say Anno is Kubrick of anime but then I remembered he is better than Kubrick

<snip>

Though Anno is much better director than Godard.

I don't mean to be rude or condescending, but

[Eva Yojimbo]

I don't mean to be rude or condescending, but

I thought it sounded a bit ridiculous too, but again, I haven't seen Anno's other works.

[Xard]

No offense taken, that was provokation from my part

I was going to say Anno is Kubrick of anime but then I remembered he is better than Kubrick

<snip>

Though Anno is much better director than Godard.

I don't mean to be rude or condescending, but

What, he definetly is better than Godard.

NGE and Shiki-Jitsu blows Kubrick's best works out of the water too. Well to be exact only NGE beats Space Odyssey 2001 - which does have its flaws - but point stands. Shiki-Jitsu is better movie than Shining, Full Metal Jacket, Clockwork Orange... Dunno about Strangelove, haven't seen it.

When going all orgasmic over Kubrick's work it is very easy to forget he was nearly as uneven director Ridley Scott is. Anno's overall score is thus higher as he only has one truly mediocre work - Nadia and even that was one for which he didn't write script.

NGE > Space Odyssey 2001 > Shiki-Jitsu > Shining > Clockwork Orange > Full Metal Jacket > Rest.

If we continue on animators I'd also argue Hayao Miyazaki is also better director than Kubrick.

[Eva Yojimbo]

What, he definetly is better than Godard.

Godard was one of the most revolutionary and idiosyncratic directors ever. His influence is rivaled only by a few. He also has an incredibly diverse filmography that I'm guessing you haven't seen all of. If we're talking influence and originality, Godard wins. If we're talking technical ability or creativity then it becomes a different discussion.

Well to be exact only NGE beats Space Odyssey 2001 - which does have its flaws - but point stands.

2001 has flaws? What? In many ways I feel it's the single most perfect film ever made. In fact, in some ways it stands up better to analysis than NGE because it was very meticulously constructed. It's also the densest film I know of, only EoE rivals it.

Shiki-Jitsu is better movie than Shining, Full Metal Jacket, Clockwork Orange... Dunno about Strangelove, haven't seen it.

I'll have to see it, but I find this rather unfathomable. And Strangelove is Kubrick's best after 2001 - definitely see it.

When going all orgasmic over Kubrick's work it is very easy to forget he was nearly as uneven director Ridley Scott is.

I disagree. I think his work was consistently excellent and from Strangelove on it was almost entirely masterpieces (well, The Shining and FMJ besides).

If we continue on animators I'd also argue Hayao Miyazaki is also better director than Kubrick.

No.

[Xard]

What, he definetly is better than Godard.

Godard was one of the most revolutionary and idiosyncratic directors ever. His influence is rivaled only by a few. He also has an incredibly diverse filmography that I'm guessing you haven't seen all of. If we're talking influence and originality, Godard wins. If we're talking technical ability or creativity then it becomes a different discussion.

Indeed. Godard is one of the best and is easily one of the most influential after Hitchcock. But his works tend to be very flawed too. He certainly hasn't made any "perfect" works like e.g Bergman has. And if just considering intriguing storytelling ability without huge artistic implications Anno wins (Gunbuster and somewhat Kare Kano fits under this).

Both are awesome directors, Godard was more innovative, Anno has better cinematography and ability of executing "basic stuff".

Most importantly (when comparing these very similar directors) Godard has made some really bad and ridiculous shit too in his quest for experimenting. Honestly, even at his worst due to experimenting (aka half of Love&Pop) Anno doesn't get even near as bad (and his stuff is actually still watchable) as Godard sometimes. Ever seen cult classic "documentary" about Sympathy for Devil by Godard?

Well to be exact only NGE beats Space Odyssey 2001 - which does have its flaws - but point stands.

2001 has flaws? What? In many ways I feel it's the single most perfect film ever made. In fact, in some ways it stands up better to analysis than NGE because it was very meticulously constructed. It's also the densest film I know of, only EoE rivals it.

I think 2001 is quite likely greatest movie ever but yes, it has flaws, mainly due to aging. What comes immeaditly into my mind is the Monkey (how imaginative naming from my part) picks up the bone and yadda yadda yadda

It's somewhat corny scene when looking back to it from modern day. Mainly due to Also Spracht Zarathustra. Scene features some interesting and well done cutting but is way too long (note I have nothing against long shots) when remembering its "essence".

Too long and repetetive shot added together with riduclous, booming orchestral effect = lulz

Thank god it ends with best transition ever (the famous bone-space station shot) which saves the sequence but yeah, it is flawed scene

Shiki-Jitsu is better movie than Shining, Full Metal Jacket, Clockwork Orange... Dunno about Strangelove, haven't seen it.

