Pre-3I Kitchen Scene: Memory or Mind-Meld?

[Joeshie [ANF]]

Well, I was having this debate on another forum about if the scene where Shinji chokes Asuka after their big fight in the kitchen was a melding of minds or if it was simply a memory of something that happened in the past. I was arguing that this scene was an interaction between the minds of Shinji and Asuka. However, someone else brought up the point that Pen-Pen is included in the scene, something that I never had taken notice of. If this is a melding of minds, why is Pen-Pen included in this scene. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that it is a coupling of minds?

Originally posted on: 11-May-2005, 23:48 GMT

[Gundampilotspaz [ANF]]

Well, I was having this debate on another forum about if the scene where Shinji chokes Asuka after their big fight in the kitchen was a melding of minds or if it was simply a memory of something that happened in the past. I was arguing that this scene was an interaction between the minds of Shinji and Asuka. However, someone else brought up the point that Pen-Pen is included in the scene, something that I never had taken notice of. If this is a melding of minds, why is Pen-Pen included in this scene. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that it is a coupling of minds?

It could easily be both, just like the playground scene. That was a memory of Shinji slightly distorted by the process of Intermentality.

After that scene pieces from Shinji's memory are shown and they slowly merge into familier scenes from episode 25.

"(Random thought sequence - inside Shinji's mind)

Asuka:
Jeeez! I get so pissed off whenever I look at you!

Shinji:
Because I'm like you...?

Child-Asuka (crying):
Mama!

Asuka (sleep-talking):
Ma... ma...

Shinji (staring at Misato's cross):
Mama...?

Misato (voice):
I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all...

(Kaji's and Misato's college apartment)

Misato:
Mmmm, let's do it.

Kaji:
Again? Aren't you supposed to meet your friend at school today?

Misato:
Hmm? Oh yeah, Ritsuko. It's okay, we still have time...

Kaji:
We've been cooped up here for a week now...

Misato:
Yeah, but I think I'm getting the hang of it... so come on...

(The lovemaking begins and continues in the background)

Misato:
I probably just did this to prove that I existed.

Asuka:
How idiotic! It's just two lonely adults comforting each other.

Ritsuko (precisely):
We want to feel needed, even if it's only physical.

Misato:
I feel wanted, and that makes me happy.

Asuka:
It's just an easy way for you feel that you're worth something.

Shinji (disgusted = thinking):
This is Misato? She does... this?

Misato:
Yes, this is also me... The melting into one another's hearts...
The me that Shinji doesn't know.
Reality does involve pain, but you just have to accept it.

Asuka:
Aaahh... I wonder if I'll act like Misato when I grow up?"

So yes it is a kind of combination of memories and the merging of minds at the same time.

(Yes I used too many pictures, but I wanted to show how the scenes panned out.)

The melding of Shinji's mind begins before all the others, because he is inside the Eva, so in the first Intermentality scene he can only interact with those already "dead" or can connect though special means. Misato, Rei, Asuka, Kaji.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-0.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-1.jpg


The playground is a memory of when Shinji was young, but changed. The Set lights:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-2.jpg
And the fact that Shinji's playmates are dolls.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-5.jpg

I guess it is up to us to decided exactly what it means, but I think it is connected to the dream VS. reality theme played out. Perhaps they were never real and Shinji made up playmates. Perhaps the entire scene repersents the current events and the dolls are Misato and Asuka, called 'home' before him. What ever it is this is clearly intermentality.

We move into images, some memories, some perhaps fantasies.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ND_OF_EVA-9.jpg

Then a shorter vertion of the Case of Misato as seen in episode 25.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-10.jpg

Once that is over we go back to Asuka and Shinji, images from the show with different dialoge, this is both memory and instermentality. The merging of minds are distorting these scenes as interperated by the characters, plus understanding is gained by the way they are looped together.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-15.jpg

At last we see a train and what appears to be direct dialoge between Asuka and Shinji in what seems like the mixture of emotions that they have for each other coming unglued and becoming dangerous. Which leads into the kitchen scene.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...D_OF_EVA-18.jpg


I really don't think that any of this will help, but perhaps it will organize things a bit better for you.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:28 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

I'd say like Gundampilotspaz said, memories distored a bit with introjections of different outcomes(instead of nothing happening, Shinji chokes Asuka) or added characters even, like Pen^2 and when Shinji was watching Misato and Kaji do it from years ago. Even in the TV series, I think it plays an even greater emph with the "mind, soul-melding: into one thing. This is probably so because EOE focused on the technical events as well(showing GNR, ect)

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:51 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Essentially, the kitchen scene is a distorted 'retake' of something that already happened (Shinji telling Asuka that Kaji isn't coming back). Not a dream, though -- just a stage for these soul-to-soul interactions to be presented to us. You'll recall earlier in this sequence, the kiss scene from #15 was similarly "replayed", but with an entirely different outcome.

