Behavioral logic of LCL

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:51 pm

Hi everybody! Here's one issue I think we should clear out of the way during the commentary of episode #01 because otherwise we might end up having a lot of "wait, is this blooper or not?" comments later on: how LCL actually works in entry plug use? (Since I'm a lazy, busy bastard, this text is mostly copypasted from old private messages.)

I find it quite odd how little discussion there has been about this subject. Think about it: we see entry plugs being filled with LCL, but when the pilots operate their Evas, most of the time it seems as if the plugs are not liquid-filled.

To quote Shin-seiki, it is possible that "the liquid character of LCL is something the animators freely ignore as far as it suits them". But I personally believe there has to be some kind of logical system behind its behavior (or at least mostly logical system). Although it's granted that this show has many bloopers, some scenes are just too important to be considered as such: Rei's tears in episode #23 is probably the most important one of these - how is it possible that she can cry normally inside a liquid-filled cockpit? I just cannot imagine that the staff of Gainax would have overlooked a detail like this with shameless "who cares?" -attitude.

Now, some speculation follows: I haven't yet done much research on this myself, but for what I can tell from the first couple of episodes, LCL appears to change to non-liquid form just before the A-10 nerve connection is established (the D&R program book says "after the pilot is on-board, this L.C.L is electrically charged to alter its molecular arrangement" - what the hell that actually means is another thing altogether though). The normal, yellow color of LCL disappears, after which it appears as if there's nothing more than normal air in the plug.

This scene from episode #03 where when Toji and Kensuke enter Shogouki's entry plug seems to support this argument rather explicitly: Before the visual screens are restored, we see only a some sort of emergency light at the upper left corner of the screen. The light is at first distorted by the liquid ripple effect, but right before we hear the "synch humming" this effect disappears. Also, Toji and Kensuke stop holding their breath as if they were breathing air normally again.

So, here's the theory: One of the purposes of LCL is to protect the pilot, so maybe it acts more like a some kind of force field in that respect. Maybe non-liquid form is the normal form of LCL in entry plug use; after all, the pilots need to perform certain moves while piloting (at the very least they need to turn their heads to be able to look left and right, up and down), and being in a liquid would just make these movements slower. But when the Eva is taking heavy pounding, LCL can instantly revert back to its liquid form to offer maximum protection for the pilot - one scene I remember straight off is Ramiel's beam weapon hitting Eva-01.

Shin-seiki also pointed out that during the harpy-fight in EoE, we see something that could be called as "shock bubbles" briefly appearing when Nigouki takes a heavy hit. At least to me these bubbles look rather strange, more like mere bubble outlines than actual air-filled bubbles in a liquid. It might mean that LCL momentarily regains some of its liquid properties to absorb the damage better.

Like I said, because I haven't had the time to go through all the relevant scenes, this theory is only based on a couple of findings and thus there might be huge holes in it. That's why I'm asking you to take the role of inquisition and poke this bastard of a theory with your sharpen sticks of scepticism. If it isn't fit to live, we'll bury it. Thank you and good night.

P.S. Some screencaptures couldn't hurt here.

Originally posted on: 02-Jun-2004, 18:20 GMT

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Postby RahOtaku [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

LCL is Yellow, Solid, Liquid, Human, or anything at all it wants to be.

It's the primordial soup. It can do whatever the soul wills it to.
Image


Originally posted on: 02-Jun-2004, 18:33 GMT

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Postby Quiddity [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:Hi everybody! Here's one issue I think we should clear out of the way during the commentary of episode #01 because otherwise we might end up having a lot of "wait, is this blooper or not?" comments later on: how LCL actually works in entry plug use? (Since I'm a lazy, busy bastard, this text is mostly copypasted from old private messages.)

I find it quite odd how little discussion there has been about this subject. Think about it: we see entry plugs being filled with LCL, but when the pilots operate their Evas, most of the time it seems as if the plugs are not liquid-filled.