I'll have to see it, but I find this rather unfathomable. And Strangelove is Kubrick's best after 2001 - definitely see it.

Well, maybe not better than Clockwork Orange - though certainly more enjoyable film :P - but heads above Shining, FMJ, Spartacus and whatnot. Shining may be best horror movie ever, but FMJ is quite average movie (Apocalypse Now is hundreds times better as far as Vietnam movies go), Spartacus has aged badly and wasn't masterpiece to begin with etc. Only film Shiki-Jitsu is comparable to is 8½ I think, they're similar in their beautiful cinematography. And both are pure masterpieces.

I feel Shiki-Jitsu is in some ways superior to Eva too. I mean, it is telling I watched the movie three times without knowing WTF they were talking

When going all orgasmic over Kubrick's work it is very easy to forget he was nearly as uneven director Ridley Scott is.

I disagree. I think his work was consistently excellent and from Strangelove on it was almost entirely masterpieces (well, The Shining and FMJ besides).

The Shining is great. FMJ isn't. And the movies he has made after Strangelove...

2001 (masterpiece)
A Clockwork Orange (masterpiece)
Barry Lyndon (great)
The Shining (great)
Full Metal Jacket (ok)
Eyes Wide Shut (ok)

I see "only" two masterpieces in there.

If we continue on animators I'd also argue Hayao Miyazaki is also better director than Kubrick.

No.

YES

[chee]

Sorry, but I find NGE to be more uneven than 2001. Also, Miyazaki's films, with a few exceptions, have little that can't be gleaned from first viewing. Kubrick's works, on the other hand, reveal more with each viewing. In fact, within the pantheon of anime directors, I think Miyazaki's slightly overrated. He's gifted, no doubt about that, but IMHO the films of Satoshi Kon and Mamoru Oshii are far, far more interesting from both a visual and thematic standpoint.

Although I've only seen Anno's work on NGE/Rebuild, I gotta say that the middle third is, at least IMHO, weaker than the first and last third/EoE; also Rebuild, while visually astounding, has a narrative that feels a bit too rushed and the film overall has a slightly soulless vibe to it, as if Anno just wanted to get that part of the story over and done with. I never got that vibe from any of Godard's films that I've seen. I'm not saying I think Anno's a bad director- I think he's a very good director, but I just don't think he's better than Godard or Kubrick.

I haven't seen a whole lot of Tarkovsky, although I plan on getting around to finishing Stalker.

[Xard]

I haven't seen a whole lot of Tarkovsky, although I plan on getting around to finishing Stalker.

Well, either Stalker or Mirror is pretty much best films ever made (or maybe 2001 is)

I've never liked Mamoru Oshii's works too much. He doesn't have this unexplainable glitter of genius in him as GitS 2 showcases. I could rant on him but I won't because he is good nonetheless.

Satoshi Kon is great though

And I doubt anyone would claim NGE wouldn't be uneven work. Heck, it would be quite worrisome for Kubrick if NGE wasn't more uneven. 2001 is ONE movie. NGE is long tv-series with more limited budget and other restraints, guest ep. directors, different animation studios for different eps etc.

Anno was one of the few core people who had hand on Eva non-stop

End of Evangelion vs 2001 is another beast though

[Xard]

C'mon guys don't let this topic die :(

[Eva Yojimbo]

Not letting it die, I just now noticed the split (lol, "and other people").

But his works tend to be very flawed too.

Flaws are all about perception of what the artist intended and how they failed, in that respect it's pretty darn subjective. The thing about Godard is he always claimed that he didn't make films but attempts at films, and if succeeded then that was great and if he failed then it was just an attempt. I love about Godard what I love about jazz and that's the improvisation, momentary creativity, that pure expression of talent, innovation, experimentation. Any flaws in Godard are like wrong notes in jazz - which is kind of a contradiction in itself.

He certainly hasn't made any "perfect" works like e.g Bergman has.

I don't know of a Bergman film that I'd call perfect either, but then again I can't think of any work of art I'd call perfect. Tis human to be flawed. I think the only things that come close to perfection, as in impossible to be improved upon are some musical compositions by the master composers and works like the Sistine Chapel.

Both are awesome directors, Godard was more innovative, Anno has better cinematography and ability of executing "basic stuff".

When Anno goes Godardian I can't help but appreciate it as anything but Godardian. I can't say he does Godard better, really. But Anno utilized a classical visual style that Godard rejected in principle, so it's difficult to compare the two in terms of their cinematographic styles. Anno is more adaptive, but more derivative. Godard was highly original, but more niche (then, now Godard's visual stylings are common).

