The Two Liliths (In Actual Apocrypha)

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition").
The third installment debuted in Japan on November 17, 2012.

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The Two Liliths (In Actual Apocrypha)

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Postby NAveryW » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:31 pm

Yes, so the fact that there are two beings in Rebuild that appear to be Lilith probably isn't related to this, but I thought I'd mention it anyway on the off-chance that it is relevant. At the least this ties back into the "another progenitor" thing.

Wikipedia wrote:A passage in the 13th century document called the Treatise on the Left Emanation says that there are two Liliths, the lesser being married to the great demon Asmodeus.

In answer to your question concerning Lilith, I shall explain to you the essence of the matter. Concerning this point there is a received tradition from the ancient Sages who made use of the Secret Knowledge of the Lesser Palaces, which is the manipulation of demons and a ladder by which one ascends to the prophetic levels. In this tradition, it is made clear that Samael and Lilith were born as one, similar to the form of Adam and Eve who were also born as one, reflecting what is above. This is the account of Lilith which was received by the Sages in the Secret Knowledge of the Palaces. The Matron Lilith is the mate of Samael. Both of them were born at the same hour in the image of Adam and Eve, intertwined in each other. Asmodeus the great king of the demons has as a mate the Lesser (younger) Lilith, daughter of the king whose name is Qafsefoni. The name of his mate is Mehetabel daughter of Matred, and their daughter is Lilith.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:29 pm

I dumped that because the text clearly said that Lilith the Lesser was the daughter of a king and not a proper Angel/Demon!
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Postby NAveryW » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:13 pm

And "oral stage" is supposed to refer to the theoretical psychosexual stage during infancy when a child receives erotic pleasure through the mouth, but that didn't stop NGE from using it as the title of a recap episode containing no babies.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:21 pm

Baka! What did you have to say about the image of baby Shinji sucking from Yui? Wait a mo...
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Postby ZapX » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:58 pm

NAveryW wrote:And "oral stage" is supposed to refer to the theoretical psychosexual stage during infancy when a child receives erotic pleasure through the mouth, but that didn't stop NGE from using it as the title of a recap episode containing no babies.


I always just figured it was a pun.
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Postby NAveryW » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:51 pm

ZapalacX wrote:I always just figured it was a pun.
Perhaps, but NGE takes real terms and makes them its own all the time. Hayflick limit, PRIBNOW box, Spear of Longinus...
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Postby ZapX » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:36 am

Perhaps, but NGE takes real terms and makes them its own all the time. Hayflick limit, PRIBNOW box, Spear of Longinus...

Certainly. I was being somewhat flippant. But you know how the Japanese love wordplay :wink:
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Postby Xard » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:05 am

NAveryW wrote:And "oral stage" is supposed to refer to the theoretical psychosexual stage during infancy when a child receives erotic pleasure through the mouth, but that didn't stop NGE from using it as the title of a recap episode containing no babies.


Where did you pull erotic from? IIRC it's pleasure overall, and not exactly erotic (though Freud had some pretty fucked up ideas. )

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Postby NAveryW » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:39 pm

Xard wrote:Where did you pull erotic from? IIRC it's pleasure overall, and not exactly erotic (though Freud had some pretty fucked up ideas. )
My old psychology class. Then again, you can't trust what they teach you in school, can you? Though I think the "erotic" aspect makes sense, as the phallic and anal stages involve erotic pleasure. However, I disagree with Freud's theories in that regard anyway (and they're mostly superseded with more modern theories). In fact, I think I'm living proof his theories were wrong.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:17 pm

That stuff of Freud is bull. He's right about some things in general, but the only people he studied/etc were those with sexual problems, not "normal" people.

Anyway, cool find Naw-kun. It wouldn't surprise me if Rebuild would use that.
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Postby Chrono » Thu May 15, 2008 7:17 pm

Freud studied all kinds of people. I can tell because I'm doing a major in Psychology here in Argentina where Freud's theory is what we study most. Well, it depends really on the university you go to, but the one I go and chose to, we study mostly Freud. In fact, I have all his works.

