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Postby KnightmareX13 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:11 am

Can we add illegal drugs to the Illicit Material section of the rules? Since nearly all discussions pertaining to them ends like this: [url]http://forum.evageeks.org/post/535194/Who-else-here-likes-to-get-high/#535194[/url]
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:01 am

It's a matter of taste. Surely, we are in compliance with law, so if we see someone coordinating a drug sale or something similarly illegal, we'll put a stop to it. But as a topic, it's like religion or politics, there's nothing saying you can't have an intelligent or mature discussion about it, it's just not terribly likely, and when that discussion devolves and becomes a mess, we'll put a stop to it.

BTW, happy 4/20 day.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:06 am

Personally speaking, I'm on the progressive side of politics. I think people should be able to do almost whatever they want as long as there's some regulation so people can stay safe and happy (eg: prostitution, drugs).

That said, threads on EGF that get into politics or religion don't last long because people--for whatever reason--can't conduct themselves in a mature fashion.

The thread in question was already showing warning signs of getting ugly (bringing in politics and people butting heads) which is why I locked it when I did.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:19 pm

View Original PostKnightmareX13 wrote:Can we add illegal drugs to the Illicit Material section of the rules?
In case you might have missed it, we already have this
Threads on religion, politics, drugs, etc. exist at the pleasure of the moderators.

under the section on threads; this is notice that they will be locked without further warning as and when they get out of hand.

Apart from that, the guiding principle is ”We're all grown-ups here”. After all, in a forum about a significantly controversial anime series, touchy subjects are already part of the territory.
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Postby KnightmareX13 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:21 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:In case you might have missed it, we already have this

under the section on threads; this is notice that they will be locked without further warning as and when they get out of hand.

Apart from that, the guiding principle is ”We're all grown-ups here”. After all, in a forum about a significantly controversial anime series, touchy subjects are already part of the territory.

No I saw that it is just that when drug threads get started they all end with a lock. Just outlawing them all together would save the effort.
View Original PostThe Eva Monkey wrote:BTW, happy 4/20 day.
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Postby Henry Spencer » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:31 pm

View Original PostKnightmareX13 wrote:Hitler's birthday? Not something to celebrate.


Not to mention the 13th anniversary of the Columbine shootings. Has it really been that long?
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Postby Oenara » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:08 am

Since the "forum wackiness" thread is designated for alerts only, can we have an all-purpose thread for feedback on forum issues that don't merit their own thread?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:20 am

There have been a few recent updates to the rules.

First off, we've added a new section on other forms of disruptive posting - posts that don't fall clearly into the categories of trolling, spam or flaming but which nevertheless cause a serious nuisance.

:rulez: wrote:
J. Other Disruptive Posting:

Other forms of disruptive posting include making open statements that the topic is not worth discussing (One old but infamous example being "inb4lock") or continuously making negative or off-topic comments that lower the quality of discussion while contributing little or nothing. As such, this sort of behavior is judged mainly by its effects rather than by stated intentions.

Monotonous negative or off-topic posting is a problem in much the same way as trolling. It ruins any thread no matter the potential for fruitful discussion, drives away users who have genuine contributions to make, creates pointless tangents and provokes emotional reactions from users reading the thread. Users who are responsible for spoiling threads - deliberately or otherwise - may be subject to action as the staff deems fit.


Also, the section on "spam" has been expanded to make the consequences for certain kinds of poor behavior more explicit.

:rulez: wrote: E2. Spam:

A post that doesn’t advance the topic of discussion or contribute in some way is spam. That is to say, junk. Noise. Pointless filler. This should also be avoided as much as possible, and will result in warnings and in extreme cases, bans.

Corollary 1. The forum is not a chat room. Repeated "chatty" posting in threads or the creation of entire spam threads will result in warnings and/or bans.
Corollary 2. The forum is not 4chan. Contributing nonsensical and non-sequitur posts with poor language, grammar and "chanisms" with any degree of regularity will result in warnings and/or bans.
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Postby Stryker » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:07 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:J. Other Disruptive Posting:

Other forms of disruptive posting include making open statements that the topic is not worth discussing (One old but infamous example being "inb4lock") or continuously making negative or off-topic comments that lower the quality of discussion while contributing little or nothing. As such, this sort of behavior is judged mainly by its effects rather than by stated intentions.

Monotonous negative or off-topic posting is a problem in much the same way as trolling. It ruins any thread no matter the potential for fruitful discussion, drives away users who have genuine contributions to make, creates pointless tangents and provokes emotional reactions from users reading the thread. Users who are responsible for spoiling threads - deliberately or otherwise - may be subject to action as the staff deems fit.


This section is extremely vague. Other than the "open statements that the topic is not worth discussing," almost everything else is completely up to interpretation of a strict or loose kind. I mean, what constitutes as comments that decrease the quality of the thread? What is a "bad quality" thread, as well as a good one? Which effects deserve what punishements? Interpretations, in of itself, has driven away many forum regulars who have contributed very important content that had increased the reputation as well as the credibility of Evageeks. Seeing such a section of such unclear nature disturbs me.