Most importantly (when comparing these very similar directors) Godard has made some really bad and ridiculous shit too in his quest for experimenting.

The funny thing about Godard is that more than any other director people disagree on just what his masterpieces and "ridiculous shit" is. I think Breathless has become epitomic of his work merely because it was his first so it's what people praise so highly, though I hardly feel it's his best. And failures are a downside of being so radically experimental, but it's always hard to proclaim something a failure when it bucks traditional standards anyway.

It's somewhat corny scene when looking back to it from modern day. Mainly due to Also Spracht Zarathustra. Scene features some interesting and well done cutting but is way too long (note I have nothing against long shots) when remembering its "essence".

See, and I completely disagree it's flawed at all. In fact, I think it's one of the most singularly powerful scenes in a film full of them. How the heck is Zarathustra a hindrance? A remarkable work that was practically forgotten before Kubrick used it for his film and it became a landmark musical piece. If it's because of its overuse in works since then that's no fault of the film and merely one of perceived triteness. I also don't think it's too long. In fact, I think it's one of the better well paced scenes in the film, more so than those like Dave tracking down Frank in the pod which I DO feel is an overlong scene where not enough relevant happens (not just in terms of narrative but anything).

Too long and repetetive shot added together with riduclous, booming orchestral effect = lulz

Well, that's personal taste on your part and hardly an objective flaw. Imagine being in a theater in 1969 probably hearing that music for the first time to those images and you might can imagine a different reaction on your part.

Thank god it ends with best transition ever (the famous bone-space station shot) which saves the sequence but yeah, it is flawed scene.

That cut is overrated as well IMO. Well known, but not nearly as good as its notoriety would suggest.

but heads above Shining, FMJ, Spartacus and whatnot.

All lesser Kubrick works.

2001 (masterpiece)
A Clockwork Orange (masterpiece)
Barry Lyndon (great)
The Shining (great)
Full Metal Jacket (ok)
Eyes Wide Shut (ok)

Not calling Barry Lyndon a masterpiece is just wrong. It's probably Kubrick's best shot film and he shot 2001, afterall. Eyes Wide Shut is definitely his most misunderstood and undervalued film. It might take people a while (it did with 2001 and ACO), but I think it will eventually be regarded as, if not a masterpiece then a work damn close to it.

YES

No times infinity.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Sorry, but I find NGE to be more uneven than 2001.

Me as well, although that's not really indicative of NGE's lack of quality, it's just a natural side-effect to the improvisational style Anno utilized (to great effect) opposed to a meticulously composed one. NGE would be a lesser work likely if it didn't contain that spontaneity because that looseness fits with the direction the narrative and themes go.

I gotta say that the middle third is, at least IMHO, weaker than the first and last third/EoE;

Hmmm, I'm not so sure of that. What's surprised me about NGE is that when I first saw it it was the beginning that charmed/hooked me and the end that throttled me - the middle kinda got lost. But in recent viewings I've found more subtleties in those middle episodes that more discreet than just about anything in the series. I think there's a kind of narrative lull during that middle section, but again I think this works for rather than against the series seeing as where it goes in the 2nd half. I don't that change is as aesthetically as powerful without the contrast to that perceived lull (but, maybe that's just me).

[chee]

@Eva Yojimbo

Good points. It's not that I dispute the importance of the second third of the series to the whole, it's just that, with the exception of a few episodes, I don't find it as interesting. They're still good, just not AS good as the prologue and descent arcs.

As for 2001's bone jump-cut: Sure, it works, but there are many moments in that film I personally find much more interesting and/or mind-blowing.

@Xard:

Since Jimbo wrote down his top 10 directors, who are yours?

[Eva Yojimbo]

They're still good, just not AS good as the prologue and descent arcs.

As for 2001's bone jump-cut: Sure, it works, but there are many moments in that film I personally find much more interesting and/or mind-blowing.

On another note, I've never really liked splitting the series up into thirds - it just doesn't work IMO. I've always thought that NGE is very specifically a two part series, with ep. 14 both being a kind of epilogue to the first half and the catalyst for the change to come in the 2nd. For me that duality actually works on a number of other levels that mirrors the themes in the series quite well, but that's for another discussion.

I agree about the 2001 bone/station match cut (not a jump cut like so many call it); in all of 2001's subtleness that's one of the few really blunt moments. Though in Kubrick's defense, there is no better way to move a film across that much time smoothly, he knew that, and did the best thing he could (use editing as both a narrative and thematic tool).