The Dead Sea

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

I've been having a think about the "Dead Sea" in Evangelion, mentioned in episode #21', and vicariously through the "Dea Sea Scrolls". What is this Dead Sea, and what does it have to do with the scrolls. Rampant speculation abounds.

I think that most people would agree that the Dead Sea in Evangelion is not the real world Dead Sea in the Jordan Rift Valley. Rather, like the Lance of Longinus, Adam, Lilith, and the rest of the Kabbalistic imagery and symbolism in the show, the Dead Sea, and the Scrolls, are something completely different, and only named as such "to sound cool", or at best carry across some loose general connotation into the show.

So what is this Dead Sea? Apart from being mentioned vicariously through the scrolls, in episode #21' we are given the following dialouge:

Scientist : What about the Lance of Longinus?
Scientist : It's still where it was brought ashore after arriving from
the Dead Sea last week.

But we know that Adam was found buried with the Lance. But the Lance was also involved in the Antarctic contact experiment ("withdraw the Lance"). So can we presume that the Lance was removed from Adam, Adam itself transported elsewhere, and the more inflexible Lance transported afterwards.

Working off this notion, it might be reasonable to assume that both the Lance, and Adam, were found in or close to this "Dead Sea" region, which when one thinks about it, is likely in the Antarctic Geofront.

Why call it the Dead Sea? Are there any analogies? Well, in the Hakone Geofront, we are shown Lilith in Terminal Dogma, suspended over what can only be described as a "Sea" of LCL. If there were any doubt, we are in fact shown a large ship floating in this presumably vast lake, in episode #21'

ImageImage

Lilith was presumably found in a "Sea of LCL". LCL is taken to be the primordial soup. The soup of Life?. What about Adam?

If Adam was found in a similar sea, then why call it the "Dead Sea"? Salt content? Hardly. Perhaps it was called as such because it was somehow toxic or otherwise unsupportive of life. Could this be? Perhaps if Adam derived lifeforms and Lilith Derived Lifeforms are different enough then perhaps what is lifegiving to one is inert to the other, or perhaps even toxic. Any evidence for this?

Well, in episode #12 we are shown the "Dead world" surrounding Antarctia. An effect caused in some way, by Adam's explosion.
Image

In episode #12 Fuyutsuki refers to Antarctica as "a world of death which permits no life to exist". In episode #21', we are told of the effects in slightly more detail, again by Fuyutsuki:
Fuyutsuki : A change in atmospheric components over a perfectly defined area...
Fuyutsuki : The complete extermination of all life right down to microorganisms....

Could the "Dead Sea" in the Antarctic Geofront have been such a place. Toxic, or at least uninhabitable to "Lilim", i.e. earth based life. Could this be a kind of rapid culture solution in which Adam and its offspring would thrive, but is designed only for them? Produced by Adam, as LCL is by Lilith, for the purposes of nurturing its offspring?

Your thoughts?

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:12 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

I already made one suggestion here that I thought was pretty reasonable. Seele have presumably been around for a rather long time, and the Dead Sea region would be an important place from an archaeological perspective. They'd presumably have a preexisting research facility there, anyway. Why not name the Scrolls after the place where they were studied and deciphered?

So while I think you're thinking too hard about that one (they're either talking about the real Dead Sea or calling the South Pole a figurative one), what happens to the South Pole as a result of 2I is interesting turf I haven't fully explored. Still translating the scripts for that one.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:31 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

ONe additional point here is that wherever the Dead Sea region is, it's likely the Dead Sea Scrolls were found there as well. Hence the name. It seems more likely that the scrolls would have been discovered in or around one of the Geofronts.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:43 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

Yeah, I postulated the "SDSS as artifacts sent by FAC" bit around the holidays. And I'm trying to tell you that the "Dead Sea" region is in all likelihood nothing more than the one we're familiar with, because Seele would be associated with that place anyway, and studying crap there is more convenient than studying it in a place like Antarctica (especially when you aren't yet preparing to wipe out a continent and research team, and stuff). The Dead Sea that Kozo mentions in #12 was figurative. There is no other reference in the show to a Dead Sea that cannot just be the real Dead Sea.

