Does Asuka die?

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 am

So other people come back but Asuka and Shinji who just happen to know eachother come back in exactly the same place lying down parallel next to eachother with no one else around.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 02:29 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 am

Amazing coincidence, eh?

Hm ... deja vu.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 03:07 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 am

Shinji and Asuka have actually been there for a while (although the direct evidence for this escapes my brain at the moment). Shinji is there presumably because it is where he swam ashore (after ejecting his entry plug into the ocean and all), but I dunno about Asuka. Perhaps she appeared in the general proximity of where she died (which is not far from that shore, I imagine) and she and Shinji just sort of found each other after that.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 03:13 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 am

Reichu wrote:Shinji and Asuka have actually been there for a while (although the direct evidence for this escapes my brain at the moment).


The rust on the cross

But doesn’t rust take mouths to develop? I don’t think they have been just laying there for that long.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 03:38 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:53 am

Reichu wrote:Shin-seiki, referring to what you said... How does Asuka being Tang-ified in the plug and not being seen visited by Rei at ALL (unlike Misato and Ritsuko, whom she visits twice) account for her presence in the pre-3I Instrumentality sequence? To my mind, the only thing it would explain is why we don't see Rei melt her down, but not how her soul would get connected to Shinji's... (Gah! The ellipses again!)
Maybe the fact that they're both in the same state of existence (i.e. physical body disolved, so that their mind/soul is all that is left of them) means that their minds are melded for that reason alone. Remember, Instrumentality is not just a particular event that happens in connection with 3I; it is a state of being... Shinji was in an Instrumentality-like state in #20, as was Yui when she got tangified.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 03:59 GMT

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Postby BlueWraith [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:55 am

tv33 wrote:The rust on the cross

But doesn't rust take mouths to develop? I don't think they have been just laying there for that long.


as the scene pans to the ocean and Rei's giant face, do we see one of the arms falling from the sky?

If so i would be tempted to say just a moment..
If not then maybe it took along time for their conciousness to find/enter their body's. Heck the sea could have sustained their body's during this time

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 04:12 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

BlueWraith wrote:as the scene pans to the ocean and Rei's giant face, do we see one of the arms falling from the sky?
The arm/hand falling is at the same time that Rei's head falls to earth. 'I need you' is later.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 04:18 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Maybe the fact that they're both in the same state of existence (i.e. physical body disolved, so that their mind/soul is all that is left of them) means that their minds are melded for that reason alone. Remember, Instrumentality is not just a particular event that happens in connection with 3I; it is a state of being...


Still, why would they experience Instrumentality TOGETHER unless something was connecting them? F'rinstance, if you Tang-ified three people on three different continents, wouldn't they logically all have mind-f**ks independent from one another?

Shinji was in an Instrumentality-like state in #20, as was Yui when she got tangified.


I don't believe we were given a sneak peak into Yui's brain when she was Tangified, so this is mostly just an assumption on your part, no? Anyway, in Yui's case, she didn't just dissolve, her soul moved into a new body, so she wasn't really "floating around" like Shinji was.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 04:31 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Reichu wrote:Still, why would they experience Instrumentality TOGETHER unless something was connecting them?
You ask why, I ask why not?
F'rinstance, if you Tang-ified three people on three different continents, wouldn't they logically all have mind-f**ks independent from one another?
I don't know what the range limit involved is, or even if there is a limit. In any case, it's not out of the question that Rei, as I put it before, is somehow making all this happen. She's the Uber-being, ask her how it all works! Image
I don't believe we were given a sneak peak into Yui's brain when she was Tangified, so this is mostly just an assumption on your part, no? Anyway, in Yui's case, she didn't just dissolve, her soul moved into a new body, so she wasn't really "floating around" like Shinji was.
That may well be, but I have noticed that there is an interesting choice of words on the old procedural manual from ten years earlier that Ritsuko consults when she devises the plan to retreive Shinji in #20:
Image

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 04:51 GMT

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Postby Knives [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:That may well be, but I have noticed that there is an interesting choice of words on the old procedural manual from ten years earlier that Ritsuko consults when she devises the plan to retreive Shinji in #20:
Image

... Yeah ... I thought that was the whole point ... that Yui was liquified ... hence the previous case that Ritsuko calls upon as reference in salvaging Shinji ... and besides that ... at the grave site, Gendo and Shinji both state that nothing of Yui's body remains ...

