Reconsidering the NGE2 PS(2/P) Game's Canonicity

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Reconsidering the NGE2 PS(2/P) Game's Canonicity

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:40 pm

The CI is currently considered very important for figuring things out, as it apparently came directly from Hideaki Anno, who is best known as the voice of Miyu-Miyu in FLCL.

I had previously misunderstood how the CI is acquired in the game. I thought that, depending on how well you did in a certain stage, you got more or less information about a certain thing. However, playing the game myself, I have found this is not the case. You discover more information by hacking into NERV's database. Thus, this information is directly part of the game.

Consequently, I must ask why information presented in the game outside of the CI is not considered applicable to the show. Various things could be quite helpful to figuring out aspects of the anime, and the game is quite faithful to it. I'd hazard to say that Anno directly supervised and suggested more to the game than just the CI.

Some things that would certainly apply are:

-We actually see who shoots Kaji: two unnamed agents. This is completely consistent to Anno's statements, and I'm guessing he wanted that element in there for that purpose.

-Rei tells Shinji that the sea of LCL they're frakking in is within the S2 Engine. That doesn't seem like something that would just be made up without Anno's input.

-Kaworu definitely says "Kore wa Adam. Iie... kore wa Lilith?!". If this was supervised by Anno, this definitely means that Kaworu mistook Lilith for vis own body.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that the reason that it isn't explained whose soul is in Unit 00 is because the CI is supposed to apply to both the anime and the game, and they contadict each other in this regard. In the anime, Rei is emotionless and such (or at least apparently so) until Unit 00 blows up because her soul is incomplete. However, in the game, Rei can be way more emotional than in the show, implying that isn't the case. This is just a guess on my part.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:50 pm

You hack into computers to get it, but it's not REALLY part of the game, is it? They're data files directly applicable to the show that the player (who is more than likely an NGE nerd) can view. The game itself is an NGE universe simulator, and since one is playing through variable scenarios drawn up for the game, what occurs within its gameplay cannot be directly applied to the show.

A line has to be drawn somewhere.

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:13 pm

Reichu wrote:You hack into computers to get it, but it's not REALLY part of the game, is it? They're data files directly applicable to the show that the player (who is more than likely an NGE nerd) can view.
Many of the scenarios require you to hack to be completed. At least one of them requires you to get all the information to win.

Certainly a line must be drawn. Of course things such as PenPen wanting a robot dog and Kaworu being able to rid himself of his Tabris powers were created specifically for the game. However, I find it highly likely that much of what was put into the game was intended to be applicable to the show, and I see no evidence otherwise.
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Postby Sachi » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:24 pm

I like in that whole application of genius and your amazing analysis, that I found a typo.
they contadict each other in this regard.

Can you find it?

Does this mean that Unit-00's souls isn't Liliths? We can't just go back to saying that it was Naoko Akagi.
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Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:32 pm

NAveryW wrote:Many of the scenarios require you to hack to be completed. At least one of them requires you to get all the information to win.

That's not quite what I was driving at. The information might be acquired through action in the gameplay itself, but taken alone (which isn't difficult to do) it's basically omake.

However, I find it highly likely that much of what was put into the game was intended to be applicable to the show, and I see no evidence otherwise.

But then you have to pick and choose. How many of us are going to (or even have the capacity to) play through the game and all of its scenarios in order to make our own judgments on what might be applicable and what shouldn't be? Would anyone be willing to go through and document/translate the entire game to eliminate this kind of problem? Scenarios in a simulation game are not convenient things to incorporate into Tiers of Canonicity. It's a giant can of worms that may as well be left alone.

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Postby NAveryW » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:53 pm

My point is that, if there's something that is unclear only using the show and the CI, it could be helpful to also use information from the rest of the game. For example, if we do so, we can tell for a fact that Kaworu definitely thought Lilith was Adam.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:09 pm

It should be noted, the other way to get CI information is by talking with other characters. Namely, other people that work for NERV (The other Pilots, Misato, Kaji, Ritsuko, Gendou, etc, etc).


