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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

Incisivis wrote:But...my DVD subs use "Lillim". Maybe it was on the VHS sub only?


:checks DVD: Boober, you're right. My initial VHS jaunt through the series must be scarred upon my brain.

And, wow, what I thought was a screwup initially turned out to be right (but only in one regard, really)! When Kaworu approaches EVA-02, the subs have him saying, "Well, let's go. Come, Adam's alter ego and Lilith's minion." Everything else I've checked (including the dub for Genesis 0:8, dubs and subs for Manga's DEATH, and the Literal Translation Project) have him saying "Adam's alter ego" (or "Adam's dark shadow") and "servant of the Lilim".

However, in Japanese, he's saying, "Saa, iku yo. Oide, Adam no bunshin, soshite Lilith no shimobe." Bunshin is that annoying word that is said to mean, depending on where you look and who you ask, "clone", "facsimile", or "offspring". (In #26', Keel says that EVA-01 is a "bunshin" of Lilith.) JWPce says shimobe means "manservant, servant (of God)". Interesting.

And, Image, both the subs and dubs of DEATH say "Lilin". :dizzy:

Originally posted on: 04-Feb-2004, 16:34 GMT

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Postby Incisivis [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

Reichu wrote::checks DVD: Boober, you're right. My initial VHS jaunt through the series must be scarred upon my brain.



And, Image, both the subs and dubs of DEATH say "Lilin". :dizzy:


See, now it's things like that which made me want to read/watch/hear every English interpretation of EVA that I could get my slimy little paws on. Heh.

And I still don't know where "Lillin" came from. Sheesh.

Originally posted on: 04-Feb-2004, 18:45 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

Incisivis wrote:And I still don't know where "Lillin" came from. Sheesh.


It's technically closer to the Japanese pronunciation of "Lilim" -- "RIRIN" -- but "Lilim" is what the term is supposed to be.

Originally posted on: 05-Feb-2004, 01:45 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:Ahh, I forgot, instead of Supersolenoid, now its the Supercelluloid theory.


Image Image Image Image

Originally posted on: 08-Feb-2004, 06:59 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

This one is fun... :bump:

Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2005, 14:20 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

I would like to correct some mis-information I offered in post #10; the A2000 fansubs of Renewal are not utilizing the LTP (except in #21'-24'), the rest (01-20, and 25-26) are original translations by Hiroaki Fukada.

Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2005, 14:47 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

LTP on the NPC's? Where did they got the added scenes? I thought LTP had no scripts for those parts.

Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2005, 21:34 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:03 pm

I remember I first saw EoE in that chinese fansub version. I remember thinking "who the hell did this?" When I saw it again later with Manga the movie had a better impact.

Originally posted on: 28-Jan-2005, 23:42 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

Keisuke-kun wrote:I remember I first saw EoE in that chinese fansub version. I remember thinking "who the hell did this?" When I saw it again later with Manga the movie had a better impact.


When you think of it that way, anything that can make Manga/AWL's translation look good is a fascinating and scary thing... Image

Originally posted on: 29-Jan-2005, 00:16 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:LTP on the NPC's? Where did they got the added scenes? I thought LTP had no scripts for those parts.
As I indicated in post #10:
Ep21'-24' - L.T.P for the original scenes; Bochan_Bird for the new material.

Originally posted on: 29-Jan-2005, 02:15 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

I have some fansubs that say to have the same composition, but I found out they had a little more Bochan_bird. For example LTP on episode 24 say for ATF "light of the mind", but these say "light of the soul".

Originally posted on: 29-Jan-2005, 03:29 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:I have some fansubs that say to have the same composition, but I found out they had a little more Bochan_bird. For example LTP on episode 24 say for ATF "light of the mind", but these say "light of the soul".


I forget, AA -- was there any particular REASON why some people translate it "light of the soul"?