To quote Shin-seiki, it is possible that "the liquid character of LCL is something the animators freely ignore as far as it suits them". But I personally believe there has to be some kind of logical system behind its behavior (or at least mostly logical system). Although it's granted that this show has many bloopers, some scenes are just too important to be considered as such: Rei's tears in episode #23 is probably the most important one of these - how is it possible that she can cry normally inside a liquid-filled cockpit? I just cannot imagine that the staff of Gainax would have overlooked a detail like this with shameless "who cares?" -attitude.

Now, some speculation follows: I haven't yet done much research on this myself, but for what I can tell from the first couple of episodes, LCL appears to change to non-liquid form just before the A-10 nerve connection is established (the D&R program book says "after the pilot is on-board, this L.C.L is electrically charged to alter its molecular arrangement" - what the hell that actually means is another thing altogether though). The normal, yellow color of LCL disappears, after which it appears as if there's nothing more than normal air in the plug.

This scene from episode #03 where when Toji and Kensuke enter Shogouki's entry plug seems to support this argument rather explicitly: Before the visual screens are restored, we see only a some sort of emergency light at the upper left corner of the screen. The light is at first distorted by the liquid ripple effect, but right before we hear the "synch humming" this effect disappears. Also, Toji and Kensuke stop holding their breath as if they were breathing air normally again.

So, here's the theory: One of the purposes of LCL is to protect the pilot, so maybe it acts more like a some kind of force field in that respect. Maybe non-liquid form is the normal form of LCL in entry plug use; after all, the pilots need to perform certain moves while piloting (at the very least they need to turn their heads to be able to look left and right, up and down), and being in a liquid would just make these movements slower. But when the Eva is taking heavy pounding, LCL can instantly revert back to its liquid form to offer maximum protection for the pilot - one scene I remember straight off is Ramiel's beam weapon hitting Eva-01.



Likewise, when one has been in the Eva for too long, it loses its non-liquid usefulness and reverts back to liquid even though the pilot doesn't necessarily need it as liquid to protect himself (like episode 16). Dunno if anyone can fill us in on anything from an official source, but I'd lean towards your theory about it given that there is so many scenes during the series that it being pure liquid 100% of the time doesn't make sense, like with Rei's tear.

Originally posted on: 02-Jun-2004, 21:56 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Well watter, the basic liquid, is composed of elements of air so maybe its not that hard to transist between them. Maybe lcl has a ver fast and direct boiling point at a low temp and can maker the transition quickly depending on what the eva systems command it to do.

Originally posted on: 02-Jun-2004, 22:03 GMT

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Postby RahOtaku [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Trying to classify LCL as either Solid or Liquid would be futile.

It probably can be anything it wants to be, whether its solid, liquid, plasma, or gas... Considering it is the primordial soup of life.


Image

Originally posted on: 02-Jun-2004, 23:55 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:
Shin-seiki also pointed out that during the harpy-fight in EoE, we see something that could be called as "shock bubbles" briefly appearing when Nigouki takes a heavy hit. At least to me these bubbles look rather strange, more like mere bubble outlines than actual air-filled bubbles in a liquid. It might mean that LCL momentarily regains some of its liquid properties to absorb the damage better...

P.S. Some screencaptures couldn't hurt here.

Here's the scene in #25' with Asuka and the "shock bubbles":
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/LCL/Bubbles.html

BTW, here's something relevant to the topic at hand:
(#22)
Maya : Unit-2 psychograph signal is very weak.

Ritsuko : How about the mind barrier from the LCL?

Maya : No effect. We cannot even expect the buffering effect.

Ritsuko : Give first priority to life support.
Don't allow feedback from Eva.