And I actually don't see why Kaworu having the exact same line ve had in the series would mean ve mistook Lilith for Adam, but that's another issue, now ain't it? :tongue:

In regards to translation of the game, gameplay itself is FAR too open-ended to even bother translating it. For instance, I played as Shinji from one saved game, died in battle, and when I reloaded from the exact same saved game, I ended up getting a completely different outcome in the game the 2nd time through! O_o (Events that happened, a character showing up to save Shinji from something, etc)

Because of the open-ended...ness, that's exactly why Lleonard Pler wrote his PSP version FAQ the way he did. (And why Fading and I are going to write our FAQ for the PS2 version in a similar way: listing the possible various commands/actions for things.)
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed May 06, 2009 7:30 pm

Bumping a very old topic, wheeee... (I must have wrote that ancient last post before getting the PSP port.)

A long, long time ago, NAveryW wrote:-Rei tells Shinji that the sea of LCL they're frakking in is within the S2 Engine. That doesn't seem like something that would just be made up without Anno's input.


Rei only says to Shinji that the LCL Sea is the S2 Engine (or some such thing) during the 3 out of the 5 Bad Ends: if Seele gets their version of Instrumentality, an Angel merges with Lilith, or Lilith and Adam cause Instrumentality for their own reasons.

With Gendo's end, the scene shifts from GNR tanging people to Gendo and Yui on a beach (so no words about S2 Engines there), and the EoE ending for Shinji's first scenario just uses the script from the movie so there isn't any mention of that there.

that the reason that it isn't explained whose soul is in Unit 00 is because the CI


I recently stated in another thread that in the PSP port during the Leliel battle, just before the Eva bursts out from the Angel, the soul of the Eva contacts the pilot. In Shinji, Asuka and Toji's case, it's their mothers. In Kaworu's case (he's able to synch with Eva-04 and becomes its pilot), he simply muses about becoming Adam or some such thing. With Rei, she sees the floating head of doom identified as ???? (Lilith, the spirit...thing...Kaworu sees in his Good End, and I think something else has the ???? identification in the game too), and Rei1 says to her something about Adam.

Reichu wrote:Scenarios in a simulation game are not convenient things to incorporate into Tiers of Canonicity. It's a giant can of worms that may as well be left alone.


I agree with this, but I do at least think the game has some merit since (according to a Shin-seiki post somewhere) Anno worked on the events engine for the game, not just the CI.

In terms of translating, I believe somebody I know would at least screencap things from the PS2 port (maybe PSP port later on?), so perhaps something (eg, scenes from the characters' endings) from that could be translated depending on what'd be requested...
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Postby Reichu » Thu May 07, 2009 3:12 am

I'll post more recent sentiments I voiced in another thread, for the lulz.

The event system of NGE2 is a bit harder to judge [in terms of canonicity] -- Anno worked on it, so I'm sure there is stuff of value to be extracted from it, but it's much less "concrete" than a bunch of blurbs of text. Much more interpretation is involved to discern what might be relevant, in terms of the original show. Plus, unlike the CI, the events in NGE2 have never been gathered together, translated, and made readily available to the community -- keeping a lot of it "hearsay" that can't be referenced on the fly. Obviously not an optimal situation, but until we start seeing properly-done digital recordings / screen captures of all this stuff, and translations start going up...


SSD wrote:I agree with this, but I do at least think the game has some merit since (according to a Shin-seiki post somewhere) Anno worked on the events engine for the game, not just the CI.

I don't know where the myth that Anno just worked on the CI or something came from. I actually posted this bit a while back; I'm surprised it didn't become a routine copypasta.

Newtype USA Jan 2004 wrote:To solve the mysteries you must understand the world of Eva itself

The Eva 2 game draws you into the world of Eva once again. During production, the developers did their best to understand everything about Eva, and tried to incorporate what they learned into the game. Without their efforts, it would've been impossible to re-create the world of Eva. Hiroshi Shibamura of Alfa System prepared a thick questionnaire and conducted an interview with Hideaki Anno, the director of both the TV series and the films, that lasted more than ten hours. The interview included questions such as, "What do you think about each of the Gundam series?" (to help program the "Anno AI" in the game) and "What was the first Angel?" (to further understand the story behind Eva). Director Anno and his staff answered the questions frankly, and the game reflects that.

However, it won't be easy to find answers. The quickest way to gather clues is to play the game repeatedly in as many different roles as possible. There are some deceptive characters, such as Gendou (you can never tell whether he's telling the truth). And after all of the hard work, much of the information obtained may turn out to be contradictory or just plain false. That is because a correct answer from the standpoint of one particular character isn't necessarily correct from the standpoint of another. On the other hand, mystery-solving is only a part of it. Instead of trying so hard to find the right answers, just keep playing around in the puzzling world of Eva to discover clues about the "Official Answer," which GAINAX is said to have presented in the game.


