SEELE, Yui and Transcendent Power

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K2Grey [ANF]
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Postby K2Grey [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

I remember reading all the threads, but there's enough of them and they're not exactly well organized, so at the moment I don't remember what you proposed the purpose of 2I to be (although since Misato's info primarily comes from Kaji, there's no reason why she wouldn't be wrong or have incomplete knowledge, seeing as how Kaji thinks Adam is in Central Dogma).

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 02:39 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

K2Grey wrote:I remember reading all the threads, but there's enough of them and they're not exactly well organized, so at the moment I don't remember what you proposed the purpose of 2I to be


It's hard to be organized when you're "brainstorming to the bottom of things". Image These threads are just a rite of passage... I suppose it is a bit unfair to expect everybody to be able to follow the convoluted deluges, but they're so convoluted it's also hard for me to remember where everything is, and repeating myself takes extra energy.

Rest of the reply here.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 04:16 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

While on the subject of SEELE, does anyone care to speculate as to what form Keel would be reconstituted in, should he choose to return after 3I? His "original" form is rather different from his more recent guise as Robo-Illuminatus.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 05:02 GMT

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Soluzar wrote:While on the subject of SEELE, does anyone care to speculate as to what form Keel would be reconstituted in, should he choose to return after 3I? His "original" form is rather different from his more recent guise as Robo-Illuminatus.


Since Asuka came back injured with her clothes on, Shinji returned with his clothes on, I would assume (and hope) he would return as a cyborg, he'd probably just reform out of the same LCL and robotic parts he came from. It seems whatever physical traits you had, and physical objects on, in, or near you come with you. Besides those robot parts are him, he'd have to imagine himself the way he was otherwise he wouldn't be Keel. Besides cyborgs are teh coolest.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 05:17 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Response over here, to keep things on-topic.

Goddamit, Seele08 posted before I could post here. If we could keep that stuff in the metabiology thread, that would be good, since that's what it's about. If you could move your reply to there, Keel's Girl, that would be teh awesome.

Well, whatever. If subsequent (potential) conversation can stay over there, I would appreciate it. Things are convoluted enough as it is.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 05:21 GMT

K2Grey [ANF]
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Postby K2Grey [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Comment on other possible endings of EoE that might have occured if Asuka and Shinji did not, in fact, return with clothes.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 17:11 GMT

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Postby Youjozuki [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

I read enough Doujinshi to know that. エロエロ

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 17:25 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

So much for Reichu's suggestion for staying on-topc Image_

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 17:32 GMT

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Well considering the original topic was evolving into what would probably become a fl4m3 w4r, I would say change is good.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 17:44 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Yeah, but it would be really groovy if things could be kept as organized as possible (which is difficult enough right now!), especially because I'm going to be using these threads as references for FGC later on. Better to redirect off-topic discussion into relevant preexisting threads than to hijack new ones that exist for a different purpose and let things become more fragmented and disorganized than they already are. Yes, no, maybe? "Work with me, people! Work with me!"

Also, I suppose now is as good a time as any to drag another Reichu Classic out of the Vault:

Image

Yeah, I know, the doctoring job is pretty blatant, but it gets the job done.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 18:03 GMT

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Here are some things that I discovered in my research for Fuzzy Logic:

Only once is it explicitly stated that Second Impact was deliberate. This was by Misato in EoE. Fuyutsuki accuses Gendo of doing it in ep21, but Gendo doesn't actually fess up. However, there are MANY statements by many people - including the Committee members themselves - that Second Impact was an accident. The only way for me to rationalize this is to suggest that Gendo (a) was operating behind SEELE's back since before Second Impact, and (b) didn't want Second Impact to happen, but knew that it might happen and was willing to take the risk (as long as he saved his own hide).