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 01:51 GMT

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Postby Springymajig [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

As much as I hate to potenitally fuel some kind of argument, but RahOtaku has a point.... that explanation pretty much completely ignores just what LCL is (mind you I'm ignoring the fact that it can be ANYTHING). I mean, I'm no expert at all, but if LCL is basically primordial soup/soul juice or something like that, couldn't it be thought of as something organic? I'm not sure on this one, but I was under the impression that the LCL in each of the Eva's belongs to the souls that reside within them, or is at least connected to them in someway. Shinji's mother would want to protect him, and hence the LCL acts in the way you explained because the Yui in LCL form is trying to stop Shinji from getting hurt, which would explain to me the whole sync ratio thing and WHY the pilots are chosen to pilot Eva's which contain the souls of those who are close to them.

Again, I don't know nearly as much as you guys, but I thought maybe I might at least touch on something important.

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 07:11 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Springymajig wrote:I'm not sure on this one, but I was under the impression that the LCL in each of the Eva's belongs to the souls that reside within them, or is at least connected to them in someway. Shinji's mother would want to protect him, and hence the LCL acts in the way you explained because the Yui in LCL form is trying to stop Shinji from getting hurt, which would explain to me the whole sync ratio thing and WHY the pilots are chosen to pilot Eva's which contain the souls of those who are close to them.



Well, LCL is stored in the Evas' cores, but whether or not it actually originates from them is another matter entirely... I've had discussions with Wigs in the past on the matter. I rather liked the idea that the Evas' cores could produce LCL on their own, but it's hard to overlook the fact that Lilith's blood is harvested for some purpose, no? (She's stored in an "LCL Plant", after all.)

As for those shock bubbles in #25' -- I was always under the impression that it was just saliva or something sticking to the "camera", though I could be wrong.

Anyway, very interesting idea about the 'molecular structure' being altered by the electric charge... For some reason, I never really stopped to think about that one. Image

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 09:31 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Reichu wrote:As for those shock bubbles in #25' -- I was always under the impression that it was just saliva or something sticking to the "camera", though I could be wrong.

Um, the shot is inside the entry plug; I'm not sure where you're coming from with that comment...

Anyway, very interesting idea about the 'molecular structure' being altered by the electric charge... For some reason, I never really stopped to think about that one. Image

I personally think that Dr Nick is really onto something here.

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 09:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Um, the shot is inside the entry plug; I'm not sure where you're coming from with that comment...



Ergo, it's spittle coming from Asuka. Well, that's what I always thought it was. Like I said, I could be wrong... The script certainly doesn't elaborate, either way.

I personally think that Dr Nick is really onto something here.



Aye. Where would we be without the Good Doctor? (I ph33r his upcoming half-a-year leave of absence! Image )

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 09:50 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Yeh Dr. Nick has a point. However I doubt that the Eva's produce their own LCL. Maybe Yui as she is made from Lillith matter (I think. I can't remember if thats a bad rumor or not)

Everytime (almost) the Eva is hit those bubbles appear. When the Eva reverts to minimal system power the LCL goes into liquid form (no electricity being supplied to keep it in whatever other form it is in usually.)

And wasn't there a scene where ritsuko said "It's similar to the primordial soup we have recreated in or laboratories."

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 12:06 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Washu-chan wrote:Yeh Dr. Nick has a point. However I doubt that the Eva's produce their own LCL. Maybe Yui as she is made from Lillith matter (I think. I can't remember if thats a bad rumor or not)



I put forward a theory a while ago that EVA-01 is an Adam-derived organism that was literally BORN from Lilith, and pretty much everybody who responded seemed to find it pretty convincing (in a disturbing way). (Another thread I'll have to dig up for you, I guess.) So she's made from Lilith's biomass (having been carried by Lilith and disturbingly connected to her following birth), but is otherwise like the other Evas or Adam -- her blood is normal instead of being composed of LCL. I doubt simply being born from her (but otherwise unrelated) would result in a perk as strange as being able to produce LCL in her core, but, hey, you never know...

Everytime (almost) the Eva is hit those bubbles appear.



Care to cite any specific examples?

And wasn't there a scene where ritsuko said "It's similar to the primordial soup we have recreated in or laboratories."



