Kaworu - The Origins

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

ShadowSonic wrote:But then there was no reason not to sned him to NERV other than to get him killed or perhaps it was to damage their defenses or something. And if it was to get him killed, why not do it themselves?


Keel couldn't watch his favorite cabana boy get killed before his eyes. ;;p But, honestly, my best guess as to why Seele bothers sending him to Nerv HQ to die? It could have to do with their scenario (that darned scenario and all of the plot contrivances it causes!) and how each of their "Angels" represents a trial that humanity (represented by the fux0red-up main cast) must overcome before they are finally eligible to become gods. And, of course, the old geezers at Seele don't want to get their hands dirty; they're content sitting in their dark little hologram chambers and pulling the world's strings.

Of coruse, there is always the idea that Anno really doesn't care about this stuff so much and didn't think it all through, which would explain the Eva-03 debacle...


"EVA-03 debacle"...?

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 00:44 GMT

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Postby ShadowSonic [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

Fans wanted to know who's soul was in Eva-03, so they asked one of the production staff at a convention. He told them off-hand that it was a spare Rei soul or something. This makes no sense, this started the idea in the fandom that Anno and co actually jsut expected us to believe these things and not to questionit too much since they hadn't plotted everything out perfectly.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 14:31 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

Talk about Occam's Razor ...
Simplest explanation could very well be that Anno and crew were just lazy ... interesting.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 15:24 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

ShadowSonic wrote:Fans wanted to know who's soul was in Eva-03, so they asked one of the production staff at a convention. He told them off-hand that it was a spare Rei soul or something. This makes no sense, this started the idea in the fandom that Anno and co actually jsut expected us to believe these things and not to questionit too much since they hadn't plotted everything out perfectly.


Is this story actually true? It might be worth knowing exactly which staff member answered the question.

From my perspective, just going by the default premise that "Anno & Co. was lazy" makes discussion of this series considerably less interesting. Most of the time, you can find an answer that makes sense if only you are observant/creative enough.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 16:59 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

Reichu wrote:Fuzzy Chickens is notorious around here for refusing to accept certain canon aspects of the show, such as the information unveiled in the "Director's Cuts".


Of all DC episodes, I only doubt 24', and that is because the new footage contradicts the old footage.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 22:24 GMT

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Postby NakedEYE666 [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

Reichu wrote:Is this story actually true? It might be worth knowing exactly which staff member answered the question.

From my perspective, just going by the default premise that "Anno & Co. was lazy" makes discussion of this series considerably less interesting. Most of the time, you can find an answer that makes sense if only you are observant/creative enough.


Also, some dude off of the production staff isn't exactly Anno himself. Just because some guy on the staff couldn't answer it that doesn't mean Anno didn't have a certain purpose for it.

But other than that, I basicaly agree with Reichu. Most works have a coherency that allows answers to arise even if they weren't intended to be there. Asking "did so and so detail of Evangelion actually have a meaning, or was it just thrown in and assumed that the fans would come up with something?" is the same as asking "Does line 3 of 'Desolation Row' mean anything, or does it not make sense?"

Frankly I don't think it matters at all... but it's atleast fun to discuss whether Anno (and Co., when applicable) intended this or that or if they just made it up without a point.

Originally posted on: 16-Sep-2004, 22:43 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:Of all DC episodes, I only doubt 24', and that is because the new footage contradicts the old footage.


How does Kaworu having the soul of Adam contradict anything? Or are you referring to something else?

NakedEYE666 wrote:But other than that, I basicaly agree with Reichu. Most works have a coherency that allows answers to arise even if they weren't intended to be there. Asking "did so and so detail of Evangelion actually have a meaning, or was it just thrown in and assumed that the fans would come up with something?" is the same as asking "Does line 3 of 'Desolation Row' mean anything, or does it not make sense?"


Most well-written works, you mean. I think if you analyze some shallow or crappy anime and you start probing into it, you're not going to get very far before the plot holes threaten to swallow you whole. Some things are constructed merely to entertain or be aesthetically pleasing, not to hold up to scrutiny or analysis.

But your idea about working having their own coherency is oftentimes true. I know this from personal experience; when I analyze parts of a story I'm working on, I find things that I hadn't even intended to be there. Sometimes the answers to the problems that I must solve while writing have been there in what I already wrote all along! I imagine the creative process must work in similarly insidious ways with other folks, as well... If you construct your creation with some degree of care, it will solve many problems on its own.

