Eva and Asuka both feel the burn

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:12 pm

Soluzar wrote:The best argument I can offer, I already have done. It is my belief Shinji would have died from that amount of physical abuse to the neck region. In the case of Rei, she did not, as far as I recall, die as a result of her physical injuries sustained, but as a result of blowing herself up with an N^2 device.


It was EVA-00's self-destruction system utilizing the core, actually -- kind of like what Sachiel does in #02.

I think that in the cases of Shinji and Rei -- I suspect, kind of like you said, that had really been physically manifesting the damage from the Evas, they would have been very dead. Then again, I suppose an argument could be made that the synchronization level somehow decreased the intensity of the damage from what it was in the Eva.. Apparently, Nerv can control this, with the result, I imagine, that pain to the pilot would decrease, with the downside that other sensory input would be less detailed, as well, making it a "last resort" sort of thing.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 22:21 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:13 pm

Reichu wrote:It was EVA-00's self-destruction system utilizing the core, actually -- kind of like what Sachiel does in #02.

I knew I should have checked. Where did I even get that idea from? In any case, as you have clarified, the explosion killed Rei, not any theoretical damage sustained through the synchronisation.

I think that in the cases of Shinji and Rei -- I suspect, kind of like you said, that had really been physically manifesting the damage from the Evas, they would have been very dead. Then again, I suppose an argument could be made that the synchronization level somehow decreased the intensity of the damage from what it was in the Eva.. Apparently, Nerv can control this, with the result, I imagine, that pain to the pilot would decrease, with the downside that other sensory input would be less detailed, as well, making it a "last resort" sort of thing.


This is why I was forced to admit to Knives that I have nothing more to offer. It could go either way. My view is that it's one of those theories where if you like it, you take it on board, but if you don't like it, it really doesn't make that much difference. It's not one of the big issues. It's fun to debate, but I can't see anything conclusive either way.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 22:45 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:13 pm

Soluzar wrote:I knew I should have checked. Where did I even get that idea from? In any case, as you have clarified, the explosion killed Rei, not any theoretical damage sustained through the synchronisation.

... further clarification, I only recall you suggesting this and then refuting it.

It doesn't poke any holes in the fact that she is indeed experiencing physical strains on her body.

When you take Asuka's very clear, real, distinct injuries
Add that to the fact that we see Rei and Shinji both experiencing physical manifestations of what the Eva is experiencing
I don't see any other way to view it than it is the case that the pilot's mind (which we know to be experiencing the pain) has caused the pain to form real physical manifestations.

And yes, I would say it's in large part due to sync ratio, otherwise they wouldn't care so much about cutting the sync in dangerous situations (Shinji vs. Bardiel, Asuka vs. Zeruel).
I believe in Asuka's case the quote (as Asuka's charging Zeruel) is
Misato: "Cut her nerve connections NOW!"
(dub version ... Image )

Clearly then, NERV knows it's dangerous for the pilot to be experiencing these sensations.

If you take all of this into account, I think it's very clear.

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 22:57 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:13 pm

As I mention above, the venous biofusion that the pilot experience seems to disappear afterwards. So... was it ever really there? Kind of like my question, "Did EVA-00 really turn into a giant naked Rei if there are pieces of her core lying around afterwards?"

As for Asuka's "very real" injuries... The fact that no bones are visible when her arm splits in half has always been a popular point for debate. Image

There are a number of other things I brought up earlier that are simply being glossed over... Image

I don't see any other way to view it than it is the case that the pilot's mind (which we know to be experiencing the pain) has caused the pain to form real physical manifestations.


As I ask above, is this sort of thing really possible in real life? Not that NGE is "real life" in any sense, but I am curious as to whether or not anyone has managed to "will" significant physical injury upon themselves. Personally, I'm extremely skeptical.

An odd thing worth mentioning is that even though Misato orders the synch to be cut between EVA-02 and Asuka (#19), Asuka is seen clutching her throat afterwards... Assuming they acted in time, how would Asuka be aware of the fact that her mama was beheaded?

Originally posted on: 13-Nov-2004, 23:55 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:14 pm

Reichu wrote:As I ask above, is this sort of thing really possible in real life? Not that NGE is "real life" in any sense, but I am curious as to whether or not anyone has managed to "will" significant physical injury upon themselves. Personally, I'm extremely skeptical.

I actually started to point to an example in real life, but decided against it, assuming it to be too obvious.

But since you asked:
Stress is a facet of the mind. Stress can and does cause very real physical consequences (ulcers for instance can be a product of stress alone [that's not to say all ulcers are caused from stress alone — but it's a scientific fact that some are]).
Therefore, yes, the mind can (in real life) cause physical damage to the body.

Reichu wrote:An odd thing worth mentioning is that even though Misato orders the synch to be cut between EVA-02 and Asuka (#19), Asuka is seen clutching her throat afterwards... Assuming they acted in time, how would Asuka be aware of the fact that her mama was beheaded?

