Kaworu - The Origins

[saiyajin prince [ANF]]

Erm, anyway, when I said that Kaworu might have been created from this theoretical entity Tabris (that is, an angel we never see in the anime) the same way that Shogouki and Rei were created from Lilith

Rei wasn't created from Lillith, just have her soul....

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 01:20 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Rei wasn't created from Lillith, just have her soul....

Do we really know that one way or the other?

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 02:19 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

Do we really know that one way or the other?

Yes we do, from the Red Cross Book

[Rei Ayanami]
The First Children, and dedicated pilot of Eva-00. A young girl who apparently lacks emotions. Her body was created from the salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva, and numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another. The present Rei is the third. The first was killed by Dr. Naoko Akagi, and the second died in battle against the 16th Angel. Although the personalities of these three Rei differ from one another, this is due to environmental factors. Their soul is one and the same, and it appears to have been that of Lilith. At the final stage of the Instrumentality Project, Rei betrayed Gendou, returned to Lilith of her own judgment and entrusted the future to Gendou's son -- Shinji Ikari. Birth date: unknown

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 02:27 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

The EoE Theatrical Program doesn't say one way or the other where Rei's =biomass= originally came from, though. Shogouki shows that, with Lilith, you can create entities using her biomass (i.e., her body) that are genetically different from Lilith herself.

Although people go around saying that "Oh, right... EVA-01 is from Lilith and the rest are from Adam", I never really thought myself that things were that simple. The Evas are clearly (clearly as far as =I= can tell, anyway) genetically unique both from one another (except for those bloody-MPs-who-all-look-the-same) and from either Adam or Lilith. Their genomes are Lilim creations -- they simply used Adam, presumably, as the blueprint and changed things around as they saw fit. (And, in the case of EVA-02 and ESPECIALLY the MP's, this was evidently *quite a bit*.) Ergo, Shogouki can be, in a sense, from both Adam =and= Lilith -- her genetic structure may be based in part on both of them (though, given the fact that she is structurally homologous with the other Evas, she is likely "as Adam" as any other Eva is), although, in the end, her biomass came from Lilith's body (more or less -- Sho's obviously larger than Lilith's legs).

That's all my interpretation, anyway. For whatever little it's worth.

However, that's going WAY off subject, but hopefully it clears a few misinterpretations of my ideas up. (Probably doesn't, though. ::proceeds to bash head in nearest wall Zerogouki-style::)

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 02:41 GMT

[Kaworu_Asuka [ANF]]

Posted by Reichu:

Ergo, Kaworu (I really think he should've had German name -- he was sent from Germany, after all -- maybe, erm... Fritz)

*Kaworu growls and tugs on his leash trying to get at Reichu*

*Pets Kaworu* Down bishie. Good bishie. *gives him bishie treat* Sorry about that.

As for the question, I asked him directly, Kaworu...if you will.

Kaworu: "Well, when a mommy angel and a daddy angel really love each other..." (rest of explaination CENSORED to protect innocent virgin ears)


This post brought to you by sugar...ah sugar...the source of hyperness everywhere.

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 05:29 GMT

[HimuraProns [ANF]]

*Kaworu growls and tugs on his leash trying to get at Reichu*

*Pets Kaworu* Down bishie. Good bishie. *gives him bishie treat* Sorry about that.

As for the question, I asked him directly, Kaworu...if you will.

Kaworu: "Well, when a mommy angel and a daddy angel really love each other..." (rest of explaination CENSORED to protect innocent virgin ears)


This post brought to you by sugar...ah sugar...the source of hyperness everywhere.

When addam and lillith

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 05:57 GMT

[Pepperidge [ANF]]

According to MD Wig's brilliant theory, Rei was created when Eva-01 was disconnected from Lilith with Yui inside. Yui's soul got absorbed into the Eva, and everything else was all jumbled up inside Lilith. When they tried to retrieve Yui, they wound up with a bunch of clones created from Lilith's biomass, one of which just happened to snatch Lilith's soul instead of Yui's.