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 05:15 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Knives wrote:... Yeah ... I thought that was the whole point ... that Yui was liquified ... hence the previous case that Ritsuko calls upon as reference in salvaging Shinji ... and besides that ... at the grave site, Gendo and Shinji both state that nothing of Yui's body remains ...
The RCB, tho, states that there was something of Yui salvaged; enough to create Rei...

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 05:18 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:You ask why, I ask why not?


I ask why because you suggest (1) that Rei's appearances to Misato and Ritsuko post-mortem is to connect them to Shinji later and (2) that Anno chose not to show this with Asuka for a reason. I'm still confused as to why melting before dying would be the difference between needed to be "connected" by Rei as suggested or not.

That may well be, but I have noticed that there is an interesting choice of words on the old procedural manual from ten years earlier that Ritsuko consults when she devises the plan to retreive Shinji in #20:
Image


That certainly is interesting... Any idea what it means?

I still find it odd to compare Yui and Shinji's cases too closely, for the aforementioned reasons. Are they suggesting that Yui "floated around" for a while and did not immediately enter the Eva's core? That would seem to conflict with intimations in the show that the very reason they couldn't salvage Yui because she "chose to remain in Eva".

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 05:36 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Knives wrote:... Yeah ... I thought that was the whole point ... that Yui was liquified ... hence the previous case that Ritsuko calls upon as reference in salvaging Shinji ... and besides that ... at the grave site, Gendo and Shinji both state that nothing of Yui's body remains ...

Shin-seiki wrote:The RCB, tho, states that there was something of Yui salvaged; enough to create Rei...


It's a clear example of either Gendou lying to his son, with the following quote:

Ikari: Nothing is left.
This grave is nothing but a decoration.
There were no remains.
(from the literal translation project)

OR a screw-up on the part of the writers, OR a screw-up on the part of the RCB writers. Personally, I feel that the latter option is most likely. Unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious, there's no reason on earth that the genetic material that gave rise to Rei could not have been extracted from Yui prior to her entering the Evangelion.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 07:17 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Okay, so the "RCB" says:

Her body was created from the salvaged remains of Yui Ikari after Yui was taken into the Eva...


Now that I think about it, how is this consistent with the show? Yui's body went splat, she entered the Eva, and all attempts at "salvaging" her back into a body failed. Ergo, there WERE no "salvaged remains" from which Rei could be created; there was just a puddle of LCL, which isn't quite the same thing.

Like Soluzar said, "there's no reason on earth that the genetic material that gave rise to Rei could not have been extracted from Yui prior to her entering the Evangelion." Unless, of course, I'm missing the blindingly obvious, too. Image

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 09:16 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Reichu wrote:Okay, so the "RCB" says:



Now that I think about it, how is this consistent with the show? Yui's body went splat, she entered the Eva, and all attempts at "salvaging" her back into a body failed. Ergo, there WERE no "salvaged remains" from which Rei could be created; there was just a puddle of LCL, which isn't quite the same thing.
Argh! Were is MDWigs when you need him?... I disagree with the way you're characterizing the original salvage operation; it is clear from Ritsuko's comments to Maya that she is basically just reproducing what was tried before. The process consists of "reconstructing his body and fixing his soul into it" I had always assumed that in Yui's case, they may have got somewhere with the first part, but failed in the second part because Yui didn't want to come back (for reasons of her own). Note how in #20, Ritsuko cries out in frustration "Shinji, don't you want to come back!" The original salvage operation was a long, drawn out process; perhaps having Yui declared dead, with the attendant funeral and grave, etc, was an attempt to misdirect the authorities, (including SEELE) about what was going on, particularly as regards the creation of Rei. Wigs' theory, of course, is that the salvage operation did get something back that was physically Yui, but that the soul that was "fixed" into it was Lilith's. (This does raise the question of why Rei I apparently came into existence as an infant, since she looks to be 4-5 years old in 2010)
In any case, there are plenty of hints that Rei is, one way or another, the (possibly inadvertant) result of Yui's Contact Experiment, and the subsequent salvage operation.
Like Soluzar said, "there's no reason on earth that the genetic material that gave rise to Rei could not have been extracted from Yui prior to her entering the Evangelion." Unless, of course, I'm missing the blindingly obvious, too. Image
Um, I thought that there was consensus that what happened to Yui in the Contact Experiment was anticipated by her, and was, in fact, her intention. Gendo's behavior clearly indicates that he had no idea of what Yui was up to (if he had, I seriously doubt he would have let her go ahead with it). "Extracting Yui's genetic material" in advance, in anticipation of creating Rei and sticking Lilith's soul in her, seems to fly in the face of the idea that what happened to Yui was a total shock to Gendo; the Human Complementation Project was Gendo's way of re-uniting with Yui (once it became clear that the salvage operation had failed), Rei being his primary tool to achieve that end.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 14:33 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:In any case, there are plenty of hints that Rei is, one way or another, the (possibly inadvertant) result of Yui's Contact Experiment, and the subsequent salvage operation.


