Yet another EoE Questions Thread

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:05 am

I just got done watching EoE again and I had some observations/questions:

- Gendo says: "The only way I'll be able to see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith." My question is, why does he need to fuse them? Why can't Lilith do it on her own?

- If the Harpy Evas have S2 engines, why do they need Eva-01?

- Fuyutski says that Seele wants to use Eva-01 as a medium. What does he mean by medium?

- Why is Seele so dead set on the "destruction of the ego of the pilot of Eva-01"? How will that help "complete" humanity?

Thanks.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 12:04 PM

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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:05 am

Might not be the best person to answer these but:

- Gendo says: "The only way I'll be able to see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith." My question is, why does he need to fuse them? Why can't Lilith do it on her own?

She just can't apparently.

- If the Harpy Evas have S2 engines, why do they need Eva-01?

Because it is a "clone" of Lilith.

- Fuyutski says that Seele wants to use Eva-01 as a medium. What does he mean by medium?

EVA-01 + Lance of Longinus = Tree of Life
The roots and branches reached for Earth and "Heaven/God"

- Why is Seele so dead set on the "destruction of the ego of the pilot of Eva-01"? How will that help "complete" humanity?

I don't know where that line is, but I assume so that Shinji couldn't alter instrumentality by being inside EVA-01.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 01:39 PM

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Postby animeotaku99 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:07 am

I just thought of something, If you can fully understand EoE r maybe even the series, You are need to rethink it cuz it can never be fully understood.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 01:42 PM

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Postby TS-Scorpio [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:07 am

animeotaku99 wrote:I just thought of something, If you can fully understand EoE r maybe even the series, You are need to rethink it cuz it can never be fully understood.

I'm sure it could. Just put yourslef in Anno's mindset. It is just a story afterall.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 01:52 PM

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Postby Fullmetalshadow [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:08 am

it hurts this show does, why cant they be straight forward be like aight

heres the deal

theres these bad *** mofo's who wanna combine all of our souls into one supreme being and this is the reason for it.....(wat is that reason btw?)
and then theres this guy named Shinji...hes a prick who always mopes around and j***s off to girls while they're sleeping in the hospital but is really kind hearted apparently who is desperately afraid of being disliked to the point that he does what ever is asked of him. Hes had a ****ty life up until the beginning of the series and blah blah blah and he starts to fight these sort of monsters nicknamed "angels" and blah blah blah a lot of nude scenes and blah blah blah lots of screaming and longimus and stuff

good series tho

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 01:59 PM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:08 am

kaos wrote:- Gendo says: "The only way I'll be able to see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith." My question is, why does he need to fuse them? Why can't Lilith do it on her own?

Speculation: On her own, Lilith can't do much of anything but guide the process of 3I. Gendo wants that power, but he also wants the power of a god (Adam) as well. So his goal is to fuse himself with the two of them, so that Gendo has both godlike power and control over 3I.

- If the Harpy Evas have S2 engines, why do they need Eva-01?

Because they need ten Evas with S2 engines in order to make the Tree of Sephiroth (SEELE had three more Evas that weren't built in time for 3I).

- Fuyutski says that Seele wants to use Eva-01 as a medium. What does he mean by medium?

I'm starting to think that "medium" in EoE refers to all of the Evas, and not just Eva-01. SEELE wants to create the Tree of Sephiroth in the sky, so they use Yui and the Eva series to do so. In this case, the Evas are acting as mediums because they're enacting SEELE's will.

- Why is Seele so dead set on the "destruction of the ego of the pilot of Eva-01"? How will that help "complete" humanity?

At this point, SEELE realizes that the fate of 3I rests in Shinji's hands (i.e. he can continue it or stop it). If Shinji's ego is obliterated, then the rest of humanity will follow suit, which is what SEELE wants.

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 02:28 PM

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Postby Hekym [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:08 am

TS-Scorpio wrote:I'm sure it could. Just put yourslef in Anno's mindset. It is just a story afterall.

The sad thing is that his midset was going all over the place along with the production team's, so you have to take that into account too. Image

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 03:22 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:08 am

Blader5489 wrote:I'm starting to think that "medium" in EoE refers to all of the Evas, and not just Eva-01.

The line in question referred only to EVA-01. "In 20th Century Japan..."

@kaos: Some crap on "medium" starting here. (And not quite finished with the "medium has something to do with dead Angels" idea, either.)

