Cowboy Bebop

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Postby Dream » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:21 pm

View Original PostStarShaper7 wrote:
SPOILER: Show



Pretty off-topic i know but this is like the coolest thing i've ever seen in my life.

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Postby Stan » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:57 pm

Just re-watched bebop on BD, I am still convinced that it's not "the best anime ever" nor does it have "the best dub of all time". It is a very fun show, it sounds good, and it aged very well considering it's almost 20 years old -- it looks fantastic given it's age!

I noticed this time around how many episodes are 'filler' -- absolutely no character development or plot progression. It would be brilliant if it was about 18-20 episodes. It's still a very good show, but definitely not as great as the fanbase makes it out to be.

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Postby Ray » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:25 am

View Original PostStan wrote:ust re-watched bebop on BD, I am still convinced that it's not "the best anime ever" nor does it have "the best dub of all time


Burn the HERETIC!

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#ControversialAnimeOpinions

I noticed this time around how many episodes are 'filler' -- absolutely no character development or plot progression. It would be brilliant if it was about 18-20 episodes. It's still a very good show, but definitely not as great as the fanbase makes it out to be.


Well that's kind've the draw. Despite being Sci-fi it takes time to let us breathe and enjoy spending time with the characters.
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Postby Stan » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:10 am

View Original PostRay wrote:#ControversialAnimeOpinions


I actually posted that bebop is overrated on that thread earlier ;)

Just wanted to re-watch it and see if my opinion change, which it didn't aha

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Postby Defectron » Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:20 pm

View Original PostStan wrote:I actually posted that bebop is overrated on that thread earlier ;)

Just wanted to re-watch it and see if my opinion change, which it didn't aha


I agree it's not the best ever, I would say the same about Gunbuster and Madoka but that being said all of those are still very good.

Would saying that bebop isn't the very best anime out there that sets the standards for all other anime really be a controversial opinion though? I mean it's good but it's not that good imo.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:46 pm

View Original PostStan wrote:bebop is overrated

Hard not to be when you're a 12/10

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Postby Joy Evangelion » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:50 pm

View Original PostStan wrote:it's not "the best anime ever" nor does it have "the best dub of all time"

....

I noticed this time around how many episodes are 'filler' -- absolutely no character development or plot progression


Yea, I did a rewatch of it last month, which was also the first time I watched the series subbed. Obviously, I found the Japanese dub to be much more enjoyable, and way less annoying. Since I grew up watching it on Adult Swim(when A.S. was normal) dubbed I could never bring myself to watch the series without the American VAs, so I'm pretty familiar with the dub, which I'd review by saying this; Spike/Faye/Jet/Ed 's VAs are decent, but do too much to change the way the audience perceives the character. American-Spike never quite sounds laid back enough, and American-Faye always sounds a bit bitchy and not like the voice a 23 year old would have and American-Ed is pretty cute, but she sounds much, much wackier than her Japanese counterpart. And then the American VAs of basically every other character in the show(esp. Vicious) sound like crappy hacks who were only hired because of their unique/annoying voices, i.e. dude who collected beta tapes, blue sox fan, waitress at bar who sells Spike the prarie oyster, the three old dudes, ALL of the ecoterrorists, the hosts of Big Shots etc. etc. Like, in 2071 wasn't there anyone left in the solar system with a somewhat normal voice? And I'm pretty sure the American VA who voiced the girl in the Feng Shui episode didn't even know how to act. (Of course, none of the dubbing in Bebop was ever as bad as Misato's line in the ADV dub of Episode 22 about "Arael looking for a nice comfy place to land.")
But I hate all dubs, everywhere, so take what I've said with a grain of salt...not trying to start any arguments.

And regarding the episodes as filler, I couldn't agree with you more. Like, I remember when I was 13 I absolutely LOVED the Mad Pierrot episode and Mushroom Samba, and I still really like the Brain Scratch episode, but once they're over I don't really feel anything and I wouldn't have any desire to watch them if I weren't working my way through the series. A lot of burn outs I know do really love Mushroom Samba though.