Yui degraded to LCL and therefore couldn't have had any actual "remains".

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 06:24 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Kaworu_Asuka: I dunno... I think "Fritz" fits Kaworu's personality rather well. ;;P Really, how MUCH sense does it make for a scary cybernetic German guy to name his little 14-year-old clone-boy something Japanese? Not much, far as I can tell...

"I am Kaworu. Nagisa Kaworu. My real name is actually German, but that's classified information. I speak pretty good Japanese, don't I?"

Erm... Nevermind. It's late.

Pepperidge: Uh-oh... Now you're saying "biomass", too. ;;>

I never saw that 'Wigs theory in whole, though I saw bits and pieces of it somewhere in the past and came to a few conclusions of my own that ended up blatantly coinciding with some of the stuff he =just= posted at AnimeBoards. :: Will I ever have any bizarre theories I can claim as my own and have people fawn over me and say how brilliant I am? :bawling: Hmm, on second thought, that sounds awfully ghastly... But, yes, 'Wigs-sama does deserve all the credit he gets, methinks.

Let's argue some more about the clouded origins of Kaworu-kun, ne?

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 07:45 GMT

[Kaworu_Asuka [ANF]]

Reichu - look, I wasn't really like trying to degrade the thread or anything, I was just being hyper and weird. You don't have to get all uppity about it - IT WAS A JOKE. Lighten up. Last I remember, this was a PUBLIC message board and people could post what they wanted - you don't like it, don't read it!

If you want my honest opinion - I say I don't know, I don't care. We never find out, it's one of those unsolved mysteries. Besides, we've beaten this issue to death how many times before? Maybe if you weren't so lazy you'd go back a couple pages and FIND the thread about this that I'm sure someone posted last week. Hence the reason I hardly come around anymore, nearly all the topics are repeats. Sorry for being myself!

Originally posted on: 30-Jul-2003, 20:30 GMT

[saiyajin prince [ANF]]

The EoE Theatrical Program doesn't say one way or the other where Rei's =biomass= originally came from, though. Shogouki shows that, with Lilith, you can create entities using her biomass (i.e., her body) that are genetically different from Lilith herself.

What do you mean by "one way or the other"

More evidence apart from the EoE program, that Rei came from Yui is that Rei can pilot Eva01, which conatains the soul of Yui. Rei is 100% human and has no Angel DNA what soever. I don't see what more evidence you need, the Program books is about the most cannon you can get.:dodgy:

Although people go around saying that "Oh, right... EVA-01 is from Lilith and the rest are from Adam", I never really thought myself that things were that simple. The Evas are clearly (clearly as far as =I= can tell, anyway) genetically unique both from one another (except for those bloody-MPs-who-all-look-the-same) and from either Adam or Lilith. Their genomes are Lilim creations -- they simply used Adam, presumably, as the blueprint and changed things around as they saw fit. (And, in the case of EVA-02 and ESPECIALLY the MP's, this was evidently *quite a bit*.) Ergo, Shogouki can be, in a sense, from both Adam =and= Lilith -- her genetic structure may be based in part on both of them (though, given the fact that she is structurally homologous with the other Evas, she is likely "as Adam" as any other Eva is), although, in the end, her biomass came from Lilith's body (more or less -- Sho's obviously larger than Lilith's legs).

I don't see how it is possible for Shogouki, Eva 01 if I'm correct could be made with both Adam and Lillith. I don't even think, NERV was in possesion of Adam when Eva01 was made and also another example is that Eva01 was the only Eva that could've been used to initiate 3I, solely because she was the only offspring of Lillith.