Can't say why Pen^2 is there -- maybe Shin-seiki has an explanation.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 00:58 GMT

[Joeshie [ANF]]

While the events from the previous scenes are clearly distored and given a "commentary" by the characters involved, it does not appear that way with the kitchen scene. The scene is very linear and has no interjections that break the scene. Is it not possible to assume that the event is not distored, but was an actual event?

I still think that there is some form of mind-meld, but I am not sure that the kitchen scene is anything more than just a memory now.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:05 GMT

[Gundampilotspaz [ANF]]

While the events from the previous scenes are clearly distored and given a "commentary" by the characters involved, it does not appear that way with the kitchen scene. The scene is very linear and has no interjections that break the scene. Is it not possible to assume that the event is not distored, but was an actual event?

I still think that there is some form of mind-meld, but I am not sure that the kitchen scene is anything more than just a memory now.

Well the way the kitchen scene ends is the biggest take, Shinji chokes Asuka. This never happened before, this is what Shinji wanted to do during the "Kaji is dead" scene, and a few dozen others, but he didn't have the guts. This time he goes ahead and does it.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:27 GMT

[Joeshie [ANF]]

Well the way the kitchen scene ends is the biggest take, Shinji chokes Asuka. This never happened before, this is what Shinji wanted to do during the "Kaji is dead" scene, and a few dozen others, but he didn't have the guts. This time he goes ahead and does it.

But how do we know that this never happened in the actual timeline? Is there some evidence to prove that this never actual happened in reality?

I do think that the scene is a part of the mind-meld as well, but I am to trying to prove to another person that it is. The problem is that he keeps countering with the "but it could be a memory" arguement. So in order to convince him that it is their minds interacting, I need to prove his arguement incorrect.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:34 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Would Shinji ever be able to just strangle Asuka? After she gasped, Asuka didn't move at all, and her feet were dangling. You simply cannot kill someone that quick(and he didn't do that to Asuka, obviously. ;;P) Why would he have even gone back to the hospital if he resented her so much after that?

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:38 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

It seems highly unlikely that Shinji either had sex with or throttled Asuka before complementation. That said all these scenes are in some way based on reality. Most dreams are when you think about it.

The first kitchen scene is a distorted flashback of the kiss scene. The candidate for the second would appear to be the scene where Shinji tells Asuka about Kaji, which would be supported by the following, apparent Shinji POV flashback in Death, (1) as he muses on the lakeside before meeting Kaworu.

The only trouble with this is is that in the scene itself, Asuka is not wearing her baggy yellow T-shirt, but instead is sporting her blue vest(2). Do we chalk this one up on the blooper board, or do we cast out conclusions to the flames and start afresh. I prefer the former option.

Blooper reels aside, the second kitchen scene in paticular could not possibly be a complete real memory. For a start, in it, Asuka rejects Shinji utterly and completely, leading to his cosmic destrado. In the second, Shinji throttles Asuka, something we know could not possibly have happened because
a)Asuka is alive in Air
b) Asuka bears no bruises in EoE
c) Shinji comes crawling to her bedside in Air begging for her to aid him and mentioning NOTHING of any such incident.
d) She slapped him in reality. Here we see nothing. Also no mention of Kaji is made.

As for Pen-pen. His presence could be argued on many grounds. Innocene, casual observer etc... I think his main cinematic role is to express what Asuka cannot, she being too coldly enraged. That is, shock at Shinji's desperate fury. Pen-pen often represents what we as the audience feel in Evangelion as well.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:51 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Yeah, instead of Asuka using violent force of him, Shinji in this used deadlier violent force on her....in themactic connection wih Sho and San, and Rei I and Naoko.^^
^OMF, wasn't when Asuka was mouring(only shown in Death), it was later that evening or later afternoon? I thought that for some reason.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 01:57 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

GSpaz, before he was rejected by Asuka in #26', Shinji had no reason to want to strangle Asuka. His frustration with her was based on her inability to accept the reality that Kaji was dead -- whereas, later, his desire to crush that little neck of hers was based on the fact that he was so coldly rejected.

