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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:38 pm

@Stryker
We try to judge each case by its merits. Something that is clearly a slight tangent of good-natured banter is going to be dealt with in a good-natured way by whichever mod catches it; something that starts out from the first post of a thread by being provocative and goes downhill from there until it's hard to tell the trolls from their feeders will be handled rather more strictly. And when it's an egregious case of the latter by members who have form, then we (the moderation staff) will go into session for a few days until sentencing is agreed, and one of the admins gets to perform the tedious chore of swinging the hammer.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:More explanation is not necessary, I'd say.
Assuming that the target audience frequents either of those places, or at least knows of them by reputation (e.g. that 4chan is one of SA's by-blows), of course.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:50 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:While I can't speak for the other board staff, I don't want to see the rules list get any longer or more elaborate or more explanatory than the one we have at present. IMHO, the longer and more explicit the rule list on a forum, the less trust there is of forum members, and consequently, the less maturity. That's not something that I (or anyone else on the staff) would like to see happen on EGF.

The rules at QC fit on one screen (that quote was written by the forum owner Jeph Jacques, not me, BTW), and I have written another screen or so explaining how we interpret them. When there has been doubt, such as when I first became a mod there charged with cleaning up a badly-behaved forum, I encouraged open discussion of how things were being done, and stickied the result (after pruning!) rather than trying to express everything in the rules. We've had a couple of other somewhat extended open discussions since, which we felt no need to sticky.

What I'm trying to get over is that I think that open discussion is better than longer rules, and leads to a better relationship between staff and other members - and ultimately (I've found) to members being prepared to do a degree of policing within themselves: cooperation rather than antagonism.

Mr. Tines wrote:Assuming that the target audience frequents either of those places, or at least knows of them by reputation (e.g. that 4chan is one of SA's by-blows), of course.

Of course, you can replace the named forums with more appropriate ones - that was written ten years ago, and naturally referred to another web-comic forum.
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Postby Stryker » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:46 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:@Stryker
We try to judge each case by its merits. Something that is clearly a slight tangent of good-natured banter is going to be dealt with in a good-natured way by whichever mod catches it; something that starts out from the first post of a thread by being provocative and goes downhill from there until it's hard to tell the trolls from their feeders will be handled rather more strictly.


I understand, Mr. Tines. The question is, "What do you consider good-natured banter? What do you consider provocative and trollish? What is the middle ground?"

The reason why I ask is because I want, at the very least, an approximation of where the admins draw the line, which isn't specified in the new section made. Using common sense doesn't work, because there have been occurrences where good-natured banter had led to serious consequences without warning, as well as trolling sessions that had been let off with only warnings (this being said, there have also been instances where proper punishment is made. Do not believe that I do not acknowledge this). So, the next best thing is basically writing out where the line is. Of course, as I have stated before, this isn't so simple. Henceforth, unless the admins decide to remove the section (which I highly doubt), they should use examples to make a gauge that we can use to say, "Okay, enough is enough."

Also, I endorse pwhodges idea of making a complaints/suggestions thread, and then sticking the results of which to the subforum. But wait. . .
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Postby NemZ » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:47 pm

Actually Stryker, one of the first things I suggested upon getting this job was setting up a strict flowchart of offenses and consequences, with progressively more severe punishments. After discussing the issue at length however we decided that it wasn't clear what offenses should add up and which were should run in parallel and that using such a scale would actually result in MANY more people being permabaned.

I'm continuing to work behind the scenes to improve transparency, consistency and responsiveness, but striking a balance between these needs and fairness, compassion, and simplicity is proving quite challenging. It's an ongoing effort, but as it's all build around compromise between different positions there's no clear 'best' answer we can strive towards.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss such matters at length.
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Postby Stryker » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:49 pm

Thank you, NemZ. I'll see what I can do in order to contribute (which might end up being not at all, if you get all the main points).
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Postby Dream » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:11 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I'm continuing to work behind the scenes to improve transparency, consistency and responsiveness, but striking a balance between these needs and fairness, compassion, and simplicity is proving quite challenging. It's an ongoing effort, but as it's all build around compromise between different positions there's no clear 'best' answer we can strive towards.


I'll admit i don't really understand what is the conflict between those two attitudes. With that you meant to say a faster and more effective moderation team would necessarily be less sensitive and compassionate towards the plight of individual users to some degree?
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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:17 am

Yes.

