Kaworu - The Origins

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Kaworu - The Origins

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

In an attempt to breath some life into this forum, I'll repost an old question of mine:





The Origins of Kaworu Nagisa (Last revised on 17 Feb 2003)


There are 2 (as far as I'm aware) theories on the origins of Kaworu Nagisa. I'm curious to


Theory 1: Kaworu is an Angel Captured as an Embryo, with the Soul of Adam

Really only supported by:

The End of Evangelion Theatrical Program

[Kaworu Nagisa]

The Fifth Children who was sent by SEELE to NERV. However, his true identity was that of the 17th Angel. It is likely that he was an Angel which had been captured by SEELE in the embryo stage.[/u] Unlike the other Angels, he has feelings quite similar to humans. The records list his birthdate as September 13th, 2000 AD. He made contact with the Third Children -- Shinji Ikari-- as a human, and although he became friends with Shinji, he was ultimately crushed to death by Eva-01 piloted by Shinji. He said that "Life and Death are of equal value," and "Only one form of life can be chosen to be given the future."

This in the RCB's (usually vague) manner, suggests that Kaworu was captured by SEELE, who then presumable brainwashed him. This would appear to be at odds with the other theory:

Believing this, it is also puzzling how an angel would acquire Adam's soul. and what happened to its own soul, presuming it even had one, if not, further questions are raised.

Theory 2: Kaworu is a Human Clone, With the Soul of Adam


This theory (that I support) is that he is a human clone (of Kihl?), with the soul of Adam, created by SEELE, supported by:

Ep 24': The Final Messenger
Kaworu:
So you're the First Children - Ayanami... Rei.
You're the same as me...[/u]
We've both taken the lilim's form as our body to live on this planet.

“You're the same as me” – Self explanatory

Ep 24': The Beginning and the End, or “Knockin' on Heavens Door”
SEELE:
And in Adam, progenitor of Angels - the true successors from the lost White Moon.

SEELE:
And whose salvaged soul resides only within you...


This one states, that Adams soul was salvaged, which would presumably would have been by SEELE (Unless somehow, a soulless angel was to come across it, and somehow absorb it, which I don't really consider likely) The very way they say it seems to imply that they did it.

Ep 25: The World Ending
Rei:
Even though he was as human as me?

Rei, states that Kaworu was as human as she was, supporting his earlier statement that they are the same, and thus that Kaworu is indeed a clone, and not a captured angel. It could be argued that Kaworu and Rei are both referring to their souls, and not their body. I find this unlikely, as while both have the souls of a Source of Life (Adam and Lilith respectively), Kaworu refers to their physical form in their meeting, and never even refers to their souls, and I consider the souls of Adam and Lilith to be too different to believe that they were referring to them.

Also, in Ep 25', we see the EVA-Series use Kaworu dummy plugs, this also adds to the evidence that Kaworu is the same as Rei.

From the evidence in the series, it does appear to support that Kaworu is a clone, despite what the RCB says. I'm curious to see what others think on the matter. Image



Aside: If Kaworu is the same as Rei, as suggested, then the question of how he was actually created can get interesting. The most intriguing and plausible explanation for Rei's creation was posted by MDWigs a while back:

MDWigs
Lets set the scene here.

Eva-01 was joined to Lilith during the experiment where Yui was absorbed (see liner note from episode 21). Presumably also Eva-01 was joined to Lilith during the experiment where they tried to salvage Yui.