Sorry if my english is not accurate but I'll try my best to explain the oral stage. I know Freud's terminology in spanish but I'll try to explain it the best I can.
The oral stage, is the first stage of the libidinal evolution, and its in fact the mouth (lips, and whatever is there) the erogenous zone where the baby can get the most satisfaction from. Yes, its sexual, at the beginning, the sexual impulse "stays" with the life impulse but then it becomes independent. When we say sexual, we don't mean genital. The impulse is satisfied, never completely. In this stage, there's no difference between an other and an I, the mother who is in charge of taking care of the necesities of the baby is part of him as everything which is good is part of the individual, and everything that's bad is put outside by the mechanism of projection.
So, the "sujet" and the object of love are fused together in this first stage. It somehow recalls what an Eva is, holding both the pilot of the soul of his mother. This matches the strucuture when the "sujet" is his own ideal, as he's the mother, he represents himself by reflecting on her, and can in this way create a feeling of existance. This is the only time "we"'ve ever been complete, of course it's an illusion, but from the point of view of the baby, he's ideal, omnipotent.
Like the Eva, when the pilot feels he's worth it, when he feels he exists, it's a way to return to that time when we were complete, to his own ideal, and it's the time the Eva is more powerful.
In a way, when the Eva becomes berserk, it seems its being dominated by the pple of pleasure that knows no reason, but when for example, Asuka fights the Eva Series, its being dominated by the pple of reality, thought, reason + a load of self-esteem which makes it almost an inmortal being.
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Postby NAveryW » Thu May 15, 2008 8:00 pm

The term "sexual" bothers me in this sense. It could quite probably be the same pleasure that is obtained sexually, but that doesn't intrinsically make it sexual. I read (I can't remember where, but I feel like it was snopes.com) that a lion gets the same pleasure from breaking its prey's neck as it does from sexual activity. Does that make the act of breaking a deer's neck sexual? No, it's simply pleasurable in the same way. What if dogs got pleasure from getting humans to pet them that was the same as the pleasure they got from sex? Would we be committing an act of bestiality every time we gave our dogs a congratulatory ear rub?

Still, Freud's theories have been mostly superseded anyway. I can state for a fact that I am living proof that Freud was wrong about many things, though I can't exactly prove it to other people.
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Postby Chrono » Thu May 15, 2008 8:15 pm

I can answer your doubt. It makes it sexual because it doesn't matter which object is used to satisfy the impulse. In the human sexuality, the object can be anything. In the oral stage, suckin your mum tit's gives you as much pleasure as suckin your own toe. The impulse is satisfied in the erogenous zone.
In the other hand, animals have a determined object because they are behave by their instinct. And instincts have a determined object and no other.

I don't know much about animals, but in the anal stage, we gain sexual pleasure by destroying things and taking control of them. It's a way of dominating the object that once was thought being part of us.

And I repeat, when Freud talks about sexuality, it doesn't mean sex. Sex is the "normal" end in the 2nd wave of the sexuality, after puberty, which takes the genitals as the most important erogenous zone, and the others become unified in this and contribute in the sexual act giving preliminar pleasure, kisses, etc.

And please tell me why you think Freud is wrong, and i dont understand what you mean by superseded.

Ill give a hint, what do babies do before going to sleep or think about what they put always in their mouth and suck all the time, and then think about what adults do before going to sleep, or hell, ever been wanting to sleep and can't, what do u do?
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Thu May 15, 2008 10:50 pm

NAveryW wrote:<snip> Still, Freud's theories have been mostly superseded anyway. I can state for a fact that I am living proof that Freud was wrong about many things, though I can't exactly prove it to other people.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri May 16, 2008 5:08 pm

Unlocked provided things will get back on topic.


With Samael/Sammael, I'm personally starting to think that's the Moon Giant and why ve looks like Lilith. Also consider this: http://evacommentary.org/op/op_1.html#cut001b from the opening.

I do think there's some connection between Lilith and the Moon Giant, and Samael being such would make sense given the information you provided.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri May 16, 2008 5:44 pm

Splitting and banishing the horridly OT crap to the graveyard before unlocking this thread wouldn't have hurt. It looks cluttered as hell ATM.
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