The kitchen scene recalls the brief NPC scene in #24, where we see the coffee pot go flying, but, after thinking a little bit, I would say that it represents a retake of what happened immediately after*. Asuka breaks down and mourns at the kitchen table (only seen briefly in DEATH), and, in response to this, one could extrapolate that Shinji, as with Misato and Ritsuko, has nothing to say. He is helpless to provide any words of comfort or solace and, like always, runs away.

Pre-3I might be considered Shinji's attempt to correct what he considered a great wrong, on his part... To mend the wound he afflicted upon Asuka by making her face the grim truth about Kaji-senpai. He expresses his desire to help, along with the feelings he's been supressing all this time. "I want to help you, and be with you forever." However, he quickly lapses into desperation, faced with Asuka's cold retort: "Then don't do anything. Don't come near me anymore... Because all you ever do is hurt me."

Asuka gets her revenge for what Shinji told her in #24. She makes HIM face all the truths he would rather not look at, highlighting all of his personal flaws with brutal efficiency. Her bitterness towards him for the Kaji news can only be accentuated by the double-whammy of (A) blaming her and her mama's brutal fate on Shinji's inability to come to their aid, and (B) knowing that not only did he fap at her bedside while she was unconscious, he's been using her as a "side dish" all this time... responding to her sexually, without actually letting HER in on the fun! I certainly can't blame her for being so completely and utterly pissed.

As for why she lets Shinji strangle her -- well, she's already dead, so what does it matter?

* EDIT: Okay, OMF posted while I was writing this, so I didn't take the shirt deal into account. I suppose we could assume that some unspecified amount of time passed between Asuka's "Uso..." and her actually expressing her grief. She is very dense about this matter, after all, so it might take a LEETLE bit for her final defenses against reality to be eroded away. The point is, the pre-3I scene in the kitchen is a retake of the time when Asuka was crying and Shinji did nothing. Shinji obviously knew it was happening, as it is presented as a memory in "DEATH", and he clearly did nothing about it, even though it was his 'fault'.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 02:12 GMT

[Gundampilotspaz [ANF]]

GSpaz, before he was rejected by Asuka in #26', Shinji had no reason to want to strangle Asuka. His frustration with her was based on her inability to accept the reality that Kaji was dead -- whereas, later, his desire to crush that little neck of hers was based on the fact that he was so coldly rejected.

In truth that rejection has happened a dozen times by both of them. Of course just Kaji's death wasn't enough to set Shinji off it was a factor in building too it. Shinji was also torn by Kaji's death, and having Asuka deny it over and over is no way to have that begin to heal.

But the Kitchen scene was really a combination of all that fustration into one, thats why Anno showed us the other confrontations between Asuka and Shinji leading upto the Kitchen scene.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 04:21 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Essentially, the kitchen scene is a distorted 'retake' of something that already happened (Shinji telling Asuka that Kaji isn't coming back). Not a dream, though -- just a stage for these soul-to-soul interactions to be presented to us. You'll recall earlier in this sequence, the kiss scene from #15 was similarly "replayed", but with an entirely different outcome.

Can't say why Pen^2 is there -- maybe Shin-seiki has an explanation.

The Pre-3I Instumentality sequence has 4 main parts: Misato/Kaji boinking, #15 Kissing Scene rehash, the train scene, and the Kitchen Scene, which references the #24' "Kaji's dead" scene. The two scenes that dramatically feature Asuka ripping into Shinji both reference occasions from real life when Shinji managed (unintentionally) to profoundly hurt Asuka; they are included because of how negatively significant they were to her. The #15 kissing fiasco was the start of Asuka's downward spiral in the latter part of the series, and the #24' "Kaji's dead" deal was the final blow that pushed her into suicidal despair. In both cases, Shinji seems to have had no concept of how he had hurt her. In the case of #24', he wonders afterwards what has happened to Asuka, oblivious to the effect his words had on her. In #26', thru the magic of Complementation, he is finding out, in a very harsh and painfull way, how bitter Asuka's feelings towards him had become.

As for Pen^2's presence in the Kitchen scene, I don't attach any particular significance to it, beyond the fact that he is always presented as the witness to what goes on between those two at home. I would imagine that he was around for the real-life confrontation in #24' that is being referenced here, so I don't find it strange that he is included in this version of the scene, any more so than the coffee pot, or the potted plant by the doorway...