In the LTP script, the line goes:

Maya: Exactly. The LCL ingredients in the plug changed chemically
[and] are now similar to the sea water of the primitive earth.



Nothing about "being recreated in our laboratories" -- although I have read somewhere (Image) that real-life scientists have managed to create a substance akin to the theorized Primordial Soup that Terran life originated from.

But speaking of this line, here's something that's bothered me... Maya says that the LCL in the plug is only similar to primordial soup after changing chemically (i.e., having Shinji's body dissolved in it?). This indicates, to me, that there is a chemical difference between the 'raw LCL' that bleeds out of Lilith (and is subsequently used in the entry plugs) and the LCL that people/penguins/trees/whatever splat into. Does this mean that 'raw LCL' doesn't actually contain all of the ingredients necessary to build an organism? What does Maya really mean by 'chemically altered'...?

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 13:18 GMT

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Washu-chan wrote:Maybe lcl has a ver fast and direct boiling point at a low temp and can maker the transition quickly depending on what the eva systems command it to do.


Interesting idea, but I think that the episode in which Shinji gets grilled by Ramiel's energy blast might disprove that...if I recall, the heat from the thing caused the LCL to boil (at least it looked like it was boiling, anyways), so I doubt that the LCL was in gaseous form at that point. Unless, of course, it's just another blooper, heh.

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 14:14 GMT

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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

I always thought that when the LCL was electrified, it changed into a substance that is more like air. I don't even know if such a thing is possible, but this is anime after all...

I also assumed the purpose of LCL in the entry plug was to act are an effective medium to help transmit the pilots thoughts. That's why when someone else was in the entry plug it interfered with performance.

Like in episode 4

Touji: What? It's water!

Kensuke: Camera. Oh, my camera!

*Ritsuko and Maya check the information on the status display.

Maya: Trouble in the nervous system!

Ritsuko: It's due to the insertion of foreign bodies. Noises have been
detected in the nerve pulses.




But I like the idea of it being a cushion. It seems to make a lot of sense.

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 19:34 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Yeh it does.

Reichu: I think I said the english translation from ADV (damn them!).

Maybe the LCL needs soul floating in it to become "special." Since in EoE everyones souls are taken their bodies revert back to normal LCL. Hows thjat sound?

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 21:46 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Reichu wrote:Ergo, it's spittle coming from Asuka. Well, that's what I always thought it was. Like I said, I could be wrong... The script certainly doesn't elaborate, either way.

I think you need to watch that sequence again; if you watch it in real time, then step-frame thru it, it is pretty obvious that those are bubbles that precipitate very briefly out of the LCL from the impact when EVA-02 is slammed by the other EVA. I don't think there's any unusual about how they're drawn either, Dr Nick; they're drawn in a simple, undetailed fashion because they're only onscreen for less than half a second.

Here's some more relevant screen-caps...
Asuka bleeding from her eye (#25'):
Image

Rei crying (#23):
Image Image Image

and Shinji being parboiled (#05):
Image

Originally posted on: 03-Jun-2004, 22:49 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:I think you need to watch that sequence again; if you watch it in real time, then step-frame thru it, it is pretty obvious that those are bubbles that precipitate very briefly out of the LCL from the impact when EVA-02 is slammed by the other EVA.



Heh heh, I guess I'll take your word for it. In all truth, I have gone frame-by-frame through virtually all of the UBF and seen it in real time even more (owing to the fact that I made script pages for it before the Commentary Project began). I just never considered that they might be bubbles, that's all.

Asuka bleeding from her eye (#25'):
Image



On my monitor, anyway, that image is way too dark to see ANYthing... (Ahh, Auto Contrast in PhotoShop be blessed!)

and Shinji being parboiled (#05)



lol Heat-Ray Parboiled Shinji and Kentucky Fried Rei... Now we just need one for Asuka.