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 06:25 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

Although people go around saying that "Oh, right... EVA-01 is from Lilith and the rest are from Adam", I never really thought myself that things were that simple. The Evas are clearly (clearly as far as =I= can tell, anyway) genetically unique both from one another (except for those bloody-MPs-who-all-look-the-same) and from either Adam or Lilith. Their genomes are Lilim creations -- they simply used Adam, presumably, as the blueprint and changed things around as they saw fit. (And, in the case of EVA-02 and ESPECIALLY the MP's, this was evidently *quite a bit*.) Ergo, Shogouki can be, in a sense, from both Adam =and= Lilith -- her genetic structure may be based in part on both of them (though, given the fact that she is structurally homologous with the other Evas, she is likely "as Adam" as any other Eva is), although, in the end, her biomass came from Lilith's body (more or less -- Sho's obviously larger than Lilith's legs).

I wouldn't say the necessarilly changed the genome that much.

With EVA-00 I would say they made as little as possible. Its a prototype.

With EVA-01, most likely a straight clone of Lilith, for her to be used in Instrumentality would presumably require a close match. I don't think they'd use some of Adam in her (aside from the mild possibility of an Adam/Lilith combo causing 3rd Impact ), they might have had Adam at that point, but I feel that it would have destroyed the purpose of EVA-01, to introduce Adam to it. I've considered 01 a test, to see how well a Lilith clone worked, Adam would ruin that.

With EVA-02 - 04, same thing, straight clone of Adam, with a few alterations, whether they be due to anomalies in growth, or intent.

The EVA-Series are clearly modified, but again are Adam at a fundamental level, other wise 3rd Impact wouldn't have happened.

As for the structural similarities, Adam and Lilith are similar beings, and are thought to have once been one. Its not that far fetched that they would look like one another.

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 12:07 GMT

[HimuraProns [ANF]]

What if Kawrou was a human with Adam implanted into him, not a clone but just a regular human? Or could it be posible Rei was the real angel and kawrou was just some sort of Advanced geneticly altered human?

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 14:25 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I don't see how it is possible for Shogouki, Eva 01 if I'm correct could be made with both Adam and Lillith. I don't even think, NERV was in possesion of Adam when Eva01 was made...

Well, according to my whacky little idea, Sho is, genetically, Adam and who-knows-what-else, and GEHIRN used Mysterious Occult Technology (TM) to turn Lilith's legs into the blob of flesh that would eventually be EVA-01. Genes from one source, biomass from the other, so Shogouki has two "parents" in that sense. At least, if my whacky little idea has any credibility at all, which you folks seem to think it doesn't. ::crawls under her desk and sobs melodramatically::

As for your second point... I can't remember precisely when NERV "reacquired" the Adam embryo from Antarctica (I need to watch the series again, GWARRR), but they had plenty of chances to take samples from Addy-boy while the Katsuragi Team was studying him. Recall that Gendou skipped out before Second Impact occured, and he could have taken some Adam samples with him, which would have been used for Project E afterwards.

As for the structural similarities, Adam and Lilith are similar beings, and are thought to have once been one.

I think I recall hearing this idea somewhere before, though is there anything that really supports it? Despite what's been said about "Lilith being one source of life and Adam another", or something to that effect, I, personally, like the idea that Adam arose from Lilith at some time or another... [Didn't Misato imply this at some point in 25'?] But that's beside the point.

I wouldn't say the necessarilly changed the genome that much...

Still, I do think that the Evas -- including good ol' Sho -- form an inclusive group and are similar to each other in ways that they are unique from both Adam and Lilith. [Well... Those MPs REALLY put stress on this idea, but if you lop their heads off they're Eva enough. ::p] The Lilim managed to create a unique type of entity, in a sense. Despite the talk about Shogouki being a "clone" of Lilith -- I like the translation "offspring" better [though I never =did= look at the original Japanese there and make my own "educated" decision as to which translation is better...] -- I really do NOT see the resemblance, myself.