Originally posted on: 29-Jan-2005, 04:25 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

I did ask BB some time ago about that issue, when we were having a discussion about it here. I'll post it here now:

I asked:

ATF is the light of the soul. "Kokoro no hikari". Kokoro is not soul, wich is tamashii. I've been asking to other people with good knowledge of the Japanese language, and good knowledge of Eva, and this person said that kokoro cannot be translated as soul, because on Eva they already use a definite term for soul, they use tamashii. She said the best translation would be 'mind'.


He replied

"Cannot" is a nasty word when it comes to translating abstract concepts and words with multiple meanings between different languages. The Japanese "kokoro" can be translated as "heart", "mind", and yes, even "soul". (Or do you think that when an inanimate object like a sword is said to have a "kokoro" they mean a "mind" ;P)

In Eva, these terms are used interchangeably in many cases, and having an additional separate term for soul (tamashii) does not change this. Using a one word = one translation mindset when going back and forth on abstract concepts between Japanese and English can get you into trouble, because these words can be used with multiple and/or comprehensive meanings. In Eva, the heart, mind and soul are basically treated as the same.


I asked

I know there's still a relation between ATF and soul, because of what happens in EOE, and that looking on details, you can see that without soul there ain't no ATF, and that for sure, the mind is a subproduct, lies inside, or depends on the soul.


He replied

Is it so hard to think that "mind/intellect" can equal "spirit/soul"?
I guess sometimes westerners with (I assume) Judeo/Christian backgrounds have difficulty understanding Japanese/Eastern metaphysics, although I know that there are even some Western/Christian faiths that view spirits/souls as intellects or intelligences.


To other question I made he replied

The only point we seem to disagree on is:
"the mind is a subproduct, lies inside, or depends on the soul"

I would say that they are simply different aspects of the same thing.
This is going to get a bit esoteric, so bear with me. The average Japanese
person views the soul as something with substance/essence, but not on the
physical plane -- a non-physical substance, per se. (And if you can
rationalize that, you can also understand the sound of one hand clapping. Image)
This is why in Japanese anime and fairy tales, spirits/souls are often shown as
an ethereal flame, flickering light or other apparition. However, this is
merely a non-physical manifestation of the true essence of the soul, which is
best described as the "will" (heart/mind/intellect/intention/etc.).
Buddhism views the soul more like Western religions, but in the original
Japanese religion (Shinto = animism), it is the "will" (= ishi) that matters.
For example, when an inanimate object (tree, rock, waterfall, sword, etc.) is
said to have a "soul", this can happen in a couple of ways: 1) The object can
develop a "will" on its own, or 2) some other "will" can take up residence in
the object. For example, a sword can take on the will/intention (pattern) of
its owner (and sometimes even its victims), or upon its death the will of a
faithful dog transfers to a nearby object so that it can continue to watch over
and protect its master, and so on. In this case it is the "will" (heart/mind)
that is the initiating factor, and the soul is the manifestation or byproduct,
although this distinction is not usually made in Japan.
However, in the West, the soul is the prime aspect, and as you say "the mind is
a subproduct". This creates a problem when translating not just the words but
also the underlying meaning, so since the distinction is not so great on the
Japanese side, it is more correct to use the term "soul" in cases like Eva
because that is what the audience will understand better and which more
accurately conveys all of the nuances involved. IMO "mind" is too sterile
because it implies simple brian patterns which is against the premise of Eva.
"Heart" would be okay, I believe that "soul" is more comprehensive in terms of
equivalent English nuances.


For this question

I can't understand how, when, for example, on the episode
> Ritsuko is talking with Gendou about the dummy plug she says
> "tamashii to kokoro" cannot be digitalized. So, if they mean a
> same thing, why they do such a definitive separation?


He replied

I have not rechecked this line, but in the above context it makes no
difference. She is simply speaking in an inclusive sense. English also uses
these types of dual expressions.