... I'll have to review this scene, because I don't remember her clenching her throat — I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I don't remember it.

If it is there, we might assume they cut the nerve connection at the exact moment the blade hit Kyoko's neck.

Or we might assume that they did it too late.

Either way, it's still clear NERV is worried about their pilots experiencing the death their Evas experience.

If it's the case that there is no possible way that the pilots could suffer any real harm, this little tid-bit shouldn't matter.

The fact is, it does matter. If it matters, then there must be some real threat.

It does matter ---> therefore there must be some real threat.

That's the logical progression. I might be able to spell it out clearer, but I've got other things to do for now.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 00:22 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:16 pm

Knives wrote:Stress is a facet of the mind. Stress can and does cause very real physical consequences (ulcers for instance can be a product of stress alone [that's not to say all ulcers are caused from stress alone — but it's a scientific fact that some are]).
Therefore, yes, the mind can (in real life) cause physical damage to the body.


About the ulcers, maybe there's more to it than stress alone. Now, I'm just pulling stuff out of my rectum here, but is it possible that: Stress reduces the effectiveness of bodily systems --> Insufficient mucus is produced for the stomach lining --> Stomach acid effects stomach lining --> Ulcers. That might be completely wrong, but it's just a thought. Overall, I am skeptical of the idea of the body inflicting real physical damage upon itself. In cases where it does, as with the ulcers, my gut tells me that there is "more to it" than the mind proclaiming, "Let there be ulcers!" and ulcers magically appearing. For whatever reason, as little sense as NGE makes, it would please me to find an explanation for the occurences we've been discussing aside from, "If I THINK my arm is split length-wise, it WILL be split length-wise!"

... I'll have to review this scene, because I don't remember her clenching her throat — I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I don't remember it.


I've been uploading WAY too many screenshots lately, but, just because it gives me so much pleasure to be right Image :

Image

Image

To be honest, I didn't notice it until I saw it in the manga first, then went back and saw that it was there in the anime. Same thing with Misato clutching her cross before Zeruel almost blasts her to smithereens, and with the N2 mine Zero plants on Zeruel blowing up most of her right arm, and with these weird doodads they put against Sho's jaw in #20...

If it is there, we might assume they cut the nerve connection at the exact moment the blade hit Kyoko's neck. Or we might assume that they did it too late.


I'd go with the former, myself. I think Asuka started to feel something, but was cut off before the trauma could kill her.

Either way, it's still clear NERV is worried about their pilots experiencing the death their Evas experience.


Remember, this sort of thing hardly qualifies as "death" for an Eva. They can put up with an awful lot -- quite a bit more than their pilots can even deal with vicariously.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 02:01 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:19 pm

Reichu wrote:About the ulcers, maybe there's more to it than stress alone. Now, I'm just pulling stuff out of my rectum here, but is it possible that: Stress reduces the effectiveness of bodily systems --> Insufficient mucus is produced for the stomach lining --> Stomach acid effects stomach lining --> Ulcers. That might be completely wrong, but it's just a thought.

It might also be completely right, but either way, the mind is experiencing the stress which is directly causing the physical effect. Were it not for the stress, there would be no physical ramification.

Reichu wrote:I'd go with the former, myself. I think Asuka started to feel something, but was cut off before the trauma could kill her.[/b]

Remember, this sort of thing hardly qualifies as "death" for an Eva. They can put up with an awful lot -- quite a bit more than their pilots can even deal with vicariously.

Ignoring the non-bolded part, I see you agree with me then Image .

You know I didn't mean to suggest the Eva "died" persay. Pointing to that is merely a smokescreen to hide the statement which I've placed in bold (whether it was conscious or unconscious).

Your statement (bold) would suggest you believe there to be real, physical consequences to the trauma (or in other words, "stress") placed upon Asuka.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 02:29 GMT

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:19 pm

Magami No ER wrote:Well, as much as the movie has influenced me artisticly and is such a masterpiece(to me), it does have flaws that we must accept, and leave it at that.As for the synch rate having susposed to have been stopped,it could have been a mistake, but we could assume that Asuka was so connected to Eva after realizing it was her mother, that she felt the pain anyway,and easily berserked as a result.


There are no flaws in EOE, only flaws in the person watching EOE.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 03:29 GMT

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Postby The Eva Monkey [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:19 pm

Gundampilotspaz wrote:There are no flaws in EOE, only flaws in the person watching EOE.