Sometimes the simplest solution really is the best one.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:50 GMT

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:15 am

I always kinda wondered if the SDSS had anything to do with Keel's failed attempts to read braille. Some of the wacky esoteric crap in the SDSS and the prayers they say during EoE are just badly translated children's braille readers.
Also they put a blind man in charge of the cover-up of 2I that doesn't make a hell a lot of sense....he can't even see what he's cover-up.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:54 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Wait... How do you know he's blind at that point, again?

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:55 GMT

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

The glasses, made me figure he was probably blind.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:56 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Isn't that sort of a leap? Image

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 00:58 GMT

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Well no more of a leap than most theories...besides dark glasses like that are often worn by blind people to disguise the semi-creepiness of the eyes.
Anyways it would be funny if the whole scenario SEELE created was based off of some poor blind guy's failed attempts to read braille from a children's book.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 01:03 GMT

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Postby Kokuei [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

that would be hilarious. if something that would directly changes the lives of everybody and everything in the world to one life collective being. was based off something so frivilous as that. *highly amused*

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 04:19 GMT

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Didn't Kouzou mention something about Antarctica being the dead sea in ep12?

Although it does seem to make more sense if they were named after the real Dead Sea. The sea seen in ep12 wasn't created until after 2I and if the geofront of the white moon had a name (or if there was a body of water in it that had a name) it would make more sense if the black moon (or the body of water in it) were given a name.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 05:38 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

The "Amen" scene in #22 doesn't seem to make mention of anything besides "LCL solution" and a "frigate".

Far as Kozo goes, he says, "Masa ni Shinkai sono mono da yo". Far as I can tell, that basically means, uh, something like, "This is just like the Dead Sea itself!" It's clearly a comparison.

If you're looking for a Dead Sea beyond the real one, or the one Kozo just denoted, well, wouldn't be the first red herring people have gone after.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 07:42 GMT

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Postby Seele08 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

"This is just like the Dead Sea itself!"
'Cept for the fact that it isn't red, doesn't have a glowing green sky above it, isn't flooded with religious tourists visiting the "Holy Land", is full of salt and isn't freakin cold. Beyond that its virtually identical!

Yeah, I know nothing lives in it.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 07:53 GMT

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Postby Siendra [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

What he meant was "This is the true/real Dead Sea." You can't translate it literally.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 20:35 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

(Siendra... you're alive?!?)

Well, that is just Reichu's Engrish in Action. (I am still working my brain around masa ni.) Are you saying he literally meant it was the Dead Sea? Image

The other time I remember them using masa ni in NGE is when the JSSDF badasses say, "Masa ni akuma ka!" when EVA-01 comes out. That's more or less "Is it the Devil himself?!", no? I don't think we're talking in literals there. Unless people want to take my Yui-sama/Sammael Theorem places where it REALLY shouldn't go. Image

EDIT: But in any case, while I don't think anyone should obsess over names here (since Seele's DEAD SEA Scrolls would, I have suggested, come from BOTH Moons, not just one...), the idea of the Seeds containing more than just a little (relatively speaking) humanoid with an attached Guf, some old pieces of paper, and alien architecture/gizmos is an interesting one. Mayhaps that ol' theory (me and Dr. Nick, was it?) of the Moons containing some liquid (and/or other??) medium, which we see released upon the respective destructions of the Moons, still has something going for it after all.

Reichu will report back once she has done more TransRation.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 10:15 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

I really don't think that the Dead Sea in Evangelion is the real world Dead Sea. Remember, all the other kabbalistic references were not their namesakes, but were completely seperate entities in Evangelion.

Moving the Lance to the northern hemisphere doesn't seem like a very prudent plan. Why transport the Lance all that way, only to bring it all the way back again? Consider the difficulty in its transportation that we are shown in epsiode #12. It required an aircraft carrier and an entire battlegroup as an escort. Why go to all the trouble. Would it not have been better to leave it in the Geofront, where it was originally found?

