How I Came To Know Rei

[Reichu [ANF]]

NOTE FOR 2006: This is rather old (duh), and I need to fix the image links. But it's still a "landmark" thread, which includes Reichu worship (which is always good -- or is it? ), and it was about to die. So, what the hey! The relevant script is now here, BTW.

Archive Note: Images fixed to my best guess of what they are supposed to be, links also fixed. --Ornette
*****

About time I finally got around to doing this. Just to give fair warning, this will be a bit on the long side.

Those of you who have been around the forum long enough to see the full range of my "curious [Rei] antipathy" may have been wondering -- where on Earth has it all gone to?! It began early last month, when I read an essay (by our own Incisivis) that put Misato, Asuka, and Rei up to the same scrutiny of character that is all too often reserved for bouts of Shinji bashing. Amanda considered Rei-003's return to Lilith a mark of personal weakness (see her essay for the full context), which I disagreed with (go fig ). However, while I was typing an e-mail explaining my standpoint, I inadvertently made what felt like an epiphany -- suddenly, some of the things about Rei that drove me more nuts than anything else finally made sense.

Personally, I do not think that Rei is in any way the shining paragon of perfection some of her fanboys/girls make her out to be. Although her soul came from a divine being, Rei herself has become irreparably human -- in spite of whatever positive qualities she arguably has, she is as deeply flawed as any of us, her psyche just as fragile. And some actions that might seem to highlight her personal strength, in truth, have a darker side to them.

I have found Rei's scene from Episode #25 to be indispensable for understanding what is going on in EoE. It's been thoroughly demonstrated how intimately the two endings are interconnected; courtesy of Shin-seiki's lessons in Good NGE Observational Skills, it's relatively easy to see how "The Case of Ayanami Rei" and #25' have been linked together.





EoTV is an intricate psychological analysis of the main characters, whereas EoE shows us a rather more definitive chronology of what is actually happening. Regardless, here, "The Case of Ayanami Rei" shows what I believe to be a representation of Rei's thought processes leading up to Gendou's summons. In EoE, we see Rei only in a state of silent contemplation...



...whereas #25 puts into visual terms the inner conflict that is going on beneath Rei's cold exterior.

http://www.evageeks.org/episod..._C156_b_big.jpg
http://www.evageeks.org/episod..._C157_b_big.jpg
http://www.evageeks.org/episod..._C158_b_big.jpg

After thoroughly studying the scene from #25, I have come to think that it, more than anything else in NGE, reveals the true nature of Rei's character. Of course, like anything else in EoTV, it is extremely cryptic and difficult to decipher. To help me in this task, I processed the appropriate section of #25's Japanese script, evaluating whatever translations I had available and ultimately coming up with my own take on the dialogue. The fruit of my labors can be found here.

The Japanese script (provided on the Renewal discs) is quite neat, as it provides not only all of the dialogue, but also breaks down the episodes into individual, numbered cuts and provides a brief text description for each cut. It does some odd things, such as refer to Gendou as "Ikari", Naoko as "Akagi", and every angel the somewhat indistinct "shito" rather than their actual names, but there are also unexpected perks. Of relevance here is the fact that the individual Reis (Rei 1, Rei 2, and Rei 3) are identified in "The Case of Ayanami Rei".

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:10 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Given the importance I have personally found in this scene -- and the horrifying extent to which Shin-seiki has corrupted me -- I now present to you Reichu's Unofficial Walkthrough to "The Case of Ayanami Rei". (Translation of Japanese script by me, using the work of ADV and the Literal Translation Project as a stepping stone.)

C125 / Text: "The Third Character"

C126 / Text: "Ayanami Rei, Her Case"

C127 / Rei close-up. Bandage over one eye. / Rei 3 "Who am I?"

C128 / Close-up of Rei's eye. / Rei 2 "Ayanami Rei"

Rei 3 -- the current incarnation of Rei, currently pondering her existence in the bowels of NERV H.Q. -- pops the question that's been bugging her the most. But the answer comes from an unexpected place -- the previous version of herself.

C129 / Bandaged Rei / Rei 3 "Who are you?"

C130 / Telop: "Ayanami Rei"

Ah, the use of telop to convey something that could be just as easily said to us aloud. It's understandable why Lilith's "Okaeri nasai" was telop, but Anno uses it so much here I wonder about the precise effect he was after... "Ayanami Rei" is obviously Rei 2's response to Rei 3's question, as the next cut demonstrates.

C131 / Rei in a mirror / Rei 3 "You are also Ayanami Rei?"

C132 / Rei in plugsuit / Rei 2 "Indeed, I am that which is called Ayanami Rei"

C133 / Child Rei / Rei 1 "All of us are things called Ayanami Rei"

C134 / Rei 3 across from Child Rei / Rei 3 "How are all of you me?"

(The answer: "Quantum magic".) Rei 3 is being confronted by the first uncomfortable truth -- she is but one of three entities known as Ayanami Rei. Although the other two have since died, their presences live on to expose, throughout the rest of the scene, the truth of the third.