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 04:53 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

While P3II Part 4 references "Kaji's Dead", it would seem, as I mention above in #12, to be a "retake" of some undisclosed (save for DEATH) moment afterwards, when Shinji catches Asuka finally breaking down over the news. Unless you have some other idea about where the DEATH shot fits in... Most of the stuff I said in #12 came to me while I was typing, and, while it felt like epiphany at the time, I could be completely off track.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 05:02 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

While P3II Part 4 references "Kaji's Dead", it would seem, as I mention above in #12, to be a "retake" of some undisclosed (save for DEATH) moment afterwards, when Shinji catches Asuka finally breaking down over the news. Unless you have some other idea about where the DEATH shot fits in... Most of the stuff I said in #12 came to me while I was typing, and, while it felt like epiphany at the time, I could be completely off track.

No, actually that is a very interesting take that I had never even considered: that the shot of Asuka grieving at the kitchen table was something Shinji witnessed. (The other quick cuts are all of stuff we know Shinji did witness personally: Misato in #21, the Rei clones, and Ritsuko's breakdown in #23.) The only problem is this line from #24:
(LTP)
Shinji: Where has Asuka been?
(What should I talk to her about?
Tell her about Ayanami?)

He doesn't seem to realize here that Asuka's disappearance has anything to do with him, BUT... keep in mind that the whole "Asuka finds out that Kaji's dead" deal was a DC/Death addition, so that line had nothing to do with any of that in its original context. I would say that in the DC/Death continuity (which, after all, is the one that really counts), you might actually have hit on something significant in post #11...

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 05:29 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

The Pre-3I Instumentality sequence has 4 main parts: Misato/Kaji boinking, #15 Kissing Scene rehash, the train scene, and the Kitchen Scene, which references the #24' "Kaji's dead" scene. The two scenes that dramatically feature Asuka ripping into Shinji both reference occasions from real life when Shinji managed (unintentionally) to profoundly hurt Asuka; they are included because of how negatively significant they were to her. The #15 kissing fiasco was the start of Asuka's downward spiral in the latter part of the series, and the #24' "Kaji's dead" deal was the final blow that pushed her into suicidal despair. In both cases, Shinji seems to have had no concept of how he had hurt her. In the case of #24', he wonders afterwards what has happened to Asuka, oblivious to the effect his words had on her. In #26', thru the magic of Complementation, he is finding out, in a very harsh and painfull way, how bitter Asuka's feelings towards him had become.

When you put it in terms like that, and actually recap all of his misdeeds in one short burst of infromation... how much Shinji contributed to her downfall... He is such a moron! I don't really have the greatest amount of love for Asuka as a character - though I have discovered a hithterto untapped supply of sympathy for her, while researching for my recent posts in the Shinji & Asuka thread. Even with that being the case, I still find myself getting quite wound up about the way his fear and his cluelessness have hurt Asuka.

Perhaps the - really strange - way I'm feeling right now (and it is strange, to feel as though an anime character has made you angry) is because I can identify with Shinji. I'm not quite as bad as he is, I think, but I can usually understand what sort of an emotional place he's coming from, and when I read your concise analysis of how badly he hurt Asuka... I felt... sort of betrayed. If I can identify with Shinji, then it's almost as though I could do the things he did. As though I could hurt someone the way he hurt her.

Sometimes, it's not entirely pleasant to understand this particular anime better.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 05:52 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

The Shinji/Asuka relationship stands as a lesson to us all about how critical proper communcation really is: being sure that others know what you really want and how you really feel, rather than assuming (or just hoping) they will 'catch on' or locking these things inside yourself altogether. Pain is unavoidable, but I generally find that proper communication yields less overall than allowing things to build up and brutally explode later...

Re: the significance of the DEATH cut, when I was thinking about it my brain wandered back to something I had translated for you, Shin-seiki, from the end of episode #23:


Following up* his dealings with Misato and Asuka, for the third time Shinji has nothing to say

This line seems to imply that Shinji has already been witness to Misato and Asuka's respective "tragedies", and responded in helpless silence to both, by the time this scene occurs. Somewhat curious, considering that I can't think of anything prior to this scene where Shinji has had a dealing with Asuka that would qualify as the "2nd time" he has reacted in this way to someone else's emotional breakdown... My instinct would take this to mean that the flashbacks from #24 and DEATH actually occured at some indisclosed time between the end of #21 and the end of #23 -- except that this comment was intact in the pre-NPC script, before said flashbacks even existed! Curious, very curious. What do you guys think about this?

* "Following up" doesn't sound quite right... A grammatically sound replacement would be nice. Sometimes I forget proper English when I'm trying to grasp the meaning of another language.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 06:19 GMT

[Lastie [ANF]]

Perhaps the - really strange - way I'm feeling right now (and it is strange, to feel as though an anime character has made you angry) is because I can identify with Shinji. I'm not quite as bad as he is, I think, but I can usually understand what sort of an emotional place he's coming from, and when I read your concise analysis of how badly he hurt Asuka... I felt... sort of betrayed. If I can identify with Shinji, then it's almost as though I could do the things he did. As though I could hurt someone the way he hurt her.

