The Advice (on guns) Topic

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The Advice (on guns) Topic

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Postby BobBQ » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:40 pm

I'm throwing this out partly to offset the recent wave of idiocy and partly because I honestly can't make up my mind on something and suspect that I'm not the only one. In a nutshell, if there's something in your life that you want advice on, ask and see what others say. Please keep it civil and free of silliness.

Here's my dilemma: as most of you know, I am a gun nut in a family of pacifists. In recent months, however, my parents have apparently come to feel that I am finally responsible enough to possess and operate my weapon of choice, as my siblings have been doing for years, and relaxed their stance to such a degree that my father - who'd normally never touch a firearm with a spinnaker pole - actually went and looked around one of the local shops.

I was originally planning to just get some airsoft replicas, but my father's attitude seems to be that if I'm going to do it at all I might as well do it for real. Since I'm still going to school in Canada, I won't be able to make what has been a dream for over ten years come true until next summer, but I'm still doing a lot of thinking about my choices and I'm very badly stuck. I'm primarily a handgun person, but owning a rifle would, at this point, involve fewer legal hassles. Assuming that I plan to use the weapon primarily for target practice but want it to be useful in other situations if necessary, the most likely options are these:

> Ruger Mark III / Browning Buck Mark .22 target pistols: simple, cheap and carried by the local stores. The ammo costs next to nothing and designs like these are the de facto standard for target practice and plinking, but I don't find them terribly useful otherwise. I really consider the .22 because it is the default for beginning shooters.

> Ruger 10/22: a light semi-auto rifle with an insane variety of aftermarket parts. While they're popular enough to show up in the stores around where I live, my impression is that the cost of upgrading one into something useful can and will often be higher than that of the gun itself.

> Makarov PM: an old Soviet service pistol, very simple and reliable and available fairly cheaply on the surplus market. It fires a 9mm round which is pretty much at the bottom end of the acceptable power range for pistols intended for fighting, but is supposed to be reasonably accurate. If I were to pursue this option, I'd go for an East German or Bulgarian model.

> Tokarev TT-33: an even older Soviet gun, which the Makarov replaced. It shares the simplicity and reliability of the PM, but fires a much more powerful round. While I like the mechanical design of the Tokarev better, it makes a lot more noise - a potential problem even though our home is in a fairly rural area and other people do shoot within hearing range now and then - and the 7.62x25 round is more likely to overpenetrate or overshoot the target. As an additional headache, pretty much any Tokarev on the US surplus market, be it Russian, Chinese, Polish, Hungarian or what-have-you, will have a crude manual safety retrofitted in order to comply with BATF import regulations. That isn't a showstopper, but it kind of spoils the notion of owning a piece of history.

> M1911: the classic USGI .45, as made by Colt, Rem-Rand and more companies than one can shake two sticks at. While there's nothing wrong with the design itself, a good piece is more complex than and will probably cost rather more than a Mak or Tok - and the Tok is very similar mechanically - and either won't have the same neat factor as a proper military surplus piece or will be so banged up and loose as to be useless for my purposes.

> Mauser Karabiner 98k: the standard rifle of Nazi Germany and, much more importantly for me, one of the best bolt-action rifles in the world. It's accurate and powerful enough for target practice, hunting and defense all at once, whether in the original 7.92mm or the Israeli 7.62 NATO conversions. Good K98s can be had at decent prices, but the noise and range problems of the Tokarev also apply here.

> Mosin-Nagant 91/30: the K98's Soviet counterpart. While it works quite well for a design so old, it doesn't really appeal to me and the only real draw is that good ones can be had for less than comparable Mausers.

> Short Magazine Lee Enfield: there are quite a few of the old British bangsticks kicking around and I've heard that they generally perform well. While they hold more rounds than the Mauser or Mosin-Nagant and the .303 is nothing to sneeze at, I think the only reason I'd consider buying one is family nostalgia, as my namesake great-grandfather carried an SMLE during World War I.

> SKS-45: elder brother of the AK-47 and not nearly as liable to offend squeamish politicians, the SKS is a ten-shot self-loader firing the 7.62x39 Soviet round, which is roughly on a par with the old .30-30 and suitable for plinking and hunting at moderate ranges. While I'd prefer an Albanian or East German example, practical concerns mean that I'd probably be limited to the Chinese Type 56 version. All in all, I'd take a good SKS over any of the other rifles, even though mounting a scope on one is insanely difficult, but the cost of an SKS would likely be a little higher than for any of the bolt-actions.

So that's my problem. You can throw in your two cents or pose a dilemma of your own as you like.

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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:53 pm

hmm, can you possess only one or two rifles and/or one handgun?

and would they be just for plinking or (maybe) self-defense?
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Postby slothen » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:56 pm

Congrats on your future purchase. From reading the descriptions, I'd go with the Makarov. One of these days I'm going to need to familiarize myself with the proper care and use of firearms, especially if I decide to flee the country after the next election.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:58 pm

slothen wrote:<snip> One of these days I'm going to need to familiarize myself with the proper care and use of firearms, especially if I decide to flee the country after the next election.
as do I
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Postby DatDude » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:52 pm

Above all else you want reliability in a weapon. The ods of you ever needing to use one to save your life are slim but if it ever happens you want the damn thing to work.