This is what I think happened. They go to reconstruct Yui's body, but something goes wrong, they don't just get one reconstruction of Yui's body, they get many of them. At this point Yui is effectively absorbed into Lilith, Yui's soul is somewhere within the source of life of all humanity. They go to reconstruct a human body out of that, and they end up with a whole lot of little human bodies, clones of Yui. They then try and put Yui's soul into one of them. Yui doesn't want to go though, she doesn't want to return to physical form. Lilith's soul though, for all intents and purposes, could just be floating around in her body minding its own business. Then a bunch of scientists put her in Yui's body. Thus Rei is born. She has Yui's body (created out of the makeup of Lilith, remember Rei is not exactly like Yui, she does have blue hair and red eyes after all) but she doesn't have Yui's soul, she has Lilith's soul instead. They then go and prepare a whole lot of the other bodies that they created (still souless) and put them down in terminal dogma. Sometime later they sever Eva-01 from Lilith. Lilith is left with no legs, not soul, but lots of little legs sticking out of her. Eva-01 is left as a clone of Lilith and possessing Yui's soul.


This also ties into the “what was really going on in Antarctica?” question. Adam had bindings similar to the Eva's on him, which we know to be non-biological, there was a 14 year old girl present (Why? On a top secret research mission Image). Could, someone of tried a contact experiment with Adam, and ended up creating Kaworu? Would a similar thing to what happened with Lilith even work with Adam?

Opinions?

Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2003, 13:23 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

In support of the first theory: isn't there a reference, in the Second Impact scene in D&R, to inserting human genes into Adam, as part of the process of reducing him to an embryo? The fact that Kaworu is said to have been born on the very day of 2I would seem to me to indicate that is how he originated.

Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2003, 14:29 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

I always went with the second Theory myself.

Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2003, 16:35 GMT

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Postby Lord Kuroishi [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

But if the second theory is true, and Kaworu isn't a real Angel, then doesn't that mean NERV still had one more Angel to deal with?

Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2003, 17:39 GMT

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Postby Siendra [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

I have alway's gone along with the 2nd theory.

Sharp, I was actually thinking about PM'ing you about something like this. I was thinking about bringing the lance back up...

Edit:

Adam was the first angel, but it was perdicted in the Dead Sea scroll's that he would be reborn as the 17th Angel. I dont beleive Rei's birth was perdicted, that's why she isnt considered an Angel.

Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2003, 18:32 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

Shin-seiki wrote:In support of the first theory: isn't there a reference, in the Second Impact scene in D&R, to inserting human genes into Adam, as part of the process of reducing him to an embryo? The fact that Kaworu is said to have been born on the very day of 2I would seem to me to indicate that is how he originated.

Ep 21'
(Radio):
The genes implanted into Adam have already achieved physical merging!


This could be taken as meaning the Lance, which was put in at that time, or it could be something to do with Kaworu. Bochan_Bird touched on this a while back on the Eva ML. Unfortunatly the archives aren't available just now ><

Shin-seiki wrote:I always wondered, why is Kaworu the 17th angel if he has the soul of Adam? Because if that is the case why is not Rei considered an angel unto herself?

NERV and SEELE called anything angels that suited them. Angels are beings born from Adam, yet they call Lilith the 2nd Angel. Its used when it suits them.

Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2003, 19:39 GMT

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Postby Hathaway Noa [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

But did'nt Gendo say that he merged with Adam, or only Adam's Embrionic body.

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 08:18 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:13 am

Ugh... The origins of Kaworu. I've been agonizing over this one myself for a while, and I'm managed to come up with some pretty outlandish ideas. Might not be too believable, but, hey, nothing wrong with putting whatever you've got out into the debating arena!

Before I go any further, I just want to point out that, while I like MDWigs' idea on Lilith's little legs, the idea doesn't work on a matter of scale. Watch episode 24 again and compare Kaworu to those legs. Either they made Kaworu way too small compared to Lil, or Lilith's little legs are nothing BUT little legs sticking out of her mutilated body for reasons that aren't likely to ever make complete sense. ::p Still, I think the idea that the Rei bodies were created from Lilith's body in the same way that Shogouki was created from Lilith has merit.

Back to Kaworu-kun... I already typed out an overly-lengthy passage pertaining to my ideas somewhere on my webpage and, simply because I'm lazy, I won't retype it. I'm copying the text here for your "convenience", with some minor editing done to take it out of the original context for which I wrote it (which you can view here: http://www.avians.net/rkc/fan/gallery-eva.html).