Originally posted on: 04-Jun-2004, 01:08 GMT

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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Reichu wrote:But speaking of this line, here's something that's bothered me... Maya says that the LCL in the plug is only similar to primordial soup after changing chemically (i.e., having Shinji's body dissolved in it?). This indicates, to me, that there is a chemical difference between the 'raw LCL' that bleeds out of Lilith (and is subsequently used in the entry plugs) and the LCL that people/penguins/trees/whatever splat into. Does this mean that 'raw LCL' doesn't actually contain all of the ingredients necessary to build an organism? What does Maya really mean by 'chemically altered'...?


I understand the problem here. And it must have changed chemically when Shinji was dissolved into it or when Yui ingested the S2? I also find the fact that it says "LCL ingredients" interesting...

But if LCL does not equal primordial soup, and that only this new "chemically changed" LCL is similar
to the primordial soup, then is what the LCL that people/penguins/trees/whatever splat into the same as this "chemically changed" one? (i.e. primordial soup)

And if it is, then why is it still reffered to as LCL throughout the series and EoE, if it isn't the 'raw LCL' coming out of Lilith and that which is in the cores?


Originally posted on: 04-Jun-2004, 01:23 GMT

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

Reichu wrote:Heat-Ray Parboiled Shinji and Kentucky Fried Rei... Now we just need one for Asuka.


Maybe "Shish Kebab Soryu" would qualify after she and Eva-02 get the business end of the replica lances? "Sushi-Style Soryu?" Though the irony of all this, of course, is that it all boils down to coffee in the end...Image

Originally posted on: 04-Jun-2004, 02:20 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:53 pm

LCL is Yellow, Solid, Liquid, Human, or anything at all it wants to be.

It's the primordial soup. It can do whatever the soul wills it to.


That's true in its own context, but I don't think the resident soul of Eva (or any soul for that matter) has anything to do with this transformation; most likely this is just one of Evas' technical systems. I believe it goes like this: Whenever an Eva takes a hit, the entry plug computer systems analyze the extent of the damage through special sensor systems and decide how much additional protection is needed and for how long (the Evas definately have damage sensor systems, as is shown on Maya's laptop screen in ep. #25'). So basically it's just a futuristic version of a normal airbag - although I personally would have preferred "impact foam" from the movie Demolition Man. It has more attitude.
Likewise, when one has been in the Eva for too long, it loses its non-liquid usefulness and reverts back to liquid even though the pilot doesn't necessarily need it as liquid to protect himself (like episode 16).


I agree with Washu-chan here, that's most likely because there's no electricity supplied to keep the LCL in "force-field" mode. But as Stuffman said, the low boiling point theory doesn't hold water because Ramiel's beam obviously made the LCL boil. I assume it reverted back to liquid mode immediately as the beam hit, but because of its massive heat energy the normally protective system backfired, making the LCL boil and turning Shinji into a human tea-bag.
As for those shock bubbles in #25' -- I was always under the impression that it was just saliva or something sticking to the "camera", though I could be wrong.


Hmmm, that is a possibility; "different fluids hitting the camera lens" is a special effects trick used sometimes in certain more violent movies (Starship Troopers and From Dusk Till Dawn come to my mind, both rather comedic films though). But I doubt that stuff in our example scene is sweat or saliva, because if I remember correctly those bubbles appear only for a second and then disappear, instead of sticking onto the lens. Also, they don't cause a water distortion effect to the image as clear liquid drops should.
What does Maya really mean by 'chemically altered'...?


My guess is what you said just above that line, a chemical difference between human-Tang and Lilith's LCL. After all, humans gain all kinds of impurities to their bodies from their food and tap water and air and medicines and from pretty much everywhere. Toxins, industrial chemicals, radioactive particles, you name it. Face it, you people are all filthy as hell.

And thanks for Shin-seiki for those screencaps. Could you also get me a couple of images from that aforementioned scene in ep. #03, more precisely of that emergency light and how the water effect distorting it disappears while the synchronization is restored. Thank you.

Originally posted on: 04-Jun-2004, 18:41 GMT


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