One could probably find out more specifics on Anno et al.'s involvement by poking around on the Japanese Interbutts. Sigh, so much to do...

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:21 am

I've actually started perusing the non-CI contents of the game myself, and, I must say, there is some very interesting stuff. Lots more translating to do.

I don't know how many of you Discussion people would normally check the NGE2 thread in "Everything Else", so I'm cross-posting here with notification that I've translated a scene that sheds additional light on the First Ancestral Race and Seeds of Life. You may be surprised.

http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=341191#341191

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Re: Reconsidering the PS(2/P) Game's Canonicity

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Postby JoeD80 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:39 pm

NAveryW wrote:Furthermore, I have a feeling that the reason that it isn't explained whose soul is in Unit 00 is because the CI is supposed to apply to both the anime and the game, and they contadict each other in this regard.

According to Japanese wikipedia, it seems that somewhere in the game it says Rei's 7 months synchronization time was because there is no soul in the core of Unit 00. The prototype was prone to out of control events because of this. This seems consistent with the anime to me, since Kaworu was able to control Unit 02 because the soul was hiding itself. Rei should be able to do the same things that Kaworu does like controlling a soulless Eva. So Rei is kind of like the core of Unit 00 in this way.

Reichu wrote:Would anyone be willing to go through and document/translate the entire game to eliminate this kind of problem? Scenarios in a simulation game are not convenient things to incorporate into Tiers of Canonicity. It's a giant can of worms that may as well be left alone.

Yes, there are obsessed people (-> me) who would be willing to do such a thing. Also, I believe Gainax's view at the time was this game was to answer all the questions. They made a big deal about this game at the same time that the Renewal Box Set was released.

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Postby NAveryW » Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:58 pm

Reichu wrote:A line has to be drawn somewhere.
So has this line been removed now, placed in a slightly different location, or what? I still stand by everything I've expressed in this thread.
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Re: Reconsidering the PS(2/P) Game's Canonicity

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:08 pm

JoeD80 wrote:According to Japanese wikipedia, it seems that somewhere in the game it says Rei's 7 months synchronization time was because there is no soul in the core of Unit 00. The prototype was prone to out of control events because of this. This seems consistent with the anime to me, since Kaworu was able to control Unit 02 because the soul was hiding itself. Rei should be able to do the same things that Kaworu does like controlling a soulless Eva. So Rei is kind of like the core of Unit 00 in this way.


It makes sense that Kaworu can do that, though, because Eva is his body to start with (or attempts to copy it, but they're derived from him.) Unit 00, though, is not derived from Lilith. It's remarkable that it's even possible for Rei to pilot an Adam-based Eva, and presumably it only works because the soul in it is so familiar to her.

Besides, the anime flat-out states that part of Rei's soul is inside Unit 00: "the me within Eva."
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:16 pm

For what it's worth, my own (long standing) opinion on NGE2 is that it and everything in it lie firmly in Third Tier Canon, the Classified Information files included—especially the CI files in fact.

The standard rationale for sometimes including the CI as being in second tier canon is that Anno was interviewed by the creators during the game's development. Now, while this is true, what exactly Anno ever said to them or how they incorporated these interview into the game is unknown. Moreover, such interviews with or questions to people at Gainax presumably occurred during the development of other strictly Third Tier canon materials, so I don't see why NGE2 is given so much leeway in this regard.

In short, if there is information in the game which does not contradict any second or third tier canon materials, then it could be considered canonical. Could be. Third Tier sources are not as reliable as others and I'm sure there is indeed information of dubious quality in NGE2 which should not be immediately accepted.

Now having said all that, I'm sure there is information in the game which, in the absence of other materials, may stand alone as the only "official" source of material on certain issues. I'm actually very curious as to whether the game features any maps or diagrams of the Geofront, Tokyo-3 or locales therein. Information like this would be something relatively minor which can be easily agreed on.
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Re: Reconsidering the PS(2/P) Game's Canonicity

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:34 pm

JoeD80 wrote:According to Japanese wikipedia, it seems that somewhere in the game it says Rei's 7 months synchronization time was because there is no soul in the core of Unit 00. The prototype was prone to out of control events because of this.