Its comments like this that make me put serious consideration into deleting my site.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 03:41 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:19 pm

I just named the flaws and in that and other posts, as have others. How can there be none when we have the proof? Put more thought in something before you post it, or you'll look like you did it just to piss people off.
Edit: one flaw Reichu pointed out was that Asuka should have never felt the Evas devour Eva-02 on herself, since the synch-rate was gone.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 03:47 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm

Reichu wrote:And a comparison between Asuka and her mama's arms:

Image

I think that was a combination a of surprise event and a glare of the sun. I'm pretty sure her arm broke in half. Why would it have been banaged in the end, and what would Asuka have died from?

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 03:50 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm

Gundampilotspaz wrote:There are no flaws in EOE, only flaws in the person watching EOE.

It's called sarcasm people.
And Magami, I don't think Reichu was denying that Asuka does indeed suffer physical wounds reminiscent of Kyoko's ... she's just (albeit off and on) against the idea that pilots can experience real damage ... uhm .. I can't explain it right now ... I just finished my late paper and my mind isn't working ...

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 05:01 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm

Knives wrote:Your statement (bold) would suggest you believe there to be real, physical consequences to the trauma (or in other words, "stress") placed upon Asuka.


Actually, I wasn't trying to "smokescreen" anything. My thinking is, rather, that there are certain types of things your body can do to itself -- and certain things it can't. People can die from shock or trauma, or otherwise croak without there being any apparent physical abnormalities. That Asuka might have suffered trauma sufficient to kill her, to make her brain essentially commit suicide (in good "Matrix" fashion), seems plausible enough to me. Considerably less plausible is that her head would mysteriously become severed from her body and fall off. I don't think the human body's "auto-damage" capabilities are quite that impressive. Image

And Knives, refrain from putting words in my mouth. Please. Image

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 05:07 GMT

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Postby Original [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:21 pm

i was thinking about being in synch (no not n sync) and being in synch is to be in unison or operating at the same time right? and you cant have something more than 100% in synchronization. when two things are in synch they are happening at the same time or operating the same way at the same time.for example synchronizing watches... you cant have two watches more in synch than 100%. but when doing something such as operating an eva I see how it would be possible to go above 100%.

at 100% the eva and pilot are in perfect synch able to move easily and operate smothly since the pilot would be in perfect control since he/she is 100% in synch. but to go beyond 100% could mean not only are they operating at the same lvl and same way but the pilot could become so in synch with the eva that the pilot actually feels the pain taken by the eva. and when reaching a lvl of synchronization as high as 400% the pilot can actually take the same wounds as the eva.

when Shinji's eva goes into berserker mode he is not actually in any control whatsoever. the eva is acting on its own and doing its own thing, you know tearing apart its enemy.

with Asuka she attains that 400% synchronization lvl and even when the power runs out on her eva and berserker mode activates she still has control over her eva. when she moves the eva moves. and we clearly see that when the eva feels pain she feels pain. when the eva gets hurt she gets hurt, as we can clearly see from her screams of pain when her eva is getting torn appart and her eye clearly gushes blood from the wound the eva took from the lance.

so perhaps reaching 400% synchronization and still having control over her eva they are so in tune that whatever happenes to the eva happenes to the pilot.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 06:40 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:22 pm

Original: The only instance where we KNOW a 400% synchronization was achieved is with Shinji in #19. "400% Synchronization Rate" is just gabbledygook for losing one's ego boundary in the Eva (or some such thing), splatting into LCL, and entering a "quantum state". There is conflicting evidence that it connected Shinji's soul to EVA-01's core, as well, though I'm not sure how I currently stand on this.

Asuka's synch rates in EoE can only be GUESSED. It is never stated what they are. Shin-seiki has speculated that she does achieve 400% immediately before dying, but obviously didn't beforehand, otherwise she would have Tang-ified.

with Asuka she attains that 400% sych and even when the power runs out on her eva and berserker mode activates she still has control over her eva. when she moves the eva moves. and we clearly see that when the eva feels pain she feels pain. when the eva gets hurt she gets hurt, as we can clearly see from her screams of pain when her eva is getting torn appart and her eye clearly gushes blood from the wound the eva took from the lance.


Asuka only seems to take on wounds "as the creators see fit". EVA-02 is quadruple-pierced through the skull (none of the eyes hit directly), and Asuka enigmatically starts bleeding from her eye. If this is supposed to represent "EVA-02's injuries manifesting in the pilot", Asuka seems marvelously oblivious to the two long tines going through the Eva's head -- this part of the injury obviously skipped Asuka by, as it should have killed her. She also should have been bleeding from the Spear's two exit wounds on the back of EVA-02's skull, if nothing else.

Another big problem is that she should not be able to feel EVA-02 being disembowled (or getting chunks taken out of her cranium that result in her brains splitting out), as the power is out, cutting all synchronization. According to the logic that Asuka's "high synch" somehow overcomes this problem -- which tends to run in lieu with the idea that the "high synch" is also responsible for her bleeding eye -- how come Asuka's own brains and intestines aren't being spilled onto her seat?