C135 / Rei 2 beyond Rei 3, who was just seen from the front speaking / Rei 2 "Because other people call all of us Ayanami Rei"

Notice how Rei 2 and Rei 3 are standing together opposite from Rei 1 -- a visual signal of the denial both of them will shortly provide.

C136 / Rei 1 across from Rei 3 / Rei 1 "Why do you have a false mind and a false body?"

And Rei 1, after morphing into her eerie "EVA-00" incarnation, throws the first bone into the fray. Note how the script refers to this version of Rei 1 as simply "Rei 1", whereas the somewhat less creepy version is "Child Rei".

Rei 1's role in this interchange is quite interesting. Whereas Rei 2 and Rei 3 are defined personalities attempting to validate the feelings of self and individuality that they experience, Rei 1 leaves no such impression. Rather, she comes across as a harbinger of the truth. She bore such tidings to Naoko in #21 (to her own demise), and now she does the same for her successive incarnations. Although child-like in appearance, she is clearly the one Rei in lieu with what's really going on, lacking a defined sense of self because she knows who she really is. But she doesn't come out with the truth up front -- rather, she seems to be prodding the others into a certain direction, countering every truth that they hold for themselves with the cold, harsh reality.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:12 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

C137 / Rei 3 from the front, close-up / Rei 3 "They are not false. I am I."

I think *some*one's in denial...

C138 / Close-up of glasses case. Towards the end of the cut, a click as it closes / Rei 1 (off-camera) "No, you are a person whose false soul was cultivated by a human called Ikari Gendou"

"Cultivated"... I like it better than the alternatives, though. I do not think that this line has to be interpreted as meaning that Gendou somehow CREATED the soul inside Rei 3. Rather, it refers to the fact that Gendou manipulated Lilith's soul into being something it was not. It should be fairly apparent that Rei 1 is being somewhat "nicer" to her other selves than she was to Naoko, hence the blatant ambiguity.

C139 / Side profile of Rei gazing at the glasses / Rei 1 (off-camera) "You are no more than a fabricated object pretending to be human"

And, indeed, that is what Rei truly is.

C140 / Child Rei close-up / Rei 1 "Look within yourself. Is there not a mind so shrouded in darkness you can neither see nor understand it?"

C141 / Close-up of Rei's mouth. Leering and laughing / Rei 1: "That is where the true you exists"

(Indeed, the original Lilith remains so utterly shrouded in darkness none of us otaku can either see or understand it, either...) Rei 1's words here definitely have profound implications. Incisivis put it very aptly in one of our correspondences:

While Lilith is "human" in a sense, her shape, and perhaps the "feel" of her mind, soul, and presence would come across as alien on first analysis (just as the humans didn't see the connection between humans and Angels/Shito until later in the series).

C142 / Rei close-up / Rei 2 "I am I. I have become what I am now through my connections to other people"

C143 / Image of silhouette Rei sinking into the water / Rei 3 (off-camera/right): "The shape of my current self is being formed through my contact with other people"
Rei 2 (off-camera/left) "My interaction with people and the flow of time change the shape of my mind"

C144 / Text: "Those are bonds?"

C145 / Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 2 "Yes, those are the things that have formed me -- the one called Ayanami Rei -- until now, and they will continue to form me after this"

C146 / Text: "Those are bonds"

We learned in #06 that Rei 2 considered her bonds to others to be all that she had, and, here, it would seem that Rei 3 is not so different. They both elevate their relationships with other people to the highest level and allow their sense of individuality to be shaped by such interactions completely.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:14 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

C147 / Child Rei close-up / Rei 1 "Even so, there is another who is the true you"

C148 / Rei inside the tank turning around in unison

C149 / Child Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 1 "It's just that you don't know her"

C150 / Rei turning around in unison

C151 / Close-up of Child Rei's eye / Rei 1 "Because you don't want to look at it, you're just avoiding something inside you that you don't understand"

The ADV translation of C151's line was certainly much more eloquent...

C152 / Text: "Because you're afraid"

C153 / Pictures / Rei 1 (off-camera) "Because she might not have a human form"

How nice of Rei 1 to drop the bomb on Rei 2 and 3 after both of them tried so valiantly to validate their existences. The "might not" above is obviously more of NGE's fine Ambiguity For Effect at work. Granted, Lilith is considerably more human in form than the cool paintings that flash by, but it is true that she is not human in the Lilim sense.

C154 / Reis smiling and laughing underwater / Rei 1 (off-camera) "Because you might cease to be who you are now"

C155 / Text: "You are afraid"

Ah, fear. This is more integral to Rei's personality that you might think.

C156 / Silhouettes of Reis slowly falling apart. Child Rei standing in front of them / Rei 1 "Afraid that your current self will cease to be"
Rei 1 "Afraid that you will disappear from within the minds of others"

And these words, in my mind, explain what had been to me one of the more puzzling occurrences in EoE ... but more on that after the Walkthrough.