--

"Tabris" is used interchangeably with "Kaworu". But are they really one and the same? Kaworu is, evidently, one of many albinized clones -- not unlike Rei -- of some unknown individual; though we never see it, there would seem to be a tank full of him somewhere in Germany (probably Berlin, where Seele HQ likely is). Ergo, Kaworu (I really think he should've had German name -- he was sent from Germany, after all -- maybe, erm... Fritz) himself is a vessel created by humanity, and one within which the soul of Adam was somehow displaced. (Hmm... Maybe Kaworu really has an entry plug, and they gave the little Adam embryo his own custom plug suit and did the Contact Experiment or something, and that's how Kaworu really got his soul. Now there's a thought... >>D) So what's with the angelic designation of "Tabris"? He's just a clone body with Adam's soul inside, and that doesn't really make him a unique entity the way Sachiel-tachi are. (FYI, "-tachi" is just a useful Japanese suffix that means "and others". Well, sometimes it just creates the effect of pluralization. Very handy, though.) If he recombined with Adam, would that really do anything other than put Adam back into the state he had been when he was recovered from Antarctica after Second Impact -- soul or no soul, he's still a helpless embryo. And Kaworu's body is, presumably, just something they grew in Germany -- nothing really special in its own right, so nothing would result from fusion with the Adam embryo any more spectacular than what Gendou did.

Is he really a unique entity -- and thus an Angel/shito -- or not? I considered the possibility that Kaworu might actually be an example of the two-souls-in-one-body phenomenon, which is actually demonstrated at least twice in "NGE": First with EVA-03 (whose body is cohabited by "Barb" -- or, to stick to canon, "whoever the original soul placed within Sangouki was" -- and Bardiel) and later with Yui and Shinji inside EVA-01. In both cases, there is a dominant soul and a passive soul -- and, if applicable to Kaworu, Adam is obviously the dominant.

And what of Tabris? In this one scheme I've constructed, he was originally an Angel/shito like the rest -- born from Adam's shed mature body at Second Impact (which is never actually stated as being the Genesis of the shito, though I always thought it worked nicely...) with fourteen others, their black crystales scattered across the Earth to "hatch" approximately fifteen years later. However, SEELE discovered and captivated the unborn Tabris (sort of like what NERV was trying to do with Sandalphon) and subjected him to unknown manners of scientific experimentation -- all stuff NERV would never know about. In one of these scientific artrocities, the Kaworu clone-bodies were created from Tabris's very flesh, using the same method employed to construct Shogouki from Lilith and, more applicably, the Rei clone bodies, as well. (Again, never actually stated, to my knowledge, that the Rei-clones were created this way, though it works well enough.) And, somehow, Tabris's soul was isolated within one of these Lilim bodies, one that would eventually gain Adam's soul (which wouldn't have much problem dominating the body) and become known as "Kaworu" -- by virtue of constitution alone, a very dangerous entity. (What the he11 were those grumpy old men thinking?)

Tabris's body was also used by SEELE for a means of pioneering the use of the Super-Solenoid, should the project associated with EVA-04 fail (which it did). The Angels/shito were created from Adam possessing these organs, but the Evas, although based largely on Adam, innately lacked them. (Was it done intentionally, to make the first Evas easier to control?...) Although NERV assumed that the work done in Germany associated with the S2 had been based on the slain Angels/shito (the ones that didn't blow up, anyway), in actuality it was all based on Tabris. EVA-04 had utilized an S2 kikan generated independently -- cloned, essentially -- and then integrated within the body, though the assimilation procedure didn't go as well as hoped. The Eva Series 09~13, on the other hand, were created by hybridizing the basic Evangelion genome with Tabris himself and successfully resulted in Evas with innate Super-Solenoids, albeit Evas with certain unforseeable physical divergences.