Could you point us to the actual quote? I recall something vaguely similar in the CI, but it only says something about the core being poorly constructed.

Yes, there are obsessed people (-> me) who would be willing to do such a thing.

Can you, and would you?

OMF wrote:Moreover, such interviews with or questions to people at Gainax presumably occurred during the development of other strictly Third Tier canon materials, so I don't see why NGE2 is given so much leeway in this regard.

If those interviews did happen, they weren't (to my knowledge) publicized. Anno is on record as a consultant here. He participated, and it shows. The elaboration upon and expansion of the mythos is pretty incredible. When the game designers have the original creator at their disposal, they don't need to throw their own fanfiction at us (at least, not where it really matters).

NAveryW wrote:So has this line been removed now, placed in a slightly different location, or what?

I've been revising my opinion a bit...

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Postby chaosakita » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:58 pm

What's so bad about the CI? Is there anything in there that contradicts what we've seen in the show? I suppose it can't be used as absolute proof, but some things in there are the only word on the subject from anyone remotely official.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:37 pm

chaosakita wrote:What's so bad about the CI? Is there anything in there that contradicts what we've seen in the show?
I've always had a problem with materials external to a work of art, provided by the artists, that are supposed to answer the questions people had about it. If they wanted it known, they should've put it in the work, or made some kind of canonical sequel. Not stuff them in a video game or published a "Philosophy of Time Travel" (Donnie Darko) or tell us that Dumbledore is gay.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:12 pm

chaosakita wrote:What's so bad about the CI?

Note that what's under consideration are not only the CI files within the game, but the game in general. The CI were the most convenient and intuitive item to translate first, due to their ability to stand alone. However, in focusing on the CI all these years, it's been easy to overlook the fact that there's additional information scattered throughout the rest of the game.

As demonstrated by the scene I recently translated (involving Kaworu's conversation with another Seed), even information presented in the game itself can supplement what we know in a very straightforward way. Examples of info-dumping that would resolve various questions appear to be all over. As a random example, in a Rei scenario I hope to tackle soon, Lilith tells Rei to give her the Fruit of Life (or some such), which implies (A) Lilith does not have the Fruit of Life (this debate still has to happen from time to time...), and (B) some form of consciousness has remained inside Lilith all along. [But wait for the full translation before debating. Context might be important...] This is only the tip of the iceberg.

Of course, we wouldn't simply have common disputes settled; the new material (such as alternate depictions of Third Impact) would give us new things to talk about, and alternate ways of looking at the same old.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I've always had a problem with materials external to a work of art, provided by the artists, that are supposed to answer the questions people had about it.

I suspect that this will always be an irrevocable conflict between those who find both extracanonical scripture and apocrypha enriching, and those who feel that if it's not in The Book it should not be considered.

We need to be able to coexist peacefully. Obviously on an Eva forum all those extra goodies cannot be ignored, so for the sake of community and effective communication the artsy fundamentalists lose out. The tier ranking system is here to stay.

This is where it might be useful to partition things in your head: seek an answer that's "right" in the community setting, and seek one that's "right" for you -- analogous to how some scientists can stick to the rules in their professional work, but practice Potatoism in their off time. Alternatively, you could just ignore everyone and everything contributing to the decadence of philosophical attitudes towards artistic works.

Additionally, all that filthy not-in-the-work-as-published smut is so profuse it probably corrupts your thinking far more than you might care to admit. :nyao: And likewise for many other naysayers. For another religious analogy (since they're so colorful), think of the stereotyped Christian who claims to follow the Bible and nothing else, but is in fact, and perhaps completely unknowingly, instilled with a plethora of beliefs completely non-Biblical in origin (some even stemming from polytheistic traditions). One of the dangers of fundamentalism is that, well, it's really, really hard to actually follow through with it.
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Postby NAveryW » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:21 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
chaosakita wrote:What's so bad about the CI? Is there anything in there that contradicts what we've seen in the show?
I've always had a problem with materials external to a work of art, provided by the artists, that are supposed to answer the questions people had about it. If they wanted it known, they should've put it in the work, or made some kind of canonical sequel. Not stuff them in a video game or published a "Philosophy of Time Travel" (Donnie Darko) or tell us that Dumbledore is gay.
Why must sequels or supplemental materials exist in the same medium as their root work?
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:21 pm

There's this show called Neon Genesis Evangelion that contains pretty much everything you need to know about Neon Genesis Evangelion.

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