So whatever Gendo was scheming, he had come up with the idea years before proposing the HIP to SEELE. The Zerogouki prototypes were also being constructed years before the HIP was proposed, meaning that the Evas' original purpose was not the tangification of humanity - there is much talk of them being some sort of "ark" instead, to ensure the survival of humanity. Given that Yui worked at the Artificial Evolution Laboratory, and given that the Evas are described as both human and as copies of Adam, I'd say that the original plan was for the Evangelions to be the next step in the evolution of humanity, a race of Adam-human hybrids with the best of both worlds (both fruits?), making them the ultimate survivors. This is consistent with humanity's survival being "the will of she who chose to remain in the Eva". The use of the word "remain" is curious, as it implies that she wasn't planning on being absorbed, but once in there, she decided to stay. That would make it NOT part of the original plan. Thus, Gendo changed the plan; he decided that humanity's survival via the Eva series, which would have kept him eternally separate from Yui, was not quite as appealing as humanity's survival via tangification into a collective consciousness. Yui, however, was still quite intent on the Ark business, as the ending sequences in EoE indicate.

What intrigues me is that in EoE, while Gendo and SEELE plan to use different means to achieve their own versions of Instrumentality, both of their plans end up in the same place - the dissolution of all AT Fields and the merging of all human souls into one. Why they would be at odds is beyond me. But neither ends up succeeding; Yui-sama is the winner instead, with her "ark" going off into deep space. And somehow, Shogouki's acquisition of the S2 organ was part of both Gendo's new plan AND Yui's original plan. And how does Rei fit into all of this? Well, I have no idea, outside of the whole "harvesting Kaworu's soul" bit.

Or something.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 22:41 GMT

Ornette [ANF]
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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:Only once is it explicitly stated that Second Impact was deliberate. This was by Misato in EoE. Fuyutsuki accuses Gendo of doing it in ep21, but Gendo doesn't actually fess up. However, there are MANY statements by many people - including the Committee members themselves - that Second Impact was an accident.

It is also possible that something deliberate was done (by Seele) that inadvertantly caused the bad part of 2I (the accident part). Looks like something (perhaps many things) unanticipated had happened at the beginning of ep21', how much of it was actually anticipated by Seele, I don't know.

From this POV, you can say that the reducing of Adam to an embryo part of second impact was anticipated, but the huge explosion that caused 3 billion deaths part of second impact was an accident.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 22:56 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:Only once is it explicitly stated that Second Impact was deliberate. This was by Misato in EoE.


It was engineered by Seele. Everything that happened was completely intentional.

Fuyutsuki accuses Gendo of doing it in ep21, but Gendo doesn't actually fess up.


Gendo was involved with Seele, which is why Kozo goes bitching to him.

However, there are MANY statements by many people - including the Committee members themselves - that Second Impact was an accident.


...like?

The only way for me to rationalize this is to suggest that Gendo (a) was operating behind SEELE's back since before Second Impact, and (b) didn't want Second Impact to happen, but knew that it might happen and was willing to take the risk (as long as he saved his own hide).


He was down there in Antarctica with Keel. They left together. Gendo was "eating some toads".

So whatever Gendo was scheming, he had come up with the idea years before proposing the HIP to SEELE.


I'm still trying to work out exactly what Gendo means by his statement in #21 -- I need to take another look sometime -- but the usual interpretation, that HIP is somehow something that Gendo came up with himself, flies in the face of everything that Seele is and everything that they have ever planned to do.

Seele represents a radical Kabbalist secret society that has been around for centuries, and they seem to ultimately have their roots in the Essenes. Their very faith entails following the Sephirotic Tree of Life to become one with God (and to reunite God with the Shekinah, but it's uncertain if that fits into NGE anywhere...). Once the two Moons and their contents (and respective Seeds) were discovered, and the documents contained within deciphered (later named the Secret (lit. "Hidden") Dead Sea Scrolls), Seele was warped by this transcendental technology, as it would allow them to carry out their dreams in a way that was previously impossible.

Regarding the "ark" stuff and Gendo's intent upon evolving humanity -- I'm going to be taking another look at that, so no comment from me at the moment.

Given that Yui worked at the Artificial Evolution Laboratory, and given that the Evas are described as both human and as copies of Adam, I'd say that the original plan was for the Evangelions to be the next step in the evolution of humanity, a race of Adam-human hybrids with the best of both worlds (both fruits?), making them the ultimate survivors.


