Misato & Shinji

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Misato & Shinji

Postby DatDude » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 pm

continued from an unrealted thread that got of course.

Their several moment in eva were Misato come on to Shinji. Their not as pronounced in the series but EoE makes it clear.

Do you think Misato was a pedophile? or do you think she was only trying to comfort him and did know any other way to express affection?


Reichu wrote:Dude, if you're not a pedophile you don't stick your tongue down a kid's throat and say, "That was an adult kiss. We'll do the rest when you get back."


If she was a pedophile she would have been trying to get in Shinji's pants more often. Look at when she really makes the " offer " clear its only when Shinji's hurting and she's trying to comfort him.


Reichu wrote:And for those who are paying attention, Misato is putting the moves on Shinji as soon as they start living together.


I really didn't see her trying anything until later and most of the time I think she was just playing around. Their are time I do admit were shes really makeing the " offer "know but again I only see it when she's trying to comfort the poor kid.

I really do think that Misato didn't know what to do with Shinji or Asuka in the long run. In the beginning yes she's just useing the poor kid/s, but I think that for Shinji at least she really did care for him. If she didn't I don't think she'd have cryed the way she did when everyone though he died in unit-1.

Eveny character in eva has problems most of them don't know how to relate or interact on any meaningful level with eachother or anyone for that matter. Misato acts all flerty and air headed, and she's not ubove using people. I think that the only person she ever was really close to in her life was Kaji and the only way she knew to express affection was sexualy.

Im not saying she did not have problems all the characters in the show do. What I am saying is that their are deeper reason for what she did and tryed to do. Not that she looked to pick up guys infront of highschools.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:09 pm

the_seventh_child wrote:i still can see Misato only as a mother figure or a guardian to Shinji..
i can't accept that she may wanted to have sex with him...
seventh_child, here's an on-topic post of mine from AN; that Misato was coming on to Shinji in that scene in #23 is, IMO, obvious beyond arguing, especially when you take into consideration how the incident is referenced in Misato's Complementation in #25:
Shin-seiki wrote: Here a transcript of the scene in question, off the new and improved Sub script for #23' on the Resurrection DVD:

Misato:
Shini, I'm coming in.

Shinji:
Misato, the tears won't come.
I feel sad, but the tears just won't come.

Misato:
Shinji, this is about all I can do for you right now.

Shinji:
Stop it!
Stop it, Misato.

Misato:
I'm sorry.

Misato (MONO):
But he must be feeling lonely...
Is he afraid of women?
No, he's afraid of being intimate with people.

Misato:
Pen Pen, come here.

Misato (MONO):
I see, it doesn't matter who.
I am the one who is lonely.

If you watch the scene in Japanese, it is pretty plain what Misato was up to, based on Shinji's tone and demeanor, and Misato's chagrin as she beats a very hasty retreat from the room. (If her intentions were innocent, what has she got to be sorry about?!)
Plus:

Misato (MONO):
But he must be feeling lonely...
Is he afraid of women?
No, he's afraid of being intimate with people
.

I mean, come on! Does she need to spell it out any plainer than that?!

That Shinji was thoroughly freaked out by Misato's coming on to him is a significant, tho unstated, factor in his brief, intense relationship with Kaworu:

Shinji:
Well, the usual test was over and,
I was going to have a shower before I went home.
But, I don't want to go home these days.

And, of course, Misato herself realizes that she really blew it (i.e. violated the acceptable boundaries of her relationship with Shinji):

Misato:
Shinji-kun has not returned.
I am disqualified as his guardian.

But even if you fail to pick up on it on the basis of all that, it becomes perfectly obvious what she was up to, by the way the scene is referenced in #25:

(replaying the #23 scene)
Shinji:
Stop it, Misato!
-----
Misato:
Sometimes, I lose all hope for myself!
I hate it!

Maya:
Filth, you're so dirty.

Ritsuko:
You're pathetic.

Asuka:
Disgusting! You're just foul!
That's what you call a mature relationship?!
You make me puke!

Finally I should point out (again!) that the Newtype Filmbook (written in consultation with GAINAX) for #23 states flat out that Misato was offering her body to Shinji in that scene.

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:23 pm

There are two things that Misato's "affections" towards Shinji can be attributed to. First off, most of the time when she appears to come on to Shinji is when she's drunk on beer. Secondly, it can be argued that Misato has a very awkward and somewhat sexualized way of showing affection.