I added the part about the MP Evas to Tabris's story mostly because I had never come up with any explanation for their heads. If I just made it another element of the over-elaborate "Tabris Theorum", it could be explained fairly neatly. But, like much about the anime proper (not additions I've tagged on for my own purposes), the Theorum probably raises as many questions as it answers.

--

Sorry in advance about the length. ^_^;

--Reichu

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 03:13 GMT

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Postby Siendra [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:14 am

A good theory, but it has some nitt-picky-flaw's.

Kawrou was not born from Lilith's leg's. Eva-01 was, but not Kawrou. I generaly except that the little leg's are a result of the contact experiment in which Yui was lost. Her soul lingered in the Eva well he physical form returned to Lilith, thus resu;ting in the addition of lilim like limb's.

Saying he is not a unique entity is just plain blind. A lilim body possesed by the soul of of a non-lilim entity. What's not unique?

If Kawrou joined with Adam's embrionic state it's likely Adam would begin a growth process until he matured, at which point lord only know's what would happen.

Other then those thing's, I like it. However, I still agree with theories comprised here before now.

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 07:24 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:14 am

Just a side note about Lilith's little legs: I don't think there's anything more involved there than Lilith's body trying to regenerate itself (Eva 01 was supposedly created from her off-ripped legs). The lance probably inhibited regeneration of proper gigantic legs, thus resulting those little weird-looking leg-pairs.

And Rei-clones are not created from Lilith, they're 100% human, right?

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 09:48 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:14 am

Dr. Nick wrote:Just a side note about Lilith's little legs: I don't think there's anything more involved there than Lilith's body trying to regenerate itself (Eva 01 was supposedly created from her off-ripped legs). The lance probably inhibited regeneration of proper gigantic legs, thus resulting those little weird-looking leg-pairs.

And Rei-clones are not created from Lilith, they're 100% human, right?
Precisely: those little legs have nothing to do with Rei per se; they are simply fractals of the big legs that Lilith is regenerating. Those little legs are just[/u] legs, there are no little torsos and arms connected to them. When the series EVAs assimilate with Rei we see little Rei faces forming as part of the transformation; same principal (fractals) at work. When Unit 01 uses the Lance to destroy the Copy Lances, little lance forks form as they burst. Can you say 'fractal'? Good, I knew you could...Image

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 10:19 GMT

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Postby HimuraProns [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:14 am

How do we no hes not just some guy that apeared one day and tried to destroy nerv and seel said "well thats convenient, lets claim that we did it"?

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 10:25 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:14 am

HimuraProns wrote:How do we no hes not just some guy that apeared one day and tried to destroy nerv and seel said "well thats convenient, lets claim that we did it"?


Episodes 24 Directors Cut.

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 13:23 GMT

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Postby Max Volume [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:15 am

The second theory makes more sense to me for pretty much the same reason that was stated in the initial post.

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 13:54 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:15 am

siendra wrote:A good theory, but it has some nitt-picky-flaw's.

Kawrou was not born from Lilith's leg's. Eva-01 was, but not Kawrou. I generaly except that the little leg's are a result of the contact experiment in which Yui was lost. Her soul lingered in the Eva well he physical form returned to Lilith, thus resu;ting in the addition of lilim like limb's.

Saying he is not a unique entity is just plain blind. A lilim body possesed by the soul of of a non-lilim entity. What's not unique?

If Kawrou joined with Adam's embrionic state it's likely Adam would begin a growth process until he matured, at which point lord only know's what would happen.

Other then those thing's, I like it. However, I still agree with theories comprised here before now.


Its similar to Lillith one of the main reasons lilith wasn't regenerating completley (besides the lance) and couldn't move was that her suol was absent in Rei. When the two came together Lillith began to mature rapidly.

I expect the same would happen with Tabris if he had manage to combine with Adam.