I propose an augmentation to the section: Include examples, such as topics or replies, that come directly from this forum (ones that actually happened), so that we know what kind of posts you mean. Provide direct links to them, too. This way, such nonsense posting can be avoided.

Here, I have one for you: That Nintendo 2DS thread that was made.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:50 am

I'm not sure any of us want to finger specific users with instances of violations. Besides, is it really that hard to imagine how someone might spoil a thread with off-topic posting or rambling?

That Nintendo thread, by the way, is a perfect example of a chatroom spam thread, which is why all major participants landed up in trouble.
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Postby Stryker » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:06 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:I'm not sure any of us want to finger specific users with instances of violations.

I do understand. This, and avoiding new posters to holding grudges to posters who are in the examples. But, a good forum frequenter would also understand that everyone, at least once in a while, partakes in such tomfoolery. Perhaps this should also be stated alongside the examples? This way, those who are just started the forum frequenting understand, and know not to hold such instances against posters.


View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Besides, is it really that hard to imagine how someone might spoil a thread with off-topic posting or rambling?

Agreed, but it is hard for non admins/moderators to imagine what exact consequences one may have for doing so. The section does not address this. In fact, it explicitly states that those who create such nonsense are "subject to action as the staff deems fit." This isn't good, because this makes the judicial system (for lack of better term) in the administrative system very opaque. In a forum where we want transparency, this is cannot be condoned. Making, and addressing, strict fashions as to how disruptive posting will be dealt with will give some degree of transparency. This will ease the userbase, which is precisely what you want (at least, if you want consistent forum regulars).
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Postby TheFriskyIan » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:18 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:That Nintendo thread, by the way, is a perfect example of a chatroom spam thread, which is why all major participants landed up in trouble.

I could've swore everyone in that thread was banned.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:31 pm

View Original PostStryker wrote:Agreed, but it is hard for non admins/moderators to imagine what exact consequences one may have for doing so. The section does not address this. In fact, it explicitly states that those who create such nonsense are "subject to action as the staff deems fit." This isn't good, because this makes the judicial system (for lack of better term) in the administrative system very opaque..


It isn't opaque. We usually deal with this kind of thing on a case by case basis. So while one instance of bad posting might result in something relatively harmless - a lock, thread pruning, or editing a post - a more serious offense like creating an entire spam thread might result in bans, like the case we have now.

The fact remains that we can't tell you what punishment we decide to give for an offense that hasn't happened because each offense varies. We try to be transparent as possible when explaining the basis for a particular punishment, but we can't always tell you "if you do exactly X the consequences will be exactly Y."

Try making up rules specifying punishments for every single conceivable offense by every single conceivable offender and you'll land up with a 100-page rules sheet that no one can read or use.

Tomfoolery has been on this forum for a while, but there's a difference between tomfoolery that's actually funny and tomfoolery that does nothing but cause headaches all around, and no amount of rules can make the difference obvious. It's a matter of seeing it and knowing it, the same as with...well, I don't need to mention it.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:39 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:Tomfoolery has been on this forum for a while, but there's a difference between tomfoolery that's actually funny and tomfoolery that does nothing but cause headaches all around, and no amount of rules can make the difference obvious. It's a matter of seeing it and knowing it, the same as with...well, I don't need to mention it.

This is all encapsulated in a short sentence in the rules I police elsewhere:
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:01 pm

pwhodges wrote:This isn't Slashdot or the Something Awful Forums. Don't be a jackass.


Pithy and effective. I like it. Come to think of it, do we have an equivalent statement anywhere in that list...?

While I can't speak for the other board staff, I don't want to see the rules list get any longer or more elaborate or more explanatory than the one we have at present. IMHO, the longer and more explicit the rule list on a forum, the less trust there is of forum members, and consequently, the less maturity. That's not something that I (or anyone else on the staff) would like to see happen on EGF.

(Edited out a rather cynical segment of that post - while I do have reservations on certain things, on reflection, these are best not expressed now.)
Last edited by UrsusArctos on Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Stryker » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:12 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:It isn't opaque. We usually deal with this kind of thing on a case by case basis. So while one instance of bad posting might result in something relatively harmless - a lock, thread pruning, or editing a post - a more serious offense like creating an entire spam thread might result in bans, like the case we have now.

Sure, but we want to know what YOU consider a relatively harmless post, and what YOU consider a serious offense. Now, what I am not suggesting is this:

Try making up rules specifying punishments for every single conceivable offense by every single conceivable offender and you'll land up with a 100-page rules sheet that no one can read or use.

Because of the reasons you said. It would be ridiculous, and constantly growing because people are creative little motherfuckers that find ways of ruining good forums. What I am suggesting is providing some examples, as well as the consequences for those examples. This way, we can, at the very least, estimate reasonably what will happen when a specific instance occurs. Like a scale of sorts. . .