The only thing that really vindicates people's beliefs that Misato is a pedaphile is the scene in End of Eva where she kisses Shinji. Please keep in mind that she had just been shot, and a minute or two afterwards she collapses, and asks her pet penguin (who isn't even there no less) as to whether she should have changed the drapes in her apartment. Suffice to see that she wasn't in the best frame of mind when she frenched Shinji. Hell, she even leaves blood in his mouth.

I think the "Misato wants to seX0r Shinji!" thing is WAY too overplayed.
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Postby DatDude » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:24 pm

DatDude wrote:Do you think Misato was a pedophile? or do you think she was only trying to comfort him and did know any other way to express affection?


>ahem<Shin-seiki

edit I with you on this one Mr. Monkey
Last edited by DatDude on Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby the_seventh_child » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:25 pm

well Shin-Seiki maybe you have a point..Misato was a little addicted to sex as it seems..maybe she tried with Shinji..
but i just want to believe that she tried to comfort him..to show him she cared for him..
i'm wondering if this is true why did Anno put that scene in #23?
and that scene in #25 you're reffering to Shin-Seiki where is it exactly?i may take a look at it again..
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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:32 pm

the_seventh_child wrote:well guys maybe you have a point..Misato was a little addicted to sex as it seems..maybe she tried with Shinji..
but i just want to believe that she tried to comfort him..to show him she cared for him..
Well, yes, she was trying to comfort him, but Misato, like everyone else in NGE, is pretty messed up psychologically, so affection, concern, and her own desperate loneliness led her to do something "out of line", which she immediately regreted...
i'm wondering if this is true why did Anno put that scene?
and that scene in #25 where is it exactly?i may take a look at it again..
In "The Case of Misato Katsuragi"; around halfway thru the second half of #25.

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Postby DatDude » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:39 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Well, yes, she was trying to comfort him, but Misato, like everyone else in NGE, is pretty messed up psychologically, so affection, concern, and her own desparate loneliness led her to do something "out of line", which she immediately regreted...


Kind of like what Shinji did to Asuka in EoE hu? Desparate loneliness lead him to vent >ahem< certian feelings in a way he shouldn't have and we all know it made him feel " so fucked up".
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Postby the_seventh_child » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:51 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Well, yes, she was trying to comfort him, but Misato, like everyone else in NGE, is pretty messed up psychologically, so affection, concern, and her own desperate loneliness led her to do something "out of line", which she immediately regreted...



that makes sense..maybe affected by Kaji's death she didn't know what else to do..


Shin-seiki wrote:In "The Case of Misato Katsuragi"; around halfway thru the second half of #25.

if this is on series unfortunately i can't see it-don't own the 25-26 episodes only EoE-..but if occurs whatever you say this converstion indicates that maybe Misato wanted more from Shinji in that scene on #23 than comforting him..
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Postby the-artist-known-as-chris » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:57 pm

It's the age barrier that is the main problem, if Shinji was say, 19, and everything else in the series was the same. Would people then have any quams in thinking Misato loved Shinji in a deeper way then just a gaurdian?

At present I still find it very believible. Misato sees a lot of herself in Shinji, so it draws her to want to be close to him.

I don't think Misato's a pedophile, it's just that Shinji is more mature beyond his age, it's more of being in love with his soul. You don't see Misato jumping Kensuke or Toji now do you?

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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:06 pm

the-artist-known-as-chris wrote:It's the age barrier that is the main problem, if Shinji was say, 19, and everything else in the series was the same. Would people then have any quams in thinking Misato loved Shinji in a deeper way then just a gaurdian?
Yeah, in the Rah-Xephon Movie, Haruka/Misato does the Wild Thing with Ayato/Shinji, and it's no big deal (as far as his age, that is...)

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:02 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:The only thing that really vindicates people's beliefs that Misato is a pedaphile is the scene in End of Eva where she kisses Shinji. Please keep in mind that she had just been shot…


And having failed to motivate the inert lump she'd been dragging around up to that point by either appeal to reason or to emotions, knowing she was likely to be mortally wounded, what else to do? Reckoning if it was young, male, intact, and had a pulse, that sex might be a motivating factor would be an entirely reasonable last ditch measure - even if it was a promise made with the expectation of not being around to have to fulfill it.

I take it as a measure of quite how far gone Ikari-kun was by that stage that it didn't work.


The Eva Monkey wrote:I think the "Misato wants to seX0r Shinji!" thing is WAY too overplayed.