With all that being said, there are moments in the series which I find to be basically perfect and beautiful, like when Spike thinks about sleeping with Julia in ep. 26 before he goes to fight Vicious and when Faye watches the tape of her younger self, but moments like that are a little too few and far between. As you said, it's a lot of fun, but I wouldn't put it anywhere close to NGE. Which is why I'm writing this on an Eva forum. GO EVA!
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Postby BrikHaus » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:36 pm

View Original PostStan wrote:I noticed this time around how many episodes are 'filler' -- absolutely no character development or plot progression.

Joy Evangelion wrote:And regarding the episodes as filler, I couldn't agree with you more. Like, I remember when I was 13 I absolutely LOVED the Mad Pierrot episode and Mushroom Samba, and I still really like the Brain Scratch episode, but once they're over I don't really feel anything and I wouldn't have any desire to watch them if I weren't working my way through the series. A lot of burn outs I know do really love Mushroom Samba though.


I think this term "filler" gets thrown around a lot in regards to Cowboy Bebop, usually as a derogative, and unfairly so.

To say that the "filler" episodes offer no character development is absolutely untrue. Every episode of Bebop gives us glimpses into the personalities of the characters. You see Spike is just floating aimlessly through life, that Faye really wants to be a good person but can't trust others, etc. These hints are dropped in their dialogue, their interactions with each other, and how they handle themselves in the situations presented in the filler episodes. For example, Jet putting the gun in his dead ex-partner's hand, even though he was betrayed in the past. It's not an empty gesture. He is capable of forgiving even the harshest of betrayals.

In anime, character development too often gets associated with "a flashback with a huge plot twist revealing a character's mysterious past." Bebop doesn't really do that. It handles its characters in a far more sophisticated manner. The reveals are subtle and require patience and multiple rewatches. Good stuff is there in every episode, you just have to look for it.

I would argue that Bebop has no filler. It's a character driven show. If you don't like character driven shows, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But not every show has to have the characters hurtled forward, forced along a trajectory at the insistence of the story. Bebop is about the journey, about getting to know these people, not about the final destination.
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Postby Monk Ed » Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:44 pm

View Original PostBrikHaus wrote:Bebop is about the journey, about getting to know these people, not about the final destination.

I thought so too, and I feel that nothing illustrates this quite like how suddenly the ending happens: after a long series of disconnected stories you suddenly get the last three episodes dedicated to a conclusion. I remember when I watched the show, I got an impression of Cowboy Bebop as only tending to the plot when it had to, so by the time it was ending time it was like the show just said "Welp, time to finish that there plot". In that way it's like a lot of other shows I can name like Rune Soldier Louie, where you can draw a distinction between the last three episodes and the stuff before it which is mostly one-shots.
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Postby zlink64 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:16 am

I've noticed in bebop that while a lot of the episodes are not connected by plot they are by theme. By that I mean that usually the moral or lesson of one episode will be useful in the next or a idea or theme played with one episode will be used in the next. So the episode are connected like a chain, thematically. On top of that every few episodes there's usually a character that is a reflection of Spike that help us understand him and then you have to use that to try and figure why he does what he does.

For example: In episode 2 there's a lot of lines about making assumptions or very similar to that idea. And then the whole episode compares a character who is superficially the same as Spike but on the inside they are nothing alike. So this idea of not judging a book by it's cover or to look deeper is and not simply assume is introduced.

Then you take that lesson into ep 3 where Faye is introduced and we know she is not at all what she seems. I.E she is an old lady with a heart of gold.

Then in episode 4 the idea of animal vs man is played with. And the episode tries to make you think about the difference.
Then you take those thoughts into episode 5 when VIcious is introduced. And Vicous loves to call Spike a Beast and Vicious himself is beast like and a reflection of Spike.

They do this kind of thematic connection during the whole show.
It's almost like each episodes tries to subconsciously prep you for the next while trying to help you figure out Spike.