Sometimes, it's not entirely pleasant to understand this particular anime better.

Possibly because it does a surprisingly good job of laying bare the cold harsh facts of life; that it is incredibly easy to hurt people without trying. We're all fragile beings, both physically, mentally and emotionally, and we all have an aspect that to us is most fragile, be it fear of rejection, desire to be noticed, etc. Whenever we encounter a situation in life that gives question to the validity of these aspects we are naturally injured emtionally, recoiling from the possibility that what we perceive about ourselves could be wrong, or might not be in the state we imagine them to be.

You're not the only one to identify certain aspects of yourself with Shinji, Soluzar, and I suppose everyone here as some part of Shinji within him (which could explain why he's so disliked, as no one likes looking at the parts of themselves that they're ashamed of). To me, Shinji reminds me of my fear of social interaction; I've never been, and probably never will, be a particularly confident speaker to other people (which is probably why I like internet forums, the distance from other people helps me collect my thoughts). To me this is the aspect I mentioned above; the one that causes me pain should it be questioned and revealed to be at fault. I'm come to accept it and build stronger foundations to it to prevent emotional hurt through it, but this has only come about through age.

Shinji and Asuka on the other hand, as has been pointed out, are still very young and have yet to learn to shield these vulnerabilities from the ways life has of hurting them. Maybe they will never learn, as many do not, and will always be hurt through these aspects of their character that they try to shield and hide away behind possibly falsely-constructed personality traits (Asuka's bullying tendencies anyone?). But they're Human, with all the good and bad that involves, and while they long for the positive emotions other Humans can give to them there's no escaping the negative ones to (Hedgehog's Dilemma?).

Perhaps this is the main message Eva tries to convey to us - that of the acceptance that the distance between each indivudal Human will always result in hurt and pain as well as love and friendship. You take the good with the bad basically; you can't avoid hurting another Human being any more than you can avoid loving another. It's just something you have to accept, and remember, so you can be more aware of your relationships with others and prevent more hurt. Unfortunately, it is often because of poor communication that this hurt occurs (as evident through the whole Asuka/Shinji relationship), and sometimes we learn, and sometimes we don't. You can't blame anyone, because sometimes it's good to be hurt, if only to accept your own faults as part of what it is to be Human. Good with the bad, basically.

Erugh, I've rambled again. But if there's one thing that Eva is so widely loved for - it's for painfully reminding us of the Human condition. We love, we hate, we hurt, we enjoy, we feel sad, we feel happy, take away any one of these and all disappear. Eva has its feel-good moments, Eva has its reach-for-a-tissue moments, Eva makes you reflect on your life. Which is both its greatest triumph, and its underlying critical fault. But that's something for another time, like when I've finished the series.

And I'll stop now, before my keyboard collapses from over-use.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 11:25 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

Following up* his dealings with Misato and Asuka, for the third time Shinji has nothing to say

This line seems to imply that Shinji has already been witness to Misato and Asuka's respective "tragedies", and responded in helpless silence to both, by the time this scene occurs. Somewhat curious, considering that I can't think of anything prior to this scene where Shinji has had a dealing with Asuka that would qualify as the "2nd time" he has reacted in this way to someone else's emotional breakdown... My instinct would take this to mean that the flashbacks from #24 and DEATH actually occured at some indisclosed time between the end of #21 and the end of #23 -- except that this comment was intact in the pre-NPC script, before said flashbacks even existed! Curious, very curious. What do you guys think about this?

I believe the incident with Asuka was referring to his inability to cross the police barrier at the end of 22'. This dispite his selfless determination to sally to her aid before Gendou used the lance. Once out of the Eva it would seem, "Muteki Na Shinji-Sama" quickly wilts to be replaced with someone who can't even gather the courage to comfort someone so desperately in need of it. In his defence, Asuka would seem on the surface to be exceptionally vexed, but I reckon this was yet another obfuscated scream for a hug from her, one which he again could not decypher.

Or perhaps the Shinji POV in death occurred before he told her about Kaji's demise. Her pose here has overtures of her desperate prayers for Kaji to save her, in the pilot seat in 22'. If this moment occured before he told her, perhaps she's still pleading for Kaji to reappear and save her from her torment, here.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 13:01 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

It couldn't refer to the end of #22, because he at least tried talking to her.

Originally posted on: 12-May-2005, 13:37 GMT