I seem to remember you believing that Rei creation wasn’t an accident given the "This is the day you were created for" line. I always assumed it was, but that line did make me think.

Shin-seiki wrote:"Extracting Yui's genetic material" in advance, in anticipation of creating Rei and sticking Lilith's soul in her, seems to fly in the face of the idea that what happened to Yui was a total shock to Gendo; the Human Complementation Project was Gendo's way of re-uniting with Yui (once it became clear that the salvage operation had failed), Rei being his primary tool to achieve that end.


They could have had Yui's blood samples on hand, or even hair or skin cells.

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:00 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Ark wrote:So other people come back but Asuka and Shinji who just happen to know eachother come back in exactly the same place lying down parallel next to eachother with no one else around.
I'm amazed how people talk about Asuka turning up at the end without any reference to Rei. As I've mentioned before, if you reduce the plot of #26' to its bare essence, it amounts to "whatever Shinji wants, Shinji gets (thanks to Rei)"... When Shinji says "Nobody cares about me, so let everybody die", guess what? Everybody dies. When, upon due re-consideration, Shinji wishes to end Instrumentality and restore everyone's AT Fields, Rei grants that wish too. When Shinji says "Still, I want to see them again, because my feelings then were real...", I would say it's a good bet that that wish also will be fullfilled (eventually, not all at once; since coming back is a matter of the exercise of each individual's free will). Finally, recall what Shinji told Asuka: "I want to help you somehow, and be with you forever[/u]"
(from Evaotaku's FAQ):
The Eva Cardass Masters card states:
"In the sea of LCL, Shinji wished for a world with other people. He desired to meet them again, even if it meant he would be hurt
and betrayed.* And just as he had hoped/wanted, Asuka was present in the new world.* Only Asuka was there beside him.
The girl whom he had hurt, and who had been hurt by him. But even so, she was the one he had hoped/wished for...."


I'm not suggesting that Rei brought Asuka back; she's back because she[/u] wished to return to physical reality. But is it out of the question that that Rei could have exercised some control over when, and especially where she came back? I don't think they show Rei at the end for no reason; I connect her presence, in my mind, to the fullfillment of Shinji's wish...

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:09 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:"I want to help you somehow, and be with you forever[/u]"


Does he really say that in the Japanese?

I've watched it in subtitles and it doesn't say "be with you forever".

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:18 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Ark wrote:Does he really say that in the Japanese?

I've watched it in subtitles and it doesn't say "be with you forever".
I got that from the EoE screenplay translated by Bochan_bird on EvaOtaku's site: (it's considered much more acurate than Amanda Wynn Lee's atrocious translation on the Manga DVD)

(Shinji and Asuka in Misato's apartment - Asuka sitting dejectedly at table)

Shinji:
I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever.

Asuka:
Then, don't do anything.
Don't come near me anymore... Because all you ever do is hurt me.


Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:23 GMT

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Postby Ark [ANF] » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:56 am

Shin-seiki wrote:I got that from the EoE screenplay by Bochan_bird on EvaOtaku's site: (it's considered much more acurate than Amand Wynn Lee's atrocious translation on the Manga DVD)

(Shinji and Asuka in Misato's apartment - Asuka sitting dejectedly at table)

Shinji:
I want to help you in some way... and to be with you forever.

Asuka:
Then, don't do anything.
Don't come near me anymore... Because all you ever do is hurt me.


Why would they change that considering that it makes the ending so much more significant?

Originally posted on: 21-Sep-2004, 17:27 GMT


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