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 00:49 GMT

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Postby Hiead Gner [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

It really hard to tell...
Kaworu didn't really seem to be either human or angel...
Maybe he's a cross between the two...

Image

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 01:48 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Reichu wrote:How does Kaworu having the soul of Adam contradict anything? Or are you referring to something else?


I am referring to other things. For example, it's understandable for Kaworu to mistake Lillith for Adam, but not after SEELE explicitly tells him Adam's true location. It makes sense for Rei to wonder "What did Kaworu mean when he said we were the same? In what way are he and I alike?," but not after Kaworu tells her that they are Adam and Lillith in human form.

Strangely, all the other episodes work fine with their respective new clips.

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 01:54 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:I am referring to other things. For example, it's understandable for Kaworu to mistake Lillith for Adam, but not after SEELE explicitly tells him Adam's true location. It makes sense for Rei to wonder "What did Kaworu mean when he said we were the same? In what way are he and I alike?," but not after Kaworu tells her that they are Adam and Lillith in human form.

Strangely, all the other episodes work fine with their respective new clips.
Actually, I've wondered why, in #21', after the scene with Yui and Fuyutsuki at the levee, (in which Shinji is, of course, present), Fuyutsuki acts like he's never laid eyes on Shinji ("Why is a child here?!") in the following scene of Yui's Contact Experiment. The levee scene was added to the "Director's Cut", but it makes Fuytsuki's words in the next scene not make sense...

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 03:24 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

So, the New Production Cuts are not without their flaws... If Anno added them to increase the integrity of his work, it's odd that he didn't take into account such things as the new information conflicting with the old. This could have easily been corrected by making some slight tweaks to the preexisting scenes, no?

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 15:41 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Reichu wrote:So, the New Production Cuts are not without their flaws... If Anno added them to increase the integrity of his work, it's odd that he didn't take into account such things as the new information conflicting with the old. This could have easily been corrected by making some slight tweaks to the preexisting scenes, no?

Or it could be corrected by taking out the "errors" in the new ones Image .

Originally posted on: 17-Sep-2004, 21:23 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Knives wrote:Or it could be corrected by taking out the "errors" in the new ones Image .


What, like have Fuyutsuki somehow not know about Shinji for four whole years? Despite being one of his mother's primary confidants? That seems like a matter that would best be corrected in the original.

You can get rid of Seele telling Kaworu where Adam is supposed to be, and that fixes that problem.

But what about Kaworu's added line where he tells Rei quite specifically how they are alike? That's a valuable clue, much more helpful than Kaworu JUST telling Rei "You are the same as me" and later having Rei -- much like the audience -- wondering what the hell he meant. They could have potentially upgraded Rei's scene with additional info, but instead it is left in and becomes completely redundant as a result...

Originally posted on: 18-Sep-2004, 00:04 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Shin-seiki wrote:in #21', after the scene with Yui and Fuyutsuki at the levee, (in which Shinji is, of course, present), Fuyutsuki acts like he's never laid eyes on Shinji ("Why is a child here?!") in the following scene of Yui's Contact Experiment.


I disagree. He's wondering why the contact experiment's audience includes Shinji. I see no implication that he is unfamiliar with Shinji.

Originally posted on: 18-Sep-2004, 11:01 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:I disagree. He's wondering why the contact experiment's audience includes Shinji. I see no implication that he is unfamiliar with Shinji.
(from LTP, #21)
Fuyutsuki: Why is there a child here.

Akagi: This is Chief Ikari's son.

Fuyutsuki: Ikari. This is not a day school.
This is a very important day.

Yui: Sorry, Dr. Fuyutsuki. I brought him here.

Fuyutsuki: Yui-kun, it's your experiment today.

Yui: That's why. I want to show the promising future to my child.


Why does Naoko feel it's necessary to explain "This is Chief Ikari's son"?
If Fuyutsuki knows that this is Yui's big day, wouldn't it seem a little more natural for him to say "Why is this child here"?
Perhaps there are subtleties of the way he puts it in Japanese that are lost in translation...

Update
Oh great, I checked out the new translation on Resurrection DVD, #21', and they do have him saying "What is this[/u] child doing here?"...

As Emily Litela would say, Oh... Never mind! Image

Originally posted on: 18-Sep-2004, 11:37 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Whatever.

I think Dr. Akagi reminds Fuyutsuki who Shinji is because being the son of two people working on the project is the reason why he's there. In other words:

"Why is the child here?"