I'd go with the M1911 The same design has been used and re used for so long for a reason. Damn the army for switching to 9m ammo
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Postby V » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:30 am

I just have a winchester 12 gauge; for use in the upcoming zombie uprising
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Postby Hunter21 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:19 pm

Personally I can't stand handguns as they are worthless to me (accuracy being a big thing to a hunter and all) so I can't really give you much advice in which one of them to get. But if you want something for target practice go with some sort of .22 The ammo is cheap and the design is pretty simple. Any of the major brands should do good and be reliable. Personally my favorite brand right now is Stoeger. The new shotgun I got last year is one of theirs and I really like it's action and easy loadability.

One thing I will stres is that no matter what you get make sure you take a firearms safety class. If you think you are responsible enough to own a gun you should be responsible enough to take a class.
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Postby BrikHaus » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:24 pm

Hunter21 wrote:One thing I will stres is that no matter what you get make sure you take a firearms safety class. If you think you are responsible enough to own a gun you should be responsible enough to take a class.

Did Chow Yun Fat take a gun safety class? No, he took a "how to look like a badass with a gun in each hand class." That's the kind of class I want to take.
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Postby Kaminoyouni » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:28 pm

V wrote:I just have a winchester 12 gauge; for use in the upcoming zombie uprising
then you to get to my place, we're like an armory. my friends all say that in the event of Z-day(not to make this thread about it though) I am the first person they'd come to. while ON TOPIC i don't know enough about guns to be of any help.
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Postby Hunter21 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:42 pm

BrikHaus wrote:
Hunter21 wrote:One thing I will stres is that no matter what you get make sure you take a firearms safety class. If you think you are responsible enough to own a gun you should be responsible enough to take a class.

Did Chow Yun Fat take a gun safety class? No, he took a "how to look like a badass with a gun in each hand class." That's the kind of class I want to take.


I wasn't joking around BrikHaus. Every year there are horror stories about people dying during hunting season because someone didn't follow the primary rules of safety. And occasionally even at ranges there are accidents all because people think it's cool to look like a badass with a gun. You probably know more than anyone else here what the end results look like when there is an accident. Not exactly a joking matter.
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Postby drinian » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:11 pm

Seriously, I've been through gun safety training and seeing some of my friends who hadn't try to handle a handgun at a range was downright scary. Although BobBQ may be an exception to this in terms of knowledge. But take it out with an expert the first time.

And consider going Airsoft -- less money, less hassle, less potential trouble. Also, anti-gun != pacifist.

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Postby BobBQ » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:26 pm

THE Hal E. Burton 9000 wrote:hmm, can you possess only one or two rifles and/or one handgun?

It's a matter of time, cost and space, so probably just one to start with.

and would they be just for plinking or (maybe) self-defense?

Both, hence the lack of interest in .22s.

Hunter21 wrote:One thing I will stres is that no matter what you get make sure you take a firearms safety class. If you think you are responsible enough to own a gun you should be responsible enough to take a class.

It's high on the to-do list.

BrikHaus wrote:Did Chow Yun Fat take a gun safety class? No, he took a "how to look like a badass with a gun in each hand class." That's the kind of class I want to take.

Chow Yun-Fat hates guns. Whoda thunk it?

drinian wrote:And consider going Airsoft -- less money, less hassle, less potential trouble.

That's what my original plan was, and I might still go with it. If only all the airsoft guns I've ever handled weren't so damned flimsy.

Also, anti-gun != pacifist.

And pacifist != anti-gun. My parents, however, are both.

Nobody else in need of advice? Tsk, tsk.

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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:30 pm

Mauser Karabiner 98k then for the first rifle.

And M1911 for the first handgun.
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Postby cyharding » Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:01 pm

If you are considering a Mauser rifle, I would suggest a model 1896 Swedish in 6.5x55. It is a very useful cailber for target shooting and I think its ballistic coefficent is better than that of a .308.

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Postby BobBQ » Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:43 pm

I'll take that into consideration, though I suspect the ammo will be rare as hen's teeth around here.

Another option I neglected to mention is to get a decent revolver, something like a 4" or 6" Smith and Wesson K- or L-frame in .357, but I don't know as much about those as I do about mil-surp autoloaders. Anyone here have experience with them?

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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:03 pm

actually, a revolver would be best for the first handgun

.357 is also great for all that you hope to use it for

the only thing about a .357 is to be careful about bullet and gun weight

why? possible recoil

for instance, if you were to take a moon clip of 180 gr. .357s and were to load them into a J-frame or even some K-frame revolver, and you aren't able to handle recoil, plinking is not going to be very fun experience

with that being said, a .357 just might be the best revolver to have around

just make sure the revolver itself has a respectable weight and it is a nice match for whatever bullet weight you end up shooting with
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Postby Alaska Slim » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:45 pm

V wrote:I just have a winchester 12 gauge; for use in the upcoming zombie uprising

Too bad you don't have a foolproof plan like I do. :wink:

As to a gun, Colt M1911 .45, sad how the Army gave it up, but they had to, it's ammo isn't NATO standard, they wouldn't of been able to keep it supplied. 8)
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Postby Big Panda » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:37 pm

You're lucky.

In Brazil, getting one gun is as hard as a trekkie getting laid, and when you gey it you can ONLY use it in your house. If somebody try to sneak inside your house and you kill him, you're getting some big touble. ESPECIALLY when the dead body falls in the street (Public domain, and with it no invasion. No invasion? No self-defense... it sounds lame, but there's people in jail for this)

The only way to get a gun and do something is... being a criminal.
IDIOTS.

Ps: I'm not pro-gun, but this is STUPID.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:16 pm

another reason why the Second Amendment is just one of the things that makes America great! :P
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Postby drinian » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:29 pm

Big Panda wrote:The only way to get a gun and do something is... being a criminal.
IDIOTS.

Yeah, aren't there shootouts fairly often in the favelas?


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