Imitatation is the sincerest form of rip-off

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Shin-seiki [ANF]
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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

I recently downloaded, and have been watching, the imfamous shoujo anime masterpiece Oniisama E "Brother, Dear Brother" (1991), based on the classic manga by Riyoko Ikeda, who also wrote 'Rose of Versailles'. It's a dark, over-heated, melodramatic story of an innocent young girl's experiences in an all-girls' academy: it has tragedy and betrayals, suicide, drug addiction, and implied lesbianism; in other words, all the stuff that makes life juicy and interesting Image

It is intesting to note, in regard to where Anno may have come up with the names of his characters, that two of the main characters in Oniisama E are Rei Asaka, aka "Hana no Saint Just" (Saint Just of the Flowers), and Kaoru Orihara, aka "Kaoru no Kimi" (Prince Kaoru).

It is plenty obvious to me that Anno was familiar with Oniisama E; in fact, he included an hommage (a polite word for rip-off) to it in #18 of NGE. As I was watching episode 04 of Oniisama, I suddenly was like "Woah! That sure looks familiar!" Both scenes take place at sunset, in a playground situated on a steep hillside overlooking the city, and in both, two teenage girls who are best friends have a heart to heart talk. Here, for your edification, are the two scenes in question, in their entirety:
Oniisama E 04
NGE Ep18

The resemblance between the two scenes is particularly notable in these cuts:

Image Image
(note the swingset behind Asuka and Hikari)

Image Image
(the resemblance is more striking when you actually watch the cut, as the shot lingers on the character's feet for several seconds in both cases)

and, of course...
Image Image
(no comment necessary)

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 11:57 AM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

One of my friends started showing me this anime a while back... You could probably have a blast dissecting all of the similarities between it and "Utena" (and knowing you...) -- but NGE? Just looking at the screenshots, I don't see a whole lot of blatant "OMFG!!!" similarity, except for the sandbox and the foot shot. Maybe I just need to watch the episode in question again...

The Rei--Kaoru bit is interesting, though. Anno didn't mention "Oniisama e" when he was running through his sources for character names, but he also did mention that he couldn't remember Satsukawa's inspiration for the name "Kaworu"... I guess, for all we know, it could come from here. (The characters Rei and Ka(w)oru are linked in both series, which is kind of suspicious...)

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 12:23 PM

Shin-seiki [ANF]
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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Reichu wrote:One of my friends started showing me this anime a while back... You could probably have a blast dissecting all of the similarities between it and "Utena" (and knowing you...) -- but NGE? Just looking at the screenshots, I don't see a whole lot of blatant "OMFG!!!" similarity, except for the sandbox and the foot shot. Maybe I just need to watch the episode in question again...

Well, I wouldn't read too much into the resemblance of the two scenes, beyond what I mentioned already. I think Anno just threw that stuff in to see if people (remember, Oniisama E would have been fairly fresh in the audience's memory in '96) were paying attention.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 12:31 PM

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Yeah, I watched that episode myself yesterday and nearly cracked up. I'm going to keep my eyes open for any more similarities.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 05:20 PM

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Postby NakedEYE666 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Pffft, a rip-off would be like if there was a black haired, selfish, shy young character named Ikari Shinji who hated his father, piloted his mother, lived with a hot female guardian, and ran away a lot.

As for this show... I want to see it now.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 05:45 PM

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Postby RahOtaku [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Most playgrounds have swings and sandboxes? I know the playgrounds I've seen have those.

Most animators create from their imaginations. Anno's Highschool Playground has a swing and sandbox. I've seen pictures of the playground of his highschool. I even have pictures of Anno doing Ultraman poses on the top of the Slides.

Most likely this wasn't copied. But of course, that's only my opinion.

a lot of anime's have class room scenes. etc. Did they copy those to?

Image


Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 07:38 PM

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Postby Anime Gee [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:17 am

Hahahaha!! Image

Don't take things to seriously. Image

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 07:44 PM

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Postby Dilandau [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:18 am

A rip-off would mean stealing key ideas, plot devices, or characters. But an homage is just that; a lean towards another source, acknowledging it for whatever reason. Also keep in mind that the names Rei and Kaoru are very common in anime.

I'd say this was a case of theft if the material indicated was very specific or important, but it's not really. I'm sure there are plenty of series or movies you could point to which have a notable influence from something else that inspired the creator(s).

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 07:45 PM

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:18 am

RahOtaku wrote:Most playgrounds have swings and sandboxes? I know the playgrounds I've seen have those.

Most animators create from their imaginations. Anno's Highschool Playground has a swing and sandbox. I've seen pictures of the playground of his highschool. I even have pictures of Anno doing Ultraman poses on the top of the Slides.

Most likely this wasn't copied. But of course, that's only my opinion.

a lot of anime's have class room scenes. etc. Did they copy those to?

Image

I'll just repeat myself, since this part seems not to have penetrated your gourd the first time around:
Both scenes take place at sunset, in a playground situated on a steep hillside overlooking the city, and in both, two teenage girls who are best friends have a heart to heart talk.

