Kaworu - The Origins

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:17 am

thewayneiac wrote:This was on the last page and cried out for bumping.


Yeah, but it has a totally obsolete Origins of EVA-01 theory by yours truly! OH THE HUMANITY!!! You should have let it simply die. Image

And so this marks the approximate 1-year anniversary of my arrival to this happy little forum... If all goes as planned, I'll still be here in July of 2006 -- and hopefully the rest of you will be as well, or at least those participating in the Commentary. (Which really WILL go on, I promise. Backing up my damn hard drive is taking longer than I thought.)

Washu-chan wrote:Kaworu is Great....


Just a friendly note, Gus, these are the sorts of posts you might want to make an effort to avoid... Post count isn't everything, you know.

Originally posted on: 20-Jul-2004, 22:22 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:17 am

Its not for my post count I just wanna make a comment so people know Im listening. I hate it when I make a thread and it gets maybe 50 views and no replies. I understand not everyone can be that way but Thats how I am.

Originally posted on: 21-Jul-2004, 03:36 GMT

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Postby Brigitanastasia [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:17 am

Wouldn't Tabris coming into contact with Adam cause 3rd Impact?

Originally posted on: 22-Aug-2004, 20:23 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

The only things we know for sure about Kaworu's origins are these:

1) He was born on the same day as Second Impact. So if he was created via normal human conception, he'd have to have been conceived 9 months earlier, when Adam was still buried under ice and no one knew about him. Since he clearly has some Angel in him, he must not have been conceived - he'd have to have been created in full baby form at least.

2) Adam, the "cornerstone" of NERV's and SEELE's work since Second Impact, was delivered to NERV from Germany. The Evas that are under SEELE's control use Kaworu dummy plugs, meaning there must be a tank full of Kaworu clones somewhere, probably in or near SEELE's HQ in Germany.

It seems clear to me that SEELE created Kaworu (deliberately or otherwise) from Adam, made a bunch of clones of him, kept him in Germany, and meant to use him for their own Third Impact scenario. That's a good enough story for me.

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 07:37 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:and meant to use him for their own Third Impact scenario. That's a good enough story for me.

"We will not use Adam or the Angels"


Kaworu (the "real" one) had no place in their plans. They sent him to die.

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 15:07 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Sharp-kun wrote:Kaworu (the "real" one) had no place in their plans. They sent him to die.


What do you mean, "the 'real' one"? "Real" as opposed to what?

This recalls a question I've had for some time... According to the scenario and all, Kaworu's death is the last thing that had to happen in order for 3I (and, ergo, Instrumentality) to occur. Seele had Kaworu, so they could control the timing of his death. Yet it is also apparent from Seele's gripings about the thirteen harpies being "fewer than planned" that they didn't have enough time to do everything that they wanted... Couldn't everything have gone their way if they just waited a little longer to send Kaworu? Was there another timing factor in play that I'm completely unaware of?

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 16:06 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Reichu wrote:What do you mean, "the 'real' one"? "Real" as opposed to what?

"Real" as in he had a soul, as opposed to the tanked ones.

Reichu wrote:This recalls a question I've had for some time... According to the scenario and all, Kaworu's death is the last thing that had to happen in order for 3I (and, ergo, Instrumentality) to occur. Seele had Kaworu, so they could control the timing of his death. Yet it is also apparent from Seele's gripings about the thirteen harpies being "fewer than planned" that they didn't have enough time to do everything that they wanted... Couldn't everything have gone their way if they just waited a little longer to send Kaworu? Was there another timing factor in play that I'm completely unaware of?

The all powerful "schedule" perhaps?

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 16:08 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

What is the basis of the theory that Adam's soul is in Kaworu?

Yet it is also apparent from Seele's gripings about the thirteen harpies being "fewer than planned" that they didn't have enough time to do everything that they wanted...


I thought there were nine whale heads.

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 16:18 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Sharp-kun wrote:"Real" as in he had a soul, as opposed to the tanked ones.


Now here's something that just popped into my mind... Why do we even assume that there was a tank full of Kaworu clones in the first place? Considering we don't even really know what the hell Ritsuko was babbling about in #23 (with regards to something that was "about to become the core of the dummy system", which may or may not have been a bunch of inanely giggling clones)... Is it possible that the Kaworu dummy plugs are simply a digitized personality pattern, with no naked clone-boys involved?

The all powerful "schedule" perhaps?


But remember... even the all-powerful "schedule" is not beyond Seele's ability to rewrite. Image

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 16:24 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Reichu wrote:Now here's something that just popped into my mind... Why do we even assume that there was a tank full of Kaworu clones in the first place? Considering we don't even really know what the hell Ritsuko was babbling about in #23 (with regards to something that was "about to become the core of the dummy system", which may or may not have been a bunch of inanely giggling clones)... Is it possible that the Kaworu dummy plugs are simply a digitized personality pattern, with no naked clone-boys involved?

Its possible, but we have no way of knowing. Kaworu says he is the same as Rei, and judging by everything we see, he is. He has the soul of a SoL, has the weird looks and has his own plugs. As Rei had a tank, I don't see why he didn't.

Reichu wrote:But remember... even the all-powerful "schedule" is not beyond Seele's ability to rewrite. Image

True, but maybe that was a key date that they couldn't?

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 16:32 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Ark wrote:What is the basis of the theory that Adam's soul is in Kaworu?


Heh, "theory"? We're told it straight-out.

Seele : But our hopes are materializing...

Seele : In Lilith, progenitor of humanity - the false successors from
the Black Moon...

Seele : And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from
the lost White Moon.

Seele : And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...

Seele : But whose revived body is already inside Ikari.


I thought there were nine whale heads.


Nine were ready by the time of EoE. Seele had been planning for twelve. Which, as Shin-seiki and I noticed in another thread, wouldn't really have worked out in the end...