Originally posted on: 07.30.2006, 09:42 PM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:08 am

Reichu wrote:The line in question referred only to EVA-01. "In 20th Century Japan..."

@kaos: Some crap on "medium" starting here. (And not quite finished with the "medium has something to do with dead Angels" idea, either.)

So as far as "medium" is concerned:

The thread seems to be saying that Lilith is connected to the space inside the Black Moon. So souls enter through Lilith's palms and then end up in the black moon (the same way Unit-01 entered the shadow-Leliel and wound up in the sphere-Leliel). So Lilith is the medium through which souls enter the Black Moon.

So it would seem that Eva-01 is meant to be another possbile medium of souls. But the question is... how do souls get into her?

Well, remember those eyes that form on her after the SoL wraps itself around Eva-01? I think those represent the the passage of souls because right after that, Shinji starts hallucinating about Asuka and Misato who are both dead. In other words, bodyless souls are going into Eva-01.

So maybe Seele's plan was to have the Harpy-Evas used their AATF to melt everyone, then have Eva-01 would act as a DoG into the Black Moon.

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 07:45 AM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

kaos wrote:So as far as "medium" is concerned:

The thread seems to be saying that Lilith is connected to the space inside the Black Moon. So souls enter through Lilith's palms and then end up in the black moon (the same way Unit-01 entered the shadow-Leliel and wound up in the sphere-Leliel). So Lilith is the medium through which souls enter the Black Moon.

That's my take on it (it would also explain bochan_bird's "well of souls" translation).

kaos wrote:So it would seem that Eva-01 is meant to be another possbile medium of souls. But the question is... how do souls get into her?

That may've been why SEELE had the Eva series stigmatize Eva-01, creating "artificial Doors" (as Reichu put it).

kaos wrote:Well, remember those eyes that form on her after the SoL wraps itself around Eva-01? I think those represent the the passage of souls because right after that, Shinji starts hallucinating about Asuka and Misato who are both dead. In other words, bodyless souls are going into Eva-01.

I'm pretty sure that whole scene occured in Shinji's mind. He was just talking himself, trying to convince himself that nobody should be alive.

kaos wrote:So maybe Seele's plan was to have the Harpy-Evas used their AATF to melt everyone, then have Eva-01 would act as a DoG into the Black Moon.

Well technically, the Evas would simply be using their ATFs so as to resonate with and expand Eva-01's AATF.

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 08:43 AM

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

kaos wrote:So it would seem that Eva-01 is meant to be another possbile medium of souls. But the question is... how do souls get into her?

Eva-01 was inside GNR at the time the doors opened, right?

kaos wrote:So maybe Seele's plan was to have the Harpy-Evas used their AATF to melt everyone, then have Eva-01 would act as a DoG into the Black Moon.

This is probably what they were trying to do. Fuyutsuki said this BEFORE Lilith/Rei came into the picture and AFTER Eva-01 was snagged by the MPEs. Also note that BB translated that line as "SEELE bastards... Do they plan to use EVA-01 as the well of souls!?", immediately proceeding that, Shinji has marks on his palms (DoG?).

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 08:47 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

Blader5489 wrote:That's my take on it (it would also explain bochan_bird's "well of souls" translation).

He didn't explain the "well of souls" thing, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt ATM. (I need to e-mail him badly.)

I'm pretty sure that whole scene occured in Shinji's mind. He was just talking himself, trying to convince himself that nobody should be alive.

So Shinji magically already knew about Kaji and Misato's week-long sex marathon (which Ritsuko referenced in #21) and was sufficiently informed to see a brief flashback to the #20 boinking session, as well? During this sequence, Misato also refers to her sexual side as a part of herself that Shinji didn't know.
Misato (voice):
I wasn't able to become Shinji's mother after all...

(Kaji's and Misato's college apartment)

Misato:
Mmmm, let's do it.

Kaji:
Again? Aren't you supposed to meet your friend at school today?

Misato:
Hmm? Oh yeah, Ritsuko. It's okay, we still have time...

Kaji:
We've been cooped up here for a week now...

Misato:
Yeah, but I think I'm getting the hang of it... so come on...

(The lovemaking begins and continues in the background)

Misato:
I probably just did this to prove that I existed.

Asuka:
How idiotic! It's just two lonely adults comforting each other.

Ritsuko (precisely):
We want to feel needed, even if it's only physical.