I did an anylsis of ep 1 like a year ago on youtube. Had very few views but the few who saw it seemed to have liked it alot. The show has a lot going on for it that people don't notice and I think ep 1 of that show is extremely well done as an introduction. My vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n138a21b_uA

Anyway I think cowboy bebop is not at all overrated...if anything it's underrated given how common it is for people to underestimate the show. Like when people say it's overrated, to me, it's the same as when people say eva is overrated. By that I mean there is a decent big chance that a lot of stuff went over their head so they fail to appreciate it. But I dunno maybe I'm just a fanboy & it is overrated lol.
hmmm

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Postby Gus Hanson » Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:43 pm

I'm having a hard time enjoying as well as feeling the urge to finish the rest of the series because of the English dub. Spike sounds too cocky while Faye at times sounds too bratty. The only saving grace would be Jet who is done right. Nothing against Watanabe's judgment of purely watching the series dubbed since in his eyes it's the "perfect" version but if I am going to have any shot at not throwing the DVD in the trash, I am going to have to watch it Japanese subbed.
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Postby gatotsu911 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:06 pm

I've yet to see a definitive source on Watanabe calling the dub "superior". It's good but not perfect. Steve Blum can sound cool like whoa but struggles to give Spike emotional depth, and Wendee Lee is Wendee Lee. No shame in switching to the Japanese version with Yamadera (the champion "sad cool man"), Hayashibara, Wakamoto, etc.
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Postby BrikHaus » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:56 pm

Watanabe never said the English dub was perfect or superior. I don't have access to his quote at the moment, but it was something akin to "quite good." For me, the English dub is the definitive version, but the Japanese cast are no slouches. You can't go wrong either way, because Bebop is an amazing series.
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Postby zlink64 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:59 pm

How fluent is Watanabe in english anyway. Just curious.
hmmm

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Postby TehDonutKing » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:41 pm

He used an interpreter when i saw him, but seemed to understand what the English speakers were saying relatively well.

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Postby Joy Evangelion » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:08 pm

View Original PostGus Hanson wrote: English dub


Do you usually watch anime with the English dub then? I'd find it pretty interesting if you're a dub guy but you don't care for Bebop's. I don't mean that in a snarky or mean way either, by the way.

My thoughts on the dub are basically the same as I said above, but I'd say I do like Ed's American VA much more because it's more cute and fun and silly.

While this threads being revisited, I'd also like to retract my earlier statements and apology to the series for calling some of the episodes filler. I've actually kinda felt bad about saying it for a few months now. I'd forced myself through a rewatch at the time and I was sort of burnt out on the series. I'd say save for three episodes I don't really care for(Ep. 2 where we meet Ein, the one where Jet returns to Ganymede, and Faye's flashback ep with the fat dude and the conniving doctor) each episode is very enjoyable and not just there to fill out 26 episodes. My bad, dudes.
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Postby Gus Hanson » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:20 pm

I usually watch the English dub version, that I do. Recently, i'm having trouble liking English dubs to shows I try to watch including Evangelion and Rahxephon. In the case of Eva, I wouldn't necessarily say it's Spike Spencer's fault, I put that more on Tiffany Grant however in the case of Rahxephon, I don't blame her because she's speaking more maturely due to the character she's given.

I don't have a problem with the new Viz dub of Sailor Moon for some reason and while I went through Onegai Teacher subbed, i'd rather much watch Twins dubbed rather than Teacher since I find it funnier that way. So i'd say it depends on what show i'm watching.
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Postby gatotsu911 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:29 pm

View Original Postzlink64 wrote:How fluent is Watanabe in english anyway. Just curious.

Not very. (If there's any evidence to contradict this, I haven't seen it.)
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Postby Ray » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:00 pm

He speaks a little. Jesuotaku said in one of her videos that he only answers questions in english if he finds them "interesting".
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Postby Gus Hanson » Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:13 pm

I saw episode 8 with the English dub on having decided to give it another chance and I gotta say that Steve Blum as Spike is improving indeed. Wendee Lee as Faye, not so much but I gather she'll get there. As for the next episode preview with Melissa Fahn as Ed, it was so fun to hear her rendition as well as listen to the characters having fun with the lines given to them. I gather that once Ed is onboard with the Bebop crew, things will definitely start getting even more interesting, eh.
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