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 16:32 GMT

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Postby Crazy Penguin [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Seele couldn't wait any longer, their ceremonial gowns had to be returned to the costume shop by Tuesday.

Originally posted on: 09-Sep-2004, 23:25 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Sharp-kun wrote:Kaworu (the "real" one) had no place in their plans. They sent him to die.


Why send him to NERV to die when they could just put a bullet in his brain themselves? Or leave him in the Antarctic to die? They wanted him to do something at NERV, something that would further their Third Impact scheme. Maybe (as someone else suggested) they just sent the little *** over so that NERV could get its 15th Angel kill more easily and SEELE's plans wouldn't get fuxx0red over by an Uber-Angel destroying NERV.

what the hell Ritsuko was babbling about


Hey, that's MY catchphrase!

We're told it straight-out


We're also told straight-out that the Crucified Marshmallow Man is Adam. That doesn't really make it true...

Originally posted on: 10-Sep-2004, 04:52 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:We're also told straight-out that the Crucified Marshmallow Man is Adam. That doesn't really make it true...


The difference is that, later on in the series, it becomes very obvious that the Adam/Lilith mixup was a case of Gainax pulling our leg for no readily apparent reason, whereas nothing in the series denies the point about Kaworu containing Adam's soul. It fits, and, if anything, the rest of the series simply supports the notion.

Originally posted on: 10-Sep-2004, 05:07 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 am

very obvious


Yeah, so obvious that the n00bs only have to watch ep24 once to figure it out Image

a case of Gainax pulling our leg for no readily apparent reason


That seems to happen disturbingly often...

Funny thing is, Kaworu having Adam's soul doesn't really help explain how he got inside Uber Rei. Although I suppose having Adam's soul somewhere other than his body does help explain why Gendo doesn't go around projecting AT Fields with his Adam-hand... "Hey Ritsuko, look what I can do! Cool, eh?" "Oh wow Gen-chan, you're so Uber Pimpin'! Take me now!"

Originally posted on: 10-Sep-2004, 05:25 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:19 am

I read/skimmed the first few posts ... and read/skimmed the last few ... I'll get around to reading the rest later ...

The difference is that, later on in the series, it becomes very obvious that the Adam/Lilith mixup was a case of Gainax pulling our leg for no readily apparent reason

Pulling our leg despite having already told us that the embryo was Adam? You're suggesting then that Gainax expected us to believe the embryo had grown to that size or something?

Funny thing is, Kaworu having Adam's soul doesn't really help explain how he got inside Uber Rei. Although I suppose having Adam's soul somewhere other than his body does help explain why Gendo doesn't go around projecting AT Fields with his Adam-hand... "Hey Ritsuko, look what I can do! Cool, eh?" "Oh wow Gen-chan, you're so Uber Pimpin'! Take me now!"

Heh ... Gendo with Uber-AT field action would be awesome. And it almost looks like I'm not entirely alone in not quite believing that Kaworu contains Adam's soul — yay Image !

>EDIT
Oh ... I wanted to add ... I haven't read the rest, so I'm not sure if this has been suggested, but has anyone suggested the possibility that Kaworu is a clone of Gendo? I think that would fit rather well ...
>EDIT again
... because I have yet to see episode 24 (DC) ... but someone posted something about Kaworu saying "Is he like me?" in regards to Gendo — or "Are he and I alike?" ... something like that.

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 09:13 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:19 am

Knives wrote:Heh ... Gendo with Uber-AT field action would be awesome. And it almost looks like I'm not entirely alone in not quite believing that Kaworu contains Adam's soul — yay Image !


Fuzzy Chickens is notorious around here for refusing to accept certain canon aspects of the show, such as the information unveiled in the "Director's Cuts". He's been behaving himself lately, but that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty pointless to get into a debate with him...

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 12:23 GMT

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Postby ShadowSonic [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

Well, I thought it was obvious that Kaoru was to Adam what Rei is to Lillith: A human-created container for the greater being's soul. Either he was created as a by-product of the 2I or SEELE removed Adam's soul from the embryo to keep it from growing too much (but still some) and put it in Kaoru to control it.

When Shinji killed Kaoru his soul went back to Adam, now in Gendo's hand. But since he was either a part of Gendo now or becuase he didn't have an S2 he still stayed as an embryo.

As for SEELE's use for him, maybe since he was created by them they felt he was "mankind's creation" and not a true angel? That could be their reasoning for sending him to NERV. Maybe since they thought Lillith's soul was still in Lillith that if Kaoru fused with it their 3I would happen?

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 21:02 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

ShadowSonic wrote:When Shinji killed Kaoru his soul went back to Adam


Nuh-uh! Need I repeat this point again: In NGE, as long as part of one's body remains, the soul will linger within. After all, the body -- dead or not -- only retains its shape if there is a soul present. Kaworu's head was still intact, ergo, Gendou would just need to go through a little extra trouble to have all of the ingredients he needed for his plans.

As for SEELE's use for him, maybe since he was created by them they felt he was "mankind's creation" and not a true angel?


He was certainly an "Angel" in their scenario, otherwise they would not have called him the 17th.

Maybe since they thought Lillith's soul was still in Lillith that if Kaoru fused with it their 3I would happen?


In the series, Seele tells us that "we will not use Adam or the Angels" to enact 3I.

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 22:20 GMT

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Postby ShadowSonic [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:20 am

But then there was no reason not to sned him to NERV other than to get him killed or perhaps it was to damage their defenses or something. And if it was to get him killed, why not do it themselves?

Of coruse, there is always the idea that Anno really doesn't care about this stuff so much and didn't think it all through, which would explain the Eva-03 debacle...

Originally posted on: 15-Sep-2004, 23:29 GMT


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