Misato:
I feel wanted, and that makes me happy.

Asuka:
It's just an easy way for you feel that you're worth something.

Shinji (disgusted = thinking):
This is Misato? She does... this?

Misato:
Yes, this is also me... The melting into one another's hearts...
The me that Shinji doesn't know.
Reality does involve pain, but you just have to accept it. The entire "P3II" sequence is EXTREMELY important exposition for the characters of Misato and Asuka, and their relationships with Shinji. Brushing it off as something Shinji made up is a rather effective way of dismissing so very, very much.

Well technically, the Evas would simply be using their ATFs so as to resonate with and expand Eva-01's AATF.

Where do they mention an AATF from EVA-01...?

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 09:01 AM

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

Reichu wrote:The entire "P3II" sequence is EXTREMELY important exposition for the characters of Misato and Asuka, and their relationships with Shinji. Brushing it off as something Shinji made up is a rather effective way of dismissing so very, very much.

The P3II always seemed to fit with the first few "The Case of XXX" from EoTV. But in EoTV, it says "The instrumentality of mankind begins" before Misato's case (and sex scene). It could be that all the cases were happening at the same time?

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 09:32 AM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

Ornette wrote:Eva-01 was inside GNR at the time the doors opened, right?

No, Eva-01 entering GNR was the last thing that occured before Shinji started his discussion with the gods. Image

Reichu wrote:He didn't explain the "well of souls" thing, so I'm taking it with a grain of salt ATM. (I need to e-mail him badly.)

I know he didn't explain it, I was just saying that all souls passing through Lilith/Eva-01/GNR (they all fulfill the same role, basically) would explain both the idea of a medium and souls entering into GNR's Doors of Guf.

Though that still doesn't explain the souls that enter the top of the Black Moon...

Reichu wrote:So Shinji magically already knew about Kaji and Misato's week-long sex marathon (which Ritsuko referenced in #21) and was sufficiently informed to see a brief flashback to the #20 boinking session, as well? During this sequence, Misato also refers to her sexual side as a part of herself that Shinji didn't know.

Good point, I had forgotten about that.

Reichu wrote:Where do they mention an AATF from EVA-01...?

All of the Evas, including Eva-01, project AATFs that take the shape of the SToL. And when you consider that Eva-01 was meant to substitute for Lilith, she would eventually have to cover the world in an AATF (with the Eva series helping to expand it by resonating their own ATFs).

That would also explain the Eva series surrounding Eva-01 (the symbol is another representation of Creation) right before GNR shows up.

Originally posted on: 07.31.2006, 09:59 AM

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Postby kaos [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

I'm going to throw out a few answers to my own questions here:

kaos wrote:Why is Seele so dead set on the "destruction of the ego of the pilot of Eva-01"? How will that help "complete" humanity?

If by "ego" they mean "sense of self", then they are probably just saying that by destroying his ego he will be more willing to choose complementation...

kaos wrote:Gendo says: "The only way I'll be able to see my Yui again is through the forbidden fusion of Adam and Lilith." My question is, why does he need to fuse them? Why can't Lilith do it on her own?

So Lilith will gain an S2? But then how does Lilith regenerate if she doesn't have her own S2?

Blader wrote:That's my take on it (it would also explain bochan_bird's "well of souls" translation).

Well, if the Tree of Life in 3I is essentially a door INTO the Black Moon, perhaps the inverted version would be ...


Here's another question for Reichu... Way back you mentioned the "black core". I was wondering if you ever ended up revealing your ideas on exactly what this is?

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 12:48 PM

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Postby Blader5489 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

Regarding the "Well of Souls", it seems it's just an alternate name for the Chamber of Guf (like "Hall of Souls"). I'm still trying to figure out what that means when reconciled with everything else, but it does lend credibility to the idea of the CoG being inside Lilith/Eva-01.

If not that, maybe it's just a pocket of space that can be accessed by entering the Black Moon or Lilith.

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 01:07 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

Blader5489 wrote:Regarding the "Well of Souls", it seems it's just an alternate name for the Chamber of Guf (like "Hall of Souls").

"Well of Souls" and "Hall of Souls" are just things bb inserted into his translation despite the fact that there is no equivalent text in the actual script. Regardless of whether or not his "self-insertions" work, they are "foreign material". So, if yorishiro can mean something like "well of souls", one should find a proper citation for it. (And similarly for anything about the Chamber of Guf.)

kaos wrote:If by "ego" they mean "sense of self"...