A though also occurs about the Scrolls, from an earlier thought here, that instead of the scrolls being a prophetic oracle, they were instead simply an encyclopedia of sorts from which future events could be derived.

Consider then that perhaps the Dead Sea scrolls are simply a biological textbook, highly detailed, of the anatomy, genetics, biology, etc, ect of Adam derived organisms. Perhaps any similar document found in the Hakone Geofront, would simply be on the biology of Lilith derived organisims. Hardly a prophetic guide, as most information was already known?

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 22:04 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:16 am

Yeah, I don't think that the scrolls are prophecies, either. But don't dismiss Lilith's scrolls altogether. They'd say stuff about (A) Lilith herself and (B) LDO souls (including Fruit of Knowledge, etc.). Dunno about the Spear. Depends on whether or not Lilith departed with it, which is something we can't know.

On another point, in #21', they say this:
Old Man C "What about the Spear of Longinus?"
Man A "It's still where it was brought ashore after arriving from the Dead Sea last week."
Old Man B "Isn't some processing necessary before it's taken underground? Will it be okay?"
Before you go on a wild goose chase, a straightforward reading should be seriously considered, and if, and ONLY if, it does not work should it be disposed of. (This is a VERY important principle to keep in mind, at all times.) Ergo: The Spear really WAS transported to the Antarctic Research Base from the actual Dead Sea. (I've already explained the practical reasons for this, which as far as I can tell make up for the impracticalities you called.) It was subsequently transported down into the White Moon where Adam was being kept ("underground") and experimented upon by Katsuragi-tachi. (Obviously Adam was down at least a ways, otherwise the comment "It's going to surface!" would have been sort of pointless.)

Another thing I'd like to draw to your attention is that the DSS in NGE are actually specifically referred to as the "Secret Dead Sea Scrolls" 裏死海文書. (Actually, Ura/Ri Shikai Bunsho. I haven't been able to find a single definition for 裏 -- i.e., here -- that has anything to do with "secret". Then, I don't really get the term, period.). They actually HAVE bothered to make a differentiation in this case. For what it's worth.

Also, unlike a lot of the other things -- Adam, Lilith, blah blah blah -- there actually IS a real Dead Sea in the NGE world. Don't write it off.

Of course, I can't convince you of anything. Only warn you of the perils of red herrings. (Which seems to be a recurring theme here, incidentally... Image ) For whatever value you attach to my opinion, I really do think you are chasing one.

But I DO think you were onto something interesting with the other bit. Sammael tells me that you should stick with that. (Not that Sammael is always right. But often.)

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 22:37 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:17 am

Reichu wrote:Another thing I'd like to point out is that the DSS in NGE are actually specifically referred to as the "Secret Dead Sea Scrolls" 裏死海文書. (Actually, Ura/Ri Shikai Bunsho. I haven't been able to find a single definition for 裏 -- i.e., here -- that has anything to do with "secret". Then, I don't really get the term, period.).



With all the connotations that seems to have, of being "on the inside" and thus concealed, the English word that comes to mind is occult in the original sense of the word "Hidden from view; concealed." The translation to "Secret" is plausible given the other, accreted meanings of the word.

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 22:49 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:17 am

Huh... I think you hit that one on the nail. "Secret" works well as a, er, "colloquial" (?) translation. "Occult DSS" sounds kind of weird.

(This still leaves me boggled as to another, non-NGE related instance of ura I ran across. But never mind that.)

In other news... Oh, dear. OMF! Look at what you -- and Sammael-sama -- made me do!

Image

Well, it IS, at least, "sea"-related.

(And I have a feeling that this image will be VERY useful in the future. :rubs hands together schemingly: )

Originally posted on: 16-Jan-2006, 23:34 GMT

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:17 am

Although, I wouldn't doubt that there is information akin to an encyclopedia in the SDSS, in ep17 Gendo says:

Gendou: Incidents missed by The Dead Sea Scrolls may occur.

Which kinda makes me think some kind of timetable, series of events, or perhaps even prophecies were also in the scrolls

Originally posted on: 17-Jan-2006, 00:15 GMT


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