Regarding the "human" stuff, they are not "hybrids" in the genetic sense, but a complete Eva could be considered one in that she possesses a Lilim soul and all that. But the real reason Ritsuko calls the Evas human is because of what "human" truly means in NGE, despite the fact that it is usually used to refer to our own species.

This is consistent with humanity's survival being "the will of she who chose to remain in the Eva". The use of the word "remain" is curious, as it implies that she wasn't planning on being absorbed, but once in there, she decided to stay.


It refers to the fact that Yui didn't respond to the salvage operation. We know that she had decided upon her fate as early as 2003; pay close attention to the Ashinoko flashback, started in #21' and reprised near the end of EoE.

Yui, however, was still quite intent on the Ark business, as the ending sequences in EoE indicate.


Yui doesn't play into Gendo's plans. Why do you think that she does? Gendo's "ark" is not the same thing as Yui's final mission, after humanity's future on Earth is secured -- that is, to become the next Source of Life and continue the legacy of humanity elsewhere. "Ark" and Source/Seed of Life are very different things in NGE.

And how does Rei fit into all of this? Well, I have no idea, outside of the whole "harvesting Kaworu's soul" bit.


No "harvesting Kaworu's soul". Bad. Bad Fuzzy! :gets out the crop:

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 23:02 GMT

Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]
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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Reichu wrote:...like?


Committe to Gendo, episode 02: "It's the same as it was fifteen years ago. A disaster comes as it will, without warning"

Committe to Gendo, episode 10: "Unacceptable, it's too dangerous. Have you forgotten what happened 15 years ago?"

Fuyutsuki to Gendo, episode 12: "That arrogance is what caused the tragedy of fifteen years ago."

Ritsuko in the Reiquarium, episode 23': "Man found God and in their joy, tried to make Him theirs. That's why there was divine retribution. That was fifteen years ago." (Divine retribution = god punishing us, not us killing ourselves.)

PWN@G3.

Originally posted on: 25-Jan-2006, 23:56 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:15 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:PWN@G3.


One is not allowed to declare pwn@g3 for oneself. This is an illegal activity.

The general rule in NGE is to trust what people tell you unless what you are told is inconsistent, and then you have to look a little deeper to figure out just WTF is really going on. This is the general rule in real life, too.

Originally posted on: 26-Jan-2006, 00:11 GMT

Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]
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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:16 am

Actually, Ritsuko's comment might not count, because that's when she was babbling on about how humans created Adam after Second Impact had occurred or somesuch nonsense... goddamn this show is inconsistent...

Originally posted on: 26-Jan-2006, 00:33 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:16 am

Fuzzy Chickens wrote:Actually, Ritsuko's comment might not count, because that's when she was babbling on about how humans created Adam after Second Impact had occurred or somesuch nonsense... goddamn this show is inconsistent...


It's not nonsense at all, if you understand what she is actually saying (in Japanese, or are simply in touch with an accurate and reliable translation) and/or don't paraphrase her inaccurately. Adam had been reduced to an egg by 2I (the rest of her body blew sky-high) and was collected by Seele, whereupon she was restored to the palm-sized embryo we see in #08. Hence Kaji's comment.

Originally posted on: 26-Jan-2006, 00:36 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:16 am

@Fuzzy: Actually, regarding this "disaster" stuff... You made me think a little, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

But my sleeping pills are making my typing weird, so I'd better stop.

Originally posted on: 26-Jan-2006, 05:56 GMT

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Postby MagicianCamille [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:16 am

Watching Fuzzy and Reichu's egos collide is entertaining.

One day Reichu, Fuzzy, and Monkey should come together and have a giant 3-way debate. At the end everybody will need a smoke.

Originally posted on: 26-Jan-2006, 06:41 GMT

Seele08 [ANF]
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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:16 am

MagicianCamille wrote:Watching Fuzzy and Reichu's egos collide is entertaining.

One day Reichu, Fuzzy, and Monkey should come together and have a giant 3-way debate. At the end everybody will need a smoke.


It wouldn't be complete without Zugzwang he makes fuzzy look like an amateur.

Originally posted on: 26-Jan-2006, 07:30 GMT


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