Correct. From an as-yet unfinished FGC page:
Jiga / %?D;%?E;
"Ego" or "self". A recurring psychoanalytic reference to Freud's "das Ich" ("the I", subsequently translated into Latin ego, "I") -- which could be, on the most simplified level, described as "sense of self".
Here's another question for Reichu... Way back you mentioned the "black core". I was wondering if you ever ended up revealing your ideas on exactly what this is?

:cries: You had to ask?

As a basic establishment: There are many paralleled phenomena between 2I and 3I. AATFs. Wings of Light. Doors of Guf. Life being "reset", disembodied souls, the environs changing in appearance. Recently unveiled, the Tree of Life. And so on.

Here's some paralleled visuals, which Shin-seiki pointed out a couple years back. (With some aural similarities, too.) Click for bigger.

Image

Image

GNK's giant hands roving towards EVA-01 almost seem like an "extended", uninterrupted version of "the last footage of the Katsuragi Team", in a way.

More in a sec...

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 01:58 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

Keeping that in mind...

In the OP and #12, we see Adam, full-on, as the Giant of Light.

Image

Image

Both times, she is depicted with black circles for eyes and a dark circle/oval in the core region.

Do we ever see "black eyes" again?

Image

...How about the "black core"?

After the harpies mutate and EVA-01's core is exposed, she leans backwards and her "glow goes out".

Image

GNK shows up. After he cups the Eva within his massive palms, we see this:

Image

The point of the Spear approaches her core as she releases a low moan. (You know what that means.) What else do you notice here...?

(Being continued...)

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 03:46 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

They immediately cut away to the bridge. Insert technobabble.

AOBA:
Solenoid graph inverting! Ego barrier weakening!

HYUGA:
A.T. Field shifting to Pattern Red!

And Fuyutsuki's little rant (experimental translation):
The Fruit of Life held by Angels, and the Fruit of Knowledge held by Man.
In acquiring both, Eva Unit-01 became an existence equal to God.
And now she is being returned* to the Tree of Life, the embryo of lives.
Will she become the Ark that saves humanity from the nothingness of Third Impact, or the Devil that destroys them?
The future is in the hands of Ikari's son.

* Apparently, "returned to origins".

Shortly after he begins talking, the camera shifts back to EVA-01, picking up where we left off, with the Spear of Longinus merging into her core. Closeup animation (click for the entire image):

Image

Apparently, there's something dark and round inside her core that shows through the outside as a two-stage gradation. (The gradation is noted in the storyboards.) This is rather weird, as EVA-01 has never exhibited such a nuclear feature before. Also strangely, if you look really closely, the Spear's shadow doesn't fall upon this dark circle as if it were spherical; but when the core closes, the dark circle actually seems to be physical, and flexible.

Two key features of the Giant of Light recur in EoE: The glowing, when the Eva Series "release" their S2 Engines, and the strange black eyes, seen on Lilith when she first awakens. Is what's happening to EVA-01's core a direct correlate to the state of Adam's? If the dark circle is supposed to be her core, and nothing more, then...

Image
...not only is it MUCH smaller than Adam's bastard daughters would lead us to expect...

Image
...it's, erm... yeah. (And, of the two GoLs, this one is much more anatomically plausible.)

Perhaps it's time to at least reconsider what these dark core-things are.

(Little more coming up...)

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 04:28 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:09 am

During the events leading to Second Impact, we hear one of the Katsuragi Team members say this:
Woman D "Begin thermal dampening treatment as soon as the Doors of Guf open."No idea what the first part is supposed to mean -- but they're anticipating the opening of Adam's Doors. Following Lilith's precedent, these would be expected to manifest as "stigmata" on Adam's palms.

The last thing we see in that cut is this:

Image

The explosion seems to be connected to this unusual 'dome' that forms over the South Pole:

Image

After this, Adam as the GoL is glimpsed. (See earlier.) Then, the moment after Dr. K collapses, KABOOM! BIG WINGS!

Image
(click for bigger)

...with an inverted ToL apparently flying away from the epicenter:

Image

(The first frame of C-0015 isn't in the ani-gif since, two frames after a cut change, the screen jolts to the right, and I felt too lazy to employ my usual get-arounds. Maybe I'll tweak it later. Image )

(More...)

Originally posted on: 08.01.2006, 06:47 PM


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