Agreed
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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:I think the "Misato wants to seX0r Shinji!" thing is WAY too overplayed.


Agreed
I agree too, to the extent that it comes up only twice; once in a moment of weakness (#23), and the second time, as a desperate ploy to get Shinji to "snap out of it" in a situation where the fate of the world hung in the balance (but we all know how that turned out; thanx for nothing, Shinji!). On the other hand, it is a fact that this is a plot element that was crucial to the story as a whole, and one that Anno set us up for, right from the get-go (the picture Misato used to lure Shinji in #01: "Look at this!" [arrow points at cleavage], and, of course, in #02, "It's not like I'm going to 'put the moves' on a kid!" [if you can't tell that that is an indication that she will end up 'putting the moves' on him before it's all over, you need to acquaint yourself with the concept of Ironic Foreshadowing)

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:33 pm

To quote The Simpsons.... "When are they going to get to the fireworks factory?!".

Yeah, if the mention it, it has to happen later. Typically thats how it works in cinema. However, its Eva, and Eva has quite a few plot holes and unanswered question.

There is one line Misato delivers that MAY actually have some bearing. I'm not sure if its been applied to this.

Misato says (in ep 2) "I was just thinking of Shinji as a tool. I'm as shameless as Ritsuko." With this statement she is referring to Ritsuko's affair with Gendo. So the question is, if Ritsuko uses Gendo for sex, what does Misato use Shinji for? Affection, love, companionship? However there is another exchange which indicates that it is more of a platonic/family sense.

Ritsuko: What's wrong, you're nice synthetic family is falling apart?
Misato: I don't have to take that from someone who tries to fill the holes in her own empty life with a bunch of cats.

Again, Misato compares herself to Ritsuko. Only this time its referring to loneliness.

In the manga, Misato tells Shinji that the reason why she took him in was the same for why she took in Pen Pen. She was lonely, and she thought it would be nice if there was someone there when she went home.

I don't think her remarks about making passes at him were anything more than a bad joke. And I don't think the photo was anything more than fan service to the viewers. When it comes to her putting her hand on Shinji's in ep 23, I think its more her trying to perform some sort of motherly affection rather than some sexualized one. She did feel very sorry afterwards, and it was because she had invaded his space, trying to be something he's not. If I were her, I imagine I would want to hold him and comfort him. She lost Kaji, and he lost Rei. They were in the same position, and what better way to cope than to be with someone in the same position as you?

But again, she says "Anything's better than being lonely, and I'm the one who's lonely". She's not going after him for sex. She's got Kaji for that, and she does love Kaji, in my mind, and if she has any sense of monogomy, she wouldn't go after a 14 year old boy.
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Postby the-artist-known-as-chris » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:22 pm

Like you said,this is eva, and things don't happen the way it would. (or should?)

Misato loves Kaji, we know this, which also shows she is not a pedophile. She's attracted to men. :lol:

If you just look past the age with Shinji, it's not about pedophilea, it's about love, and just beacuse Misato loves Kaij, doesint mean she doesint also love Shinji, you can love more than one person at a time.

In just what compassity does she love Shinji? Well, that's still debated to this day, Eva rules don't it? I love controversy. 8)

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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:01 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:Misato says (in ep 2) "I was just thinking of Shinji as a tool. I'm as shameless as Ritsuko." With this statement she is referring to Ritsuko's affair with Gendo.


Is that what she's really talking about there? Why the hell haven't you submitted comments for episodes #01 and #02 yet???

When it comes to her putting her hand on Shinji's in ep 23, I think its more her trying to perform some sort of motherly affection rather than some sexualized one.


Watch episode #25 again. Please.

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Postby the-artist-known-as-chris » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:09 am

Reichu wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:Misato says (in ep 2) "I was just thinking of Shinji as a tool. I'm as shameless as Ritsuko." With this statement she is referring to Ritsuko's affair with Gendo.


Is that what she's really talking about there? Why the hell haven't you submitted comments for episodes #01 and #02 yet???



I figured Misato ment a tool in which to defeat the angels, but wow the Ritusko affair reference just adds more supporting evidence.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:37 am

the-artist-known-as-chris wrote:I figured Misato ment a tool in which to defeat the angels, but wow the Ritusko affair reference just adds more supporting evidence.


I think I'd assumed something similar... The tool by which to attain her vendetta. This fits in with the rest of what she's saying at this point in #02, but it doesn't explain how she's as "bad as Ritsuko"...