To the concern that Jim Breen's didn't put kokoro as soul, in all the analogies he had there, he replied:

See above, and the WWWJDIC seems to be inferior to the Kenkyusha dictionary
(the big green one = the gold standard of J/E dictionaries) in which the
definitions and examples for "kokoro" run for almost an entire page and include
"soul", not to mention "will/intention".

Again, the only other translation I would consider using would be "heart", but
as stated above I still feel that "soul" is the better translation.


I checked my kenkyusha pocket and its true.

What do you make out of it?

Originally posted on: 30-Jan-2005, 23:43 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

A soul is a physical presence in the NGE universe; a floating red sphere. If we look at what Kaworu was implying within the context of the NGE universe, the AT Field comes from the Angel's core, and, unless they're going bousou, the Eva's comes from the person piloting her, and for lilum angels and other animals, it is generated from the mind(the wall in which we create that that makes us different from the other person). Perhaps Kaworu, to show Shinji that humans have a field as well, used the word "tamashii" as a general meaning to imply both beings having. The soul in NGE seems to also be the "heart" of a person as well as the vitals. If you look at the light blue metaphor for Yui's soul, it almost seems to beat(you can here sort of beat as well)Souls in NGE can combine, they have no AT field to seperate them, the AT field is the light that protects the soul, or "heart"(or possible even "mind") of the person. I believe dispite being very similar, almost synoymnis words, tamashii and kokoro(which does not mean the heart organ), can not always be used interchangeably, it depends on the context. Based on what I said above, I believe the word can be used interchangeably in this case. I also believe Kaworu was refering to actual, physical red souls, which contains the "heart", or "mind" of a person, plant, Eva, Angel, etc.(Though this might be after death in which the "mind" of a person is transfered from the brain to the soul, after it floats from the fully decomposed body-this is makes the most sense to me, IMO. In conclusion, I believe the best translation is "light of the soul", though I don't think of it as truly wrong to put "heart", or "mind".

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 02:13 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

You know, in spite of all that, I still like my silly idea of tamashii and kokoro being treated as separate but related concepts in NGE... The soul as the basic unit, and the heart/mind as the stuff that the soul acquires through the process of living, which it uses to define its individuality. I think I only formulated this idea as a result of looking at the context in which each term was used, without bird's knowledge of the Japanese language.

He knows better that us... right? ;;p

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 02:34 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:04 pm

I'm very torn; I like both my idea, but Reichu's makes sense too....Image

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 02:40 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:05 pm

I hope BB knows better. But one thing he said makes a lot of sense: our original concept of soul is totally different from Japanese one, or so it seems. WE might not know in detail, but we generally assume a soul as being the origin, and the mind and intellect as being souls potences. That's pure medieval christian phylosophy. St. Thomas in general. For what he says, soul is a different concept in Japanese, as just a part of a wider group, which also has mind and intellect, and all being different aspects of another thing, which seems to be will. It's hard for me to understand as I was brain-sodomized by christian phylosophy, but I guess it does make sense in Eva.

Nevertheless, there is a dialogue in Eva that seems to confirm it all. In episode 25

Image

Rei 1 starts asking about a false "kokoro". And then she says Rei has a false "tamashii", and then talks about having a false and dark "kokoro", and then the other Rei speaking about having her "kokoro" formed by interaction. They're being put more or less on equal terms, right?

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 03:31 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:05 pm

Shin-Seiki: Any chance of fixing the linkies in your early posts? If it's not too much trouble, of course.

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 12:36 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:05 pm

Soluzar wrote:Shin-Seiki: Any chance of fixing the linkies in your early posts? If it's not too much trouble, of course.
No problemo... Image

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 14:08 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:05 pm

Thank you, some of those fan-sub translations are so funny. I really pity the otaku who downloaded that Psychlo-Anime translation. I mean, EoE is hard enough to understand without having that to contend with. Image

Originally posted on: 31-Jan-2005, 14:28 GMT


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