Efforts to codify offenses and punishments strictly so that we can avoid the need to convene on everything are directly at odds with taking each case on it's own terms and determining sentences by group consensus. Both ways of dealing with issues have good and bad points, so the ongoing challenge is to find the best balancing point between the two... which isn't necessarily going to be a fixed point.

People asking for an example of 'the line' are simply out of luck because the exact location of that tipping point might be different for each staff member. We have different priorities, take offense more easily for different infractions and have differing ideas about suitable punishments for a given issue. That's why it often takes a few days between the commission of an offense and punnishment being handed out: we don't all instantly agree about who deserves punnishment for what and how harsh it should be in any given instance. On top of that it's rare for us to all be online at the same time, so there's a delay in gathering opinions.
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:34 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Efforts to codify offenses and punishments strictly so that we can avoid the need to convene on everything are directly at odds with taking each case on it's own terms and determining sentences by group consensus. [...] we don't all instantly agree about who deserves punishment for what and how harsh it should be in any given instance.

"Codify offences"; "how harsh it should be" - this explains quite a lot.

I trust the mods at QC to make sensible decisions individually, and to ask for advice when they feel it's needed. Prompt action, even if slightly less consistent (and I'm not sure that it is), is a far better way to control things than a delayed punishment (parenting hint: it's the same with children; and dogs). And the prompt action can be less severe - we hand out very little actual punishment at QC.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:39 am

This is in the context of bans, right? Can mods ban people on QC?
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Postby pwhodges » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:17 am

Yes; They've been able to do short temp bans (three days max) for some time; but the facility has only ever been used twice or three times, I think (that option also has a warning level, that puts a visible flag by the user's posts, and a post moderation facility which holds posts until passed by a mod, which has been used once, I think). I've now, just a few weeks ago, given global mods full banning rights, as I'm the only active admin and want to be less relied on! But bans are for spammers (very rare now) and full-on trolls (who pop up from time to time).

But as I say, we do almost everything by persuasion and reprimand - both privately and publicly as seems fit. Bans are the last resort, and rarely used unless intended to be permanent.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:38 am

Might as well throw in my two cents.

UA: I think these are good additions to the rules. I don't see the lack of concrete examples or such to be an issue; they're rather clearly meant to be guidelines rather than straightjackets, and since they're basically talking about forum culture -- something that becomes rather clear as one learns to navigate a site -- I think they're sufficient. I expect it will be a learning experience for the staff as well as the users, as we come to tentative agreement on what's okay and what's not, but I think it's a good rule of thumb overall.

PW: The problem with "don't be a dick" -- itself a very good policy -- is that some posters can be disruptive even if they're posting in earnest. They aren't trying to be dicks, and they aren't trolling, but their honest opinions nevertheless prove disruptive and drag things down for everyone. I think anyone familiar with my recent posting history knows who I have in mind there. I guess the corollary to "don't be a dick" is "be productive!" That is to say, don't just air honest gripes, but rather try to move the discussion forward. It's easy to lose sight of this and fall back into old patterns (I wouldn't know anything about that, not me, nosiree! :whistle: ) but I think this is a goal we should aspire to regardless.

Stryker: Asking for concrete examples is not productive IMO. It gives a false sense of what's okay and what's not, and as NemZ noted the specifics vary from mod to mod (as they must). As another site I (used to) frequent put it, "We don't rule on hypotheticals." That's important -- it gives the staff leeway to call a spade a spade, even if it might not otherwise technically adhere to any given rule of thumb. And, as I noted above to Ursus, red/green text will help make the intent of the rule clear here, while also giving us a chance to learn and provide feedback. The rule isn't unilateral, so no need to get too worked up about it.

NemZ: On the topic of transparency, it would be helpful to let users know right away if a mod comment or decision is based on posting behavior that negatively affects other users. In the recent thread suggesting changes to posting habits in the Evangelion pictures thread it wasn't clear (to me at least) that the proposed change was based on actual problems users faced: to me it all sounded like a concrete change to a hypothetical problem. Once it became clear users were actually having problems my position shifted from "why are we talking about this?" to "wait, users are having problems? That's bad, we need to do something!" Tell us that up front! It may be obvious to you but on our end it looked like a mod request that came out of nowhere.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:21 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote: I expect it will be a learning experience for the staff as well as the users, as we come to tentative agreement on what's okay and what's not, but I think it's a good rule of thumb overall.