"Because he's the Commander's child"

See? Interpretation makes all things possible Image

Originally posted on: 18-Sep-2004, 18:12 GMT

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Postby CapsuleCorpJX [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Frankly, I think the Instrumentality project/ SEELE purposefully put Lilith's soul in a human body for instrumentation sake. I.E. they planned it all along. The soul of Lilith was needed to start instrumentality after the other angels were killed, and to store it they put it in a human hose.

But there is another purpose, a human with the soul of lilith could much more easily sync and comand the Evas, and defeat the angels.

As for why Lilith's soul is in Yui's clone, its probably just on the whim of Gendo, who misses his wife.

Sharp-kun wrote:In an attempt to breath some life into this forum, I'll repost an old question of mine:





The Origins of Kaworu Nagisa[/u] (Last revised on 17 Feb 2003)


There are 2 (as far as I'm aware) theories on the origins of Kaworu Nagisa. I'm curious to


Theory 1: Kaworu is an Angel Captured as an Embryo, with the Soul of Adam[/u]

Really only supported by:


This in the RCB's (usually vague) manner, suggests that Kaworu was captured by SEELE, who then presumable brainwashed him. This would appear to be at odds with the other theory:

Believing this, it is also puzzling how an angel would acquire Adam's soul. and what happened to its own soul, presuming it even had one, if not, further questions are raised.

Theory 2: Kaworu is a Human Clone, With the Soul of Adam[/u]


This theory (that I support) is that he is a human clone (of Kihl?), with the soul of Adam, created by SEELE, supported by:


“You're the same as me” – Self explanatory



This one states, that Adams soul was salvaged, which would presumably would have been by SEELE (Unless somehow, a soulless angel was to come across it, and somehow absorb it, which I don't really consider likely) The very way they say it seems to imply that they did it.


Rei, states that Kaworu was as human as she was, supporting his earlier statement that they are the same, and thus that Kaworu is indeed a clone, and not a captured angel. It could be argued that Kaworu and Rei are both referring to their souls, and not their body. I find this unlikely, as while both have the souls of a Source of Life (Adam and Lilith respectively), Kaworu refers to their physical form in their meeting, and never even refers to their souls, and I consider the souls of Adam and Lilith to be too different to believe that they were referring to them.

Also, in Ep 25', we see the EVA-Series use Kaworu dummy plugs, this also adds to the evidence that Kaworu is the same as Rei.

From the evidence in the series, it does appear to support that Kaworu is a clone, despite what the RCB says. I'm curious to see what others think on the matter. Image



Aside: If Kaworu is the same as Rei, as suggested, then the question of how he was actually created can get interesting. The most intriguing and plausible explanation for Rei's creation was posted by MDWigs a while back:



This also ties into the “what was really going on in Antarctica?” question. Adam had bindings similar to the Eva's on him, which we know to be non-biological, there was a 14 year old girl present (Why? On a top secret research mission Image). Could, someone of tried a contact experiment with Adam, and ended up creating Kaworu? Would a similar thing to what happened with Lilith even work with Adam?

Opinions?


Originally posted on: 24-Dec-2004, 06:21 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Rei was Gendo's little pet project, not Seele's. He intended to use personal influence over Lilith's soul to control Instrumentality. For that, Seele intended to use the Spear of Longinus, or facsimiles thereof.

Originally posted on: 24-Dec-2004, 06:34 GMT

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Postby Brendan Brown [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Reichu wrote:Is this story actually true? It might be worth knowing exactly which staff member answered the question.


NakedEYE666 wrote:Some dude off of the production staff isn't exactly Anno himself. Just because some guy on the staff couldn't answer it that doesn't mean Anno didn't have a certain purpose for it.


If Shadowsonic and I are on the same page, he's probably referring to a question answered by Kazuya Tsurumaki--Anno's right hand man and director of 25' not exactly a cell-painter. Lemme see if I can dig up the info on my harddrive:

Ah HA! Straight from the mouth of Mr. Carl Gustav-Horn himself from an article on FLCL which includes a summary of Tsurumaki's appearance at Otacon2001...
At his panel, Tsurumaki gamely answered questions on Evangelion as specific as whose soul was in the Eva Unit-03 ("I'm not sure, but I think it may have been the first clone of Rei Ayanami")


Hope this helps, Reichu.

Originally posted on: 24-Dec-2004, 13:02 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:21 am

Hmm, yeah, I'm sure Toji would have had a fun time synchronzing with THAT...

Originally posted on: 24-Dec-2004, 14:55 GMT


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