The Yui clones also look very similar to Kaworu. This could mean that seele or someone made a male version of the clone and placed Adams soul in it. Tthat might not even have been necessary. As seen when Rei combined with Lilith, Adams soul may have shaped the body to his own ends.

By the way who wrote the Red Cross Book

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2003, 16:42 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:15 am

In one of these scientific artrocities, the Kaworu clone-bodies were created from Tabris's very flesh, using the same method employed to construct Shogouki from Lilith and, more applicably, the Rei clone bodies,


The Rei clone bodies were created using Yui's DNA....I don't see how Kaworu, a human could be created using Angel's DNA.

If Kawrou joined with Adam's embrionic state it's likely Adam would begin a growth process until he matured, at which point lord only know's what would happen.


I agree, I just think it would just take Adam's soul to be returned to him, and the growth process or whatever will cause the saem thing that happened during 2nd Impact. I way I see it, everything should've ended during 2nd impact where Adam started to grow and expanded his Anti-AF which caused the humans to revert to LCL but it was stopped when they were able to reduce him back to embryonic form. For Kaworu to join with Adam and return his soul, will just have started everything again and would've finished what had started during 2I.

I agree with the 2nd theory, I don't believe that Kaowru is actually the angel and is the clone like Sharp said, most likely SEEL. I don't see how it's possible for Kaworu himself , a human to actually be the 17th angel when we humans are the 18th angel and it's not actually possible for angels to have two same forms.

Originally posted on: 29-Jul-2003, 05:20 GMT

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Postby Pepperidge [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:15 am

Well, the way I see it, Kaworu and the Adam embryo were both by-products of the Second Impact most likely uncovered in Antartica-- the only traces of Adam remaining. Just like how Rei was obviously the by-product of Yui's Eva-01 test.

However, that still leaves the question of why he had the form of a human. Did they insert the Lilim genes (Keel's?) into Adam before jamming the Spear up his arse, or was it just a total coincidence?

I have no clue.

Originally posted on: 29-Jul-2003, 05:32 GMT

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Postby saiyajin prince [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:16 am

Pepperidge wrote:However, that still leaves the question of why he had the form of a human. Did they insert the Lilim genes (Keel's?) into Adam before jamming the Spear up his arse, or was it just a total coincidence?

I have no clue.


I don't see the point of putting Keel's Genes in Adam.......I think it's just that's his true form.

Originally posted on: 29-Jul-2003, 05:39 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:16 am

I still like my theory, confusing as it is. It combines elements of the two primary "Kaworu origins" theories and manages to explain a few other NGE mysteries at the same time. But it's okay if nobody likes it.

I doubt that Kaworu's body is a byproduct of Second Impact because, well, there are more than one of him! He's like Rei in that regard -- he has multiple bodies, and is quite evidently a Lilim creation. I thought that, since Rei is a clone of Gendou's dead (hah, hah) lover, Kaworu might be a clone of Keel Lorenz's dead lover, but most people don't seem to be too fond of that idea... ::sweatdrop:: Still, the whole Kaworu situation is pretty "wrong" to begin with... Look at volume 7 of the manga -- at the very end, you have a bunch of old guys staring at this naked teenage male. How wrong is that?

Erm, anyway, when I said that Kaworu might have been created from this theoretical entity Tabris (that is, an angel we never see in the anime) the same way that Shogouki and Rei were created from Lilith, I am NOT saying that they are using Tabris's DNA! Lilith, or Tabris, provides the biomass, but their bodies are being used to grow entities physically unique from themselves. As if that makes ANY sense at all.

I thought my original post made perfect sense, though I guess that doesn't prevent misinterpretation. ::sigh::

--Reichu

Originally posted on: 29-Jul-2003, 13:24 GMT

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Postby Pepperidge [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:16 am

Did I ever say that there wasn't more than one of him? Image

Originally posted on: 29-Jul-2003, 19:00 GMT


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