Also, it's seems a bit much to label as mere coincidence that both scenes throw in a shot of a sandbox with a toy shovel and pail that is apropos of nothing else going on in the scene...

And I was just being facetious about this being a rip-off; it is certainly an hommage. I mean, come on! NGE is crowded with little nods to other anime (particularly of the Mecha genre) and SF movies and shows, from beginning to end. Why not accept that that is what is going on here, as well?

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 08:56 PM

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Postby animeburn [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

I say watch Macross and this show back to back. You'll slap yourself over the head when the part about the .00001% genetic dif between us and the aliens show up Image.

Originally posted on: 06.27.2004, 10:12 PM

NakedEYE666 [ANF]
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Postby NakedEYE666 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

I'm sure Evangelion was doing a homage, it's so similar. I just disliked your use of the word rip-off, due to my little insecurity based on my belief that nothing is "original" in the truest sense of the word, coupled with the fact that many of my favorite things are built upon other things particularly clearly, while still being intensely influential themselves, and considered very original by many (myself probably included there).

Oh, and what was the name of this show again? I'll have to keep it in mind as a possible viewification.

Originally posted on: 06.28.2004, 11:29 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

NakedEYE666 wrote:I just disliked your use of the word rip-off, due to my little insecurity based on my belief that nothing is "original" in the truest sense of the word

Well, believe it or not, there is such a thing in this world as plagiarism, which is NOT homage and really CAN be called a "rip-off". This I know from first-hand experience.

Originally posted on: 06.28.2004, 04:14 PM

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

Pffft, a rip-off would be like if there was a black haired, selfish, shy young character named Ikari Shinji who hated his father, piloted his mother, lived with a hot female guardian, and ran away a lot.

Exactly. Which is why Eva rip-offs don't exist.

Originally posted on: 06.28.2004, 05:49 PM

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Postby RahOtaku [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

I'll just repeat myself, since this part seems not to have penetrated your gourd the first time around:
Quote:
Both scenes take place at sunset, in a playground situated on a steep hillside overlooking the city, and in both, two teenage girls who are best friends have a heart to heart talk. -Shin-


haha... you're absolutely right. It didn't at all penetrate my gourd. Actually it didn't even dent my gourd.

Just look at the way you TITLEd your post.

"Imitatation is the sincerest form of rip-off "

Now how does "Imitation is the Sincerest form
of [b]Rip-off" sound like homage?

I'm not saying you never mentioned hommage. You did and you even kindly gave your definition of Hommage.[/b]

Anno... included an hommage (a polite word for rip-off)

I don't know. Maybe my gourd is too thick. Image But I keep hearing you call Rip-off.
Anyone else thought Shin was saying this was a rip-off?

I mean its true we have [b]2 classmates sitting in a playground talking after school.
And as a coincidence [b]since it's after school, the sun is setting!
And they are both sitting, Not standing! And there is a swing! And on the swing, the girl's legs moves! And there is a Sandbox! And guess what more? THE SANDbox has a SANDbucket and SANDshovel! I mean what's the possibility that sandbuckets and shovels are found in sandboxes?[/b]
Image

Originally posted on: 06.28.2004, 06:01 PM

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

RahOtaku wrote:

I mean its true we have 2 classmates sitting in a playground talking after school. And as a coincidence since it's after school, the sun is setting!
And [b]they are both sitting, Not standing! And there is a swing! And on the swing, the girl's legs moves! And there is a Sandbox! And guess what more? THE SANDbox has a SANDbucket and SANDshovel! I mean what's the possibility that sandbuckets and shovels are found in sandboxes?[/b]
Image

Is that supposed to be biting sarcasm? Image Image

As I said, I watched that episode myself last Saturday; they're practically the same scene.

Originally posted on: 06.28.2004, 08:16 PM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 am

RahOtaku wrote:Now how does "Imitation is the Sincerest form of [b]Rip-off" sound like homage?[/b]

Methinks he was being facetious. He's made it rather clear in his subsequent statements that he doesn't think the scene is a "complete" ripoff, in any case...

Originally posted on: 06.29.2004, 10:54 AM

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Postby RahOtaku [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:20 am

...he doesn't think the scene is a "complete" ripoff, in any case...-Hewhopoststuff


I like the way how you added "complete" to your statement. It's very subtle but makes a point.

Image


Originally posted on: 06.29.2004, 01:12 PM

HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]
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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:20 am

Whatever point I was making, I have no clue what it was, heh.

Originally posted on: 06.29.2004, 10:44 PM

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:20 am

I'm bumping this to celebrate having finally finished watching all 39 episodes of this show. Yes, Shin-seiki and I survived the"Dropped Flowers" scene from Ep. 33. We survived the dragged-out ending where each major character recieved an entire episode to resolve her issues. We even survived the infamous ep. 26, which caused Oniisama E to be banned in at least 2 countries. We survived the absurdly low quality fansubs that Scott downloaded, which seemed to be taken from a 5th generation VHS copy. (Except for the last 4 episodes, which were taken from a DVD and looked great.)

A great show.

Originally posted on: 04.18.2005, 02:19 PM

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:20 am

<<We>>

Care to elaborate?

Originally posted on: 04.19.2005, 05:33 AM


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