Indeed it will. We tend to be relaxed with our application of the rules when there isn't much trouble on the forum. We're here to have fun just as much as everyone else, and we try to let others have their fun as far as we can.

That's actually one of the other issues with codifying offenses - it would actually prevent us from being nicer than normal even if we wanted to.

. And, as I noted above to Ursus, red/green text will help make the intent of the rule clear here, while also giving us a chance to learn and provide feedback.


Where's the bit about red/green text? You seem to have deleted it from your post!

On the topic of transparency, it would be helpful to let users know right away if a mod comment or decision is based on posting behavior that negatively affects other users.<snip>


This is a very valid point and worth paying serious attention to.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:08 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:On the topic of transparency, it would be helpful to let users know right away if a mod comment or decision is based on posting behavior that negatively affects other users. In the recent thread suggesting changes to posting habits in the Evangelion pictures thread it wasn't clear (to me at least) that the proposed change was based on actual problems users faced: to me it all sounded like a concrete change to a hypothetical problem. Once it became clear users were actually having problems my position shifted from "why are we talking about this?" to "wait, users are having problems? That's bad, we need to do something!" Tell us that up front! It may be obvious to you but on our end it looked like a mod request that came out of nowhere.

Practically everything that is done starts off as a user request or feedback or complaints. Rarely does something get done just for the sake of doing it. We don't always talk about it because PMs are, of course, private, and in some of the cases, either personal or complicated if made public knowledge. I have a huge backlog of requests for things to be done that I just don't have time to implement.

Now, small things like "get back on topic" or regular moderation like locking, deleting, merging, splitting, etc. Those are done on a moderator's judgement and usually aren't prompted by direct user feedback.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:40 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Practically everything that is done starts off as a user request or feedback or complaints. Rarely does something get done just for the sake of doing it. We don't always talk about it because PMs are, of course, private, and in some of the cases, either personal or complicated if made public knowledge. I have a huge backlog of requests for things to be done that I just don't have time to implement.


I certainly don't want people called out or anything; sorry if my point came across that way. But if it's something general like "this thread is so image-heavy it's crashing my system/giving me bandwidth problems" it would be helpful to know that at the start. After all, if it happens to one person it might be happening to others, yes?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:49 pm

I think it's getting to be time to remind people of the rules concerning images, in particular

Posting replies in the form of an image (e.g., image macros) is discouraged, and may constitute a warning.
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Postby riffraff11235 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:33 pm

@Mr. Tines

:whistle:

Alright, I concede that I've probably been doing that too much recently. Sometimes I just feel like images encapsulate my feelings more effectively than words, you know? I'll do my best to stem my urges in the future.
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Postby Guy Nacks » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:44 pm

I think it's okay if you're not posting macros consistently and when you do, trying to find the smallest image which gets your point across so as not to take up unnecessary space. At least that's always been my MO with that stuff.

Everyone does it, but it's all about moderation, you know? Kinda like masturbation.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:28 pm

While even I am occasionally tempted to pull out a reaction image, on the whole I feel that they're an overused standby of image boards and other such places, and represent the encroachment of chan culture on every-fucking-where else. Most reaction images that I see are either so overused as to be rendered meaningless, or so context-specific (reliant on knowing some meme or whatever movie scene they're from, for example) that they communicate even less than just typing your goddamn thoughts out would. Not to mention, I tend to see reaction images as a mark of laziness: "Why bother trying to convey a genuine personal thought when I can just repost some prepackaged visual that I found on the Internet?"

If you go to the trouble of specifically tailoring an image for the purpose of expressing a visual reaction within a thread -- the way I used to before I lost all my youthful vigor -- that's another matter... The images being Eva-related helps, of course.
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Postby Dream » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:50 pm

And to turn that around: What is the point of writing some long paragraph in which your intent might be muddled by words and akward phrasing when an image encapsulates your feelings perfectly? I don't know, i aggree that some contexts like the net neutrality thread aren't really proper for reaction images, but personally i believe written word is just as subject to misuse as images are. I believe there can be as much genuine personal touch in a properly chosen image as in a properly worded reply. And no, i don't think it's really necessary to "tailor" some image for the specific discussion of the thread.

But of course, i might be wrong :shrug:
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Postby pwhodges » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:57 pm

My objection to reaction images is that they are usually too big and in-your-face, so that in a thread of text messages they are like someone coming in to the room and yelling at everyone. And frankly, IME very few of them are as perfect as you propose.
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