[I couldn't get a table to look right, so we're going to have to do WITHOUT conveniently-matching rows:]

==LILITH & SHOGOUKI: A COMPARISON==

LILITH

(A) white, vaguely bioluminescent skin
(B) black pits with glowing red pupils for eyes
(C) eyes face forward
(D) "marshmallowy" composure
(E) very little body definition
(F) uses LCL for blood
(G) no core (so it would seem, anyway)

SHOGOUKI

(A) chocolate-brown skin with no special properties
(B) emerald-green eyes (both iris and schlera)
(C) eyes located more on the sides of the head
(D) "traditional" composure (i.e., organic and human-like)
(E) defined body features (musculature, etc.)
(F) LCL produced inside core only / red blood
(G) core formed to contain soul of Ikari Yui

And... stuff like that.

Shogouki clearly demonstrates traditionally "Evangelion" features while showing no physical similarities to Lilith (other than being humanoid and roughly the same size). Given the little known about Evas, common traits are difficult to come up with, but they nonetheless include:

(1) Eyes positioned more on the sides of the head than facing forward as in humans and Lilith* (in Evas with an even number of eyes only)
(2) Three auxillary pupils (displayed by EVA-01, EVA-02, and EVA-03; presumably a common trait)
(3) Bioluminescent eyes (when the Evas get PO'd, anyway ;;D)
(4) Four nostrils (known for Evas 01~04)
(5) Dark skin (chocolate-brown for EVA-01, blue-grey for EVA-02, reddish-brown for EVA-03, and fleshy brown for EVA-00)
(6) Concentric patterning on the face (known for EVA-01 and EVA-02)

Such shared attributes -- which may have originally come from Adam, though this is impossible to determine -- lend credence to my notion of Evas as a "monophyletic" group (scientific jargon is fun ;;p). That is, as I said before, the Evas are a unique type of entity -- albeit an artificial one -- that have more in common with each other than with anything else in the NGE universe. That is, unless you think (A) that Adam is like an Eva in all of the regards listed above (which, again, is impossible to determine based on the sole two depictions of his "adult" form in the anime**) and (B) that Lilith was a slim, tanned, muscular dame before she inexplicably turned into a Stay-Puft Marshmallow Woman with ventrally-oriented eyes. As far as I can tell, Shogouki *cannot* be Lilith's "clone", unless "clone" has some strange meaning I'm not currently aware of...

Of course, none of this has ANYTHING to do with Kaworu's origins, though I fancy any opportunity to babble prolifically about my beloved Evas. My apologies for taking this so off-topic. ::p

* While her original face is never seen, the mask's coverage seems to imply that her eyes do not have an Evangelion-style placement.

** ...being the hikari no kyojin form (seen in the intro, episode 12, and, partially, in 21') and the "Antarctic excavation" pic seen in 23' and the expanded "Renewal" intro. Quite annoyingly, the two depictions are inconsistent with one another.

[Edit: Getting Lil/Sho comparison to look right; typos; random other changes; w00t, I have a sig now!]

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 17:10 GMT

[Pepperidge [ANF]]

But "biomass" is a fun word!

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 18:32 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

Well, according to my whacky little idea, Sho is, genetically, Adam and who-knows-what-else, and GEHIRN used Mysterious Occult Technology (TM) to turn Lilith's legs into the blob of flesh that would eventually be EVA-01. Genes from one source, biomass from the other, so Shogouki has two "parents" in that sense. At least, if my whacky little idea has any credibility at all, which you folks seem to think it doesn't. ::crawls under her desk and sobs melodramatically::

Unlikely, as I think that would screw up 3rd Impact. Also SEELE describe her as a clone, if she wasn't genetically Lilith, I don't think they would have said that.

As for your second point... I can't remember precisely when NERV "reacquired" the Adam embryo from Antarctica (I need to watch the series again, GWARRR), but they had plenty of chances to take samples from Addy-boy while the Katsuragi Team was studying him. Recall that Gendou skipped out before Second Impact occured, and he could have taken some Adam samples with him, which would have been used for Project E afterwards.