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Postby Shin-seiki » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:11 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:To quote The Simpsons.... "When are they going to get to the fireworks factory?!".

Yeah, if the mention it, it has to happen later. Typically thats how it works in cinema. However, its Eva, and Eva has quite a few plot holes and unanswered question.
Umm... Are you serious? I'm astounded at how you seem to be blythely dismissing the idea that Anno would resort to telegraphing plot developements, when, in fact, this sort of set-up/pay-off modality is a fundamental element of his narrative technique in NGE, which permeates and weaves together the entire series from beginning to end. Indeed, by the time we get to EoE, much, if not most, of what we see going on has been presaged one way or another by what came before in the series (or earlier in the movie). This applies particularly to the new material added in the New Production Cut; almost every element of which serves as a 'set-up' for a specific corresponding 'pay-off' scene in EoE (that is, in fact, the whole point of the DC).
Secondly, it's not like Misato's little self-implicating 'joke' is the only time that Anno utilizes the 'Ironic Foreshadowing' trick; there are plentiful other examples, such as Toji saying "I guess only weirdos get to be Eva pilots" . EoE is a parade of one brutally ironic pay-off after another...

There is one line Misato delivers that MAY actually have some bearing. I'm not sure if its been applied to this.

Misato says (in ep 2) "I was just thinking of Shinji as a tool. I'm as shameless as Ritsuko." With this statement she is referring to Ritsuko's affair with Gendo.
Like Reichu says, are you sure that wat she's referring to here? While I'm sure that Gendo and Ritsuko are an item right from the get-go in the series (in fact, I'm convinced they've been lovers at least from the time she was appointed head of Project E, if not before). But is their affair supposed to be an open secret in NERV? Would Misato, who, after all, just arrived in Tokyo 3 a few days earlier, be aware of it?
And I don't think the photo was anything more than fan service to the viewers.
If it was only intended as fan-sevice, then I guess that makes Shinji a fan: that picture is what actually persuaded him to come to Tokyo 3 (note how he tore Gendo's letter to shreds, and then had to tape it back together...)
Last edited by Shin-seiki on Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:04 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Umm... Are you serious? I'm astounded at how you seem to be blythely dismissing the idea that Anno would resort to telegraphing plot developements, when, in fact, this sort of set-up/pay-off modality is his fundamental narrative technique in NGE, which permeates and weaves together the entire series from beginning to end.

There are fundamental differences between Japanese and American cinema in terms of cohesive plot/narrative/endings. We as Americans are used to much more cohesive plots, and I think many people expect that of anime. This is a false expectation. In fact, people expect it so much that they concoct scenarios to lend cohesiveness to that which does not.

Eva leaves a lot of loose threads. And in that respect, (in my opinion) every single visual indicator shouldn't be interpretted in some grand intellectual scheme. ESPECIALLY when the story was only outlined prior to production. The story was storyboarded and finalized on the fly. If it were entirely planned out in advance, I would lend Anno a lot more credit on this subject. However, sometimes a window is just a window, not some grand metaphor for life and existance.

I wish people would stop treating Eva like some thorough and well thought out masterpiece.

Want an example? I asked Takeshi Honda what working under Anno was like at Katsucon 2004. He said it was very stressful because Anno made numerous last minute changes. For example, episode 24 was supposed to be about Shinji confronting Yui's presence in the Eva, not his relationship with Kaworu Nagisa.

In my opinion, people shouldn't assume that everything means something.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:29 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:Want an example? I asked Takeshi Honda what working under Anno was like at Katsucon 2004. He said it was very stressful because Anno made numerous last minute changes. For example, episode 24 was supposed to be about Shinji confronting Yui's presence in the Eva, not his relationship with Kaworu Nagisa.
I'm a little puzzled how that would work: Kaworu's eventual presence in the story is advertized in the OP; by #24, we're sort of running out of time to fit him in, especially since there's the whole Dead Sea Scrolls/17 Angels scenario to be disposed of before SEELE's "Promised Day" can occur.
I'm pretty sure that the idea that #25-26 would deal with 3I/Instrumentality was anticipated from the beginning too. And hadn't Shinji already confronted Yui's presence in EVA-01 in #16 and #20...? In any case, the story in #21-24 unfolds in a very programmatic fashion, with lots of necessary plot to squeeze in: I find the idea that Anno was still "making it up as he went along" by that point in the series' production to be more than just a little hard to credit.


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