And I still would love to know what mysterious force splits Asuka's arm in half. One's limbs tend not to become cleaved without the assistance of a physical agent.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 06:55 GMT

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Postby Original [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:23 pm

well at first she may not actually take on the wounds of the eva when the lance pierces the evas face, and they rip out its intestines. but she is synched high enough with the eva that the pain becomes so extreme in those areas of her body that she bleeds. perhaps she is just bleeding from around her eye, like the blood is just being forced out from around her eye. even though the lance didnt pierce the evas eyes the pain in that general area cause the bleeding from her eye seeing as how its the closest opening to the wound. and yes the ear is also close but the pierce holes are right next to the eye. so therefore im sure she feels the pain all through her head but the bleeding just comes out of her eye due the the extremem pain. notice she also bleeds from her abdomen but her stomach is not torn open. once again its probably just the extreme pain and high synch (even if it is not 400% im sure its godly high) that causes her to bleed from those areas where the eva takes wounds. but during those two instances the eva is powered and then void of power, not yet in berserk mode. im just thinking that when berserker mode happenes she is at some synch rate and i wouldnt even put a % with it, but some kind of synch seeing as how she is the only pilot to still control the eva during berserker mode, that causes her to take on the arm splitting wound that the eva does. before it was just some bleeding and pain, but it seems when berserker mode activates shes in totall control of the eva and perhaps that is why she doesnt tangify.

note: ive never really debated before and im not very good at it, im just throwing out ideas. i dont even have a very large vocabulary, and i am unable to throw all these large strange wounding words together that most of you intelligent people do, that to me dont even make sense evan after i look the word up in the dictionary. so be gentle if you are going to shoot me down. like just lay down a cussion or something to soften the fall.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 07:42 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:26 pm

First off, there is no such thing as "berserk mode". Using the term "berserk" or "berserker" in reference to the Evas is a liberty taken with translation that English-speaking fans have run wild with. In the original Japanese, they simple say bousou, or "out of control", "running wild", etc. Ritsuko says this when EVA-01 goes ballistic in episode #02 (but is still connected to a power source), and Hyuga uses it in #25' when EVA-02 starts moving without power.

I mentioned this earlier with regards to Asuka and EVA-02:

I will concede that the Asuka-Nigouki situation in episode #25' is unlike anything we've seen before... The Eva is in an awakened state (as evidenced by the roars, grunts, and various other things), but the pilot still has some kind of control. The Shinji-Shogouki situation is similarly unique, in that they are synchronized to the point where Shinji feels what Yui feels, but he does absolutely no piloting whatsoever. Back to the former... Shinji DOES, enigmatically, achieve the fabled "400% synchronization rate" with Yui in an unpowered plug, although, while he is in the process of doing so, he only feels the damage being done to Sho indirectly (being inside her body, and all) and not vicariously, as he would were he synchronized. How this can apply to the Asuka situation escapes me, though. My inclination is to think that what happens in #25' is a very big botch, and Asuka shouldn't be any more aware of her mama being gutted than the movement of EVA-02's body (and, hence, the entry plug) while it is happening...


I personally think that the idea that Asuka is in TOTAL control to be a bit of a fallacy. She and Kyoko are "working together", for lack of a better term.

I should point out, also, that Asuka does not bleed as a result of Kyoko being gutted. She simply clutches her abdomen with one hand and her left eye with the other. No physical damage manifests. I would post pictures, but they're all too crappy to be very useful...

If the bleeding eye is simply a result of trauma and is not supposed to "mirror" Kyoko's wounds... perhaps it might be possible to pull out the old theory that Asuka simply imagines her arm being split in half and it does not actually happen. Depends on how much one wants to read into the fact that no details are shown of the cross-section of Asuka's arm, whereas the artists go wild with this sort of stuff when drawing Kyoko and the damaged harpies.

i dont even have a very large vocabulary


I feel very much the same way whenever Mr. Tines makes a post. Image Hell, even if I understand all of the individual words, I still feel like I'm translating from another language.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 20:43 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:29 pm

BTW, why doesn't Asuka have any freaking bones in her right arm?

And auto self damage just might work, as we see Rei was capable of making herself fall apart because she reduced her AT field.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 20:43 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:30 pm

BTW, why doesn't Asuka have any freaking bones in her right arm?


See my post above.

And auto self damage just might work, as we see Rei was capable of making herself fall apart because she reduced her AT field.


Rei arguably is a different case... Shin-seiki supposedly has some ideas in the boiler about this, that hopefully address the fact that when Rei, Rei, Rei, Rei (you get the idea), or even GNR lose their physical integrity, they fall apart in fleshy chunks, rather than liquify the way "normal" people do.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 20:46 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:30 pm

The whole thing just being simple imagination sounds too far fetched... perhaps the original script could tell us more.

Originally posted on: 14-Nov-2004, 09:11 GMT


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