They definatly had samples, as Gendo had the embryo before the EVA-Series were built.

I think I recall hearing this idea somewhere before, though is there anything that really supports it?

Not really, but it fits nicely. You just have to remember that its almost entirely based on the fact that its nice.

Despite what's been said about "Lilith being one source of life and Adam another", or something to that effect, I, personally, like the idea that Adam arose from Lilith at some time or another... [Didn't Misato imply this at some point in 25'?] But that's beside the point.

No. Adam and Lilith are 2 seperate beings. Neither gave birth to the other. Manga Entertainment mistranslated a scene in 25' on this. It has been confirmed with Gainax that Manga's translation is false.

the talk about Shogouki being a "clone" of Lilith -- I like the translation "offspring" better [though I never =did= look at the original Japanese there and make my own "educated" decision as to which translation is better...] -- I really do NOT see the resemblance, myself.

[I couldn't get a table to look right, so we're going to have to do WITHOUT conveniently-matching rows:]

==LILITH & SHOGOUKI: A COMPARISON==

LILITH

(A) white, vaguely bioluminescent skin
(B) black pits with glowing red pupils for eyes
(C) eyes face forward
(D) "marshmallowy" composure
(E) very little body definition
(F) uses LCL for blood
(G) no core (so it would seem, anyway)

SHOGOUKI

(A) chocolate-brown skin with no special properties
(B) emerald-green eyes (both iris and schlera)
(C) eyes located more on the sides of the head
(D) "traditional" composure (i.e., organic and human-like)
(E) defined body features (musculature, etc.)
(F) LCL produced inside core only / red blood
(G) core formed to contain soul of Ikari Yui

And... stuff like that.

Shogouki clearly demonstrates traditionally "Evangelion" features while showing no physical similarities to Lilith (other than being humanoid and roughly the same size). Given the little known about Evas, common traits are difficult to come up with, but they nonetheless include:

(1) Eyes positioned more on the sides of the head than facing forward as in humans and Lilith* (in Evas with an even number of eyes only)
(2) Three auxillary pupils (displayed by EVA-01, EVA-02, and EVA-03; presumably a common trait)
(3) Bioluminescent eyes (when the Evas get PO'd, anyway ;;D)
(4) Four nostrils (known for Evas 01~04)
(5) Dark skin (chocolate-brown for EVA-01, blue-grey for EVA-02, reddish-brown for EVA-03, and fleshy brown for EVA-00)
(6) Concentric patterning on the face (known for EVA-01 and EVA-02)

Such shared attributes -- which may have originally come from Adam, though this is impossible to determine -- lend credence to my notion of Evas as a "monophyletic" group (scientific jargon is fun ;;p). That is, as I said before, the Evas are a unique type of entity -- albeit an artificial one -- that have more in common with each other than with anything else in the NGE universe. That is, unless you think (A) that Adam is like an Eva in all of the regards listed above (which, again, is impossible to determine based on the sole two depictions of his "adult" form in the anime**) and (B) that Lilith was a slim, tanned, muscular dame before she inexplicably turned into a Stay-Puft Marshmallow Woman with ventrally-oriented eyes, Shogouki *cannot* be Lilith's "clone". (Unless "clone" has some strange meaning I'm not currently aware of...)

Of course, none of this has ANYTHING to do with Kaworu's origins, though I fancy any opportunity to babble prolifically about my beloved Evas. My apologies for taking this so off-topic. ::p

* While her original face is never seen, the mask's coverage seems to imply that her eyes do not have an Evangelion-style placement.

If she wasn't a clone would Instrumentality work? I doubt it.

As for the resemblance, remember all we really see of Lilith is her on a cross, with no soul. We have seen that the soul can change physical appearance (just see Rei and Kaworu).

Also consider that 01 has all the armour on it. That can't be good for the skin

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 18:42 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Nee~, Sharp-kun, was it really necessary to quote =that= much of my post?