Take this, for example: There was one point where, on the "WTF does your sig/avatar come from?", where I had a facetious converse with Tankred. Tines at around the end of it, gave us a warning (in a form of a silly picture), and that was all. So with instances that are similar we could estimate would be treated the same way, and that we know it is considered harmless for the most part. But, things such as the 2DS thread where it was only bashing and stupidity, in which it resulted with everyone partaking in it banned, irregardless of how they contributed to it. Therefore, with instances that are similar to this one, we can infer that such things can happen. We now have a scale between these two instances: events that occur like the facetious converse between Tankred and I will be treated like so, while events like the 2DS thread will be treated like they were then. Things that are sorta inbetween, will be treated like a cross between the two. . . the more examples to use for the scale, the better the estimates will be.

With this being said though, one may ask, "Why should we have such examples in the rules if you already know?" The answer to that would be that new members would have not witnessed either of these two things happening. They would have no scale to base the actions of others as well as their own to work off of. Older members may have easily missed such instances (the converse took about a half a page, making it easy to pass without thinking, while the 2DS thread will eventually be forgotten).

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:We try to be transparent as possible when explaining the basis for a particular punishment.

But it is always after it happens. Of course, when you deal with it case-by-case with no specific structure provided to the userbase, you can't really provide it before. This is why making a structure is all the more important.


What I am merely asking for, Ursus, is a straight, easy to reference, illustration of the patterns admins follow with particular occurrences of disruptive posting. This would be done with posting examples of some, not all, disruptive posts, and how they were dealt with. With this, we understand how you think, and how you will react, when disruptive posting happens. How come you seem so against this?

This is something I see on other forums: rules regarding such things are purposefully left ambiguous so that admins can get away with snipping, kicking, and banning other users because they posted something they didn't like, or thought was just useless without any basis. I don't have any evidence to suggest that any administrator here would ever do that, but it just seems so suspicious with this new section added to the rules. Is it wrong of me to ask for something that I feel will assure for justice for me and my fellow frequenters, and to request the straightening out of a section I believe may dent the quality of this forum (which, if I may say, is much greater than many forums I have frequented)?


EDIT:

While I can't speak for the other board staff, I don't want to see the rules list get any longer or more elaborate or more explanatory than the one we have at present. IMHO, the longer and more explicit the rule list on a forum, the less trust there is of forum members, and consequently, the less maturity. That's not something that I (or anyone else on the staff) would like to see happen on EGF.

I agree, and I have seen it for myself. But you say this while making the rule list longer with another section, which you would argue is absolutely necessary. . .
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Postby UrsusArctos » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:23 pm

This is something I see on other forums: rules regarding such things are purposefully left ambiguous so that admins can get away with snipping, kicking, and banning other users because they posted something they didn't like, or thought was just useless without any basis. I don't have any evidence to suggest that any administrator here would ever do that, but it just seems so suspicious with this new section added to the rules. Is it wrong of me to ask for something that I feel will assure for justice for me and my fellow frequenters, and to request the straightening out of a section I believe may dent the quality of this forum (which, if I may say, is much greater than many forums I have frequented)?


Back in the old days, this paragraph would have been summarily dismissed as "This forum is not a democracy" - as someone who has been around for nigh over six years I think I can say (as a member) that this place has become quite a bit milder than it used to be. Perhaps too mild for quality control.

At the same time, I see rather legitimate concerns here. Sleepy as I am and having other work to do, I'll leave someone else to answer your question.

By the way, none of us are tyrants and none of us are here to make you guys miserable on purpose. We're just ordinary (if grumpy) people taking valuable time out of real life to make this forum good.
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The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

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Postby Ornette » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:33 pm

The addition isn't some "new rule", stuff like this has always been umbrella'ed under some other sections (like "spam"). It's just sometimes we have to spell it out for those who prefer the letter of the rule over the spirit, so now we have a section we can link to when we send PMs to people, as opposed to just PMing them to "cool it with the ..." just to get the response "with the what? I'm not breaking any rules".

None of this is anything new.
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Postby Stryker » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:18 pm

That doesn't change the fact that there should be some sort of gauge or scale we can use. If it has been made into it's own scale, it most likely means that admins will be actively searching out for this, if not more than before. Since this is the case, it should only be fair that we have some sense of what is what, which is written on paper. If, like you said, it is necessary to spell it all out, you may as well spell it all out in detail, instead of being vague.
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Postby Ornette » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:28 pm

There is no scale for any administrative action for any case or for any rule of any kind, there has never been. The only exception in the history of these forums is the spoiler policy. That was pretty cut and dry and people still got their panties in a bunch.

You can just as easily get perma-banned for one issue as you can get away with any number of issues for years and years with nothing ever being done about it. It depends on the specifics and unique circumstances for each issue. It's always been this way. Whenever we tried to put together some sort of "checklist" or whatever, people end up getting banned for stuff that, with a bit of common sense, anyone can see that they really don't deserve. Obviously there's a great bit of difference and complexity between getting perma-banned vs just getting a PM saying to stop doing something, every and all attempts to gauge this has failed.

Additionally, if people are going to knowingly break rules, and require this "scale" in order to measure how much they can get away with. They probably don't belong here.
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