The nitty-picky technicalities of Third Impact and Instrumentality aside... Come on, isn't this whole "clone" idea just a wee bit farfetched? [Look at those lists I made!] Really, what do a bunch of old geezers who habitually ogle naked 14-year-old boys (manga, vol. 7 ;;D) know? (Good thing to know about Manga's translation, though.) Perhaps the qualification of being Lilith's "flesh daughter" is good enough. ;;p

As for the resemblance, remember all we really see of Lilith is her on a cross, with no soul. We have seen that the soul can change physical appearance (just see Rei and Kaworu).

Well, actually, Lilith seems to have looked exactly the same before she lost her soul to a certain little blue-haired wenc-- errrrr, a certain little blue-haired... bishoujo... yeah, that's it... For a depiction of Lil dating before Rei's creation, check out the mind-warping panning shot of Lilith and Shogouki still connected from episode 23' and the "Renewal" opening. I can't quite make out what's going on with Lilith's right arm in the pic, but, otherwise, she definitely seems to be the same ol' Marshmallow Woman we know and love [albeit having an Eva growing out of her pelvis]. The picture seems to be before Yui's Contact Experiment, even, as Shogouki has not manifested a core yet [but, then again, Sadamoto has a funny habit of not portraying his naked Shogouki with a core, so maybe this is just another instance of Gainax Artists Being Inconsistent And Unconvincing When It Comes To Matters Of Nude Evas].

Also consider that 01 has all the armour on it. That can't be good for the skin

Well, I'm not sure what the ARMOR has to do with anything, but, aye... Amen to that. ::wonders if the Evas ever get skin rashes from that awful stuff::

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 19:05 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

Come on, isn't this whole "clone" idea just a wee bit farfetched?

SEELE say she's a clone. Its stated.

Well, I'm not sure what the ARMOR has to do with anything, but, aye...

Cover your skin with armour, and stick electrode etc into it. See what happens after 10+ years.

Originally posted on: 31-Jul-2003, 19:12 GMT

[saiyajin prince [ANF]]

Well, according to my whacky little idea, Sho is, genetically, Adam and who-knows-what-else, and GEHIRN used Mysterious Occult Technology (TM) to turn Lilith's legs into the blob of flesh that would eventually be EVA-01. Genes from one source, biomass from the other, so Shogouki has two "parents" in that sense. At least, if my whacky little idea has any credibility at all, which you folks seem to think it doesn't. ::crawls under her desk and sobs melodramatically::

This is just mere speculation since there's nothing about this mentioned in the show. We see that, more than one case that Eva01 was made from Lillith. Rtisuko, SEELE, Gendou, and the Director's Cut. Again, by saying that Eva01 was somewhat made with Adam's genomes defests the whole purpose of why Eva01 was so important to Gendou, Instrumentality, in order to get back his wife.

I think I recall hearing this idea somewhere before, though is there anything that really supports it? Despite what's been said about "Lilith being one source of life and Adam another", or something to that effect, I, personally, like the idea that Adam arose from Lilith at some time or another... [Didn't Misato imply this at some point in 25'?] But that's beside the point.

Even so, Instrumentality aside...If Adam and Lillith were combined, it would become a god, so if Eva01 was made from both sources of like, she was also be a godlike entity, something you see SEELE feel strongly as Blaspshemy when Eva01 ate Zereuls's S2.

[I couldn't get a table to look right, so we're going to have to do WITHOUT conveniently-matching rows:]

==LILITH & SHOGOUKI: A COMPARISON==

(snip)

I don't think we've ever been shown what Lilith actually looks like.

Originally posted on: 01-Aug-2003, 03:13 GMT

[thewayneiac [ANF]]

This was on the last page and cried out for bumping.

Originally posted on: 20-Jul-2004, 18:13 GMT

[Keisuke-kun [ANF]]

Kaworu is Great....

Originally posted on: 20-Jul-2004, 18:15 GMT