C157 / Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 3 "Afraid? I don't understand"

I'm not quite sure what it is that Rei 3 doesn't understand. Is it just that Rei 1's message isn't sinking in, somehow? That would seem to be the case, given Rei 1's next line.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:17 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

C158 / Smiling Rei, side profile, close-up / Rei 1 "The world of your current self will be no more"

Odd how the animation used for Rei 1 here comes from what is commonly thought to be Armisael taking on Rei 2's image. Does this support the notion that Rei 2 was actually just talking to Rei 1 and not Armisael? Or should we not look that deeply into the recycling of old footage?

C159 / Text: "Aren't you afraid?"

C160 / Close-up of laughing face / Rei 1 "The current self will fade away"

C161 / Text: "Aren't you afraid?"

C162 / Commanding view of Rei sitting in folding chair / Rei 3 "No, I'm overjoyed"
Rei 3 (right) "I am one who desires death"
Rei 3 (left) "All I need is despair"
Rei 3 "I want to return to nothing"

A little nihilistic, isn't she? The personalities of Rei 2 and Rei 3 clash yet again. Rei 2 could not wait to die, and, apparently, neither can Rei 3. Although this desire of hers to "return to nothing" (FYI, one of the key sentiments of "Amaki shi yo, kitare" -- a.k.a., "Komm süsser Tod") is strangely at odds with the way that she clings stalwart to her individuality in the face of Rei 1's revelations.

C163 / Black screen / Rei 2 "But you can't"

/ C164 / Moon from ending / Rei 2 "You can't return to nothing"

And speaking of which... What, precisely, does she mean by "return to nothing"...?

C165 / Glasses on top of chest / Rei 2 "That person won't let you return"

C166 / Rei and glasses / Rei 3 "Won't let me return and end it yet"

Is she referring to Rei 1's "prophecy"? In returning to Lilith, her true self, the entity called Rei would disappear so that Lilith might exist again, and Rei would return to the nothing she was before Gendou created her?

C167 / Smiling Rei in a conversation / Rei 2 (off-camera) "I existed because that person needed me"

In other words, because "that person" (Gendou) wanted to puppet Lilith's soul so that Instrumentality would go his way?

C168 / Rei sitting in folding chair / Rei 3 "But in the end"
Rei 3 "I won't be needed"
Rei 3 "I will be cast aside by that person"

C169 / Rei front close-up. Brings her head down after saying "Now..." / Rei 3 "Although I've been longing for that day...
Now I fear it"

Why has Rei been longing for her abandonment? And, conversely, why does she now fear it...? This is not terribly elaborated upon.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:19 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

C170 / In the darkness, Rei standing in front of Ikari / Sound Effect <<RATTLE>>
Ikari "Now, let's go. You have existed for today...

On a random note, Gendou says "Saa, ikou" both here and in the corresponding scene in #25'.

C171 / Ikari, side profile close-up / "This day, Rei."

C172 / Rei, side profile close-up / Rei "Yes"

And so, despite all she has just been through, Rei is still willing to continue being Gendou's puppet. It seems to take a little while for her inhibition to kick in -- the first sign comes after Gendou's gone so far as to stick his hand into her...


("Ikari-kun.")

...when her awareness reminds her of the one for whom her previous self had chosen death. And so, without a single sign of emotion, she turns the tables and abandons Gendou before he has a chance to do it to her.



And, in spite of Rei 1's taunts, Rei 3 does, ultimately, confront the truth about who she is...



...and return to the body in which her soul belongs. [BTW, I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but the place on Lilith's chest where Rei is absorbed corresponds nicely to the solar plexus on Adam or an Eva -- the location of the core, where they keep their souls.]



Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:21 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Yet if Rei 3 has accepted that she is truly Lilith, why does this happen?





This puzzled me -- why return to your true self, only to mold your true self into the form of the fabricated object you had been placed within?? Yet, as I said a bit earlier on, Rei 1 provided us with the answer.

"Because you're afraid. Afraid that your current self will cease to be. Afraid that you will disappear from within the minds of others."

Rei 3 was afraid of confronting the "dark mind" that represents her true self. And even after she finally did face this truth and was welcomed "home", she decided that Lilith was not what she wanted to be. The fact that Rei 3's form is not her true one does not seem to ultimately matter to her. She was afraid of disappearing completely, and, to avoid this personal dilemma, Lilith became Rei, rather than Rei returning to Lilith that which was taken from her (her soul) and then fading into nonexistence. And even with the body of a divinity, Rei 3 continues to let her bonds with others (namely, Shinji) form what she is -- she lets them decide her actions, which, ultimately, results in her physical demise.



And then, all that remains of the entity known as Lilith is the spiritual presence of Rei 3.



We will never know what Lilith was originally like -- Rei 3 will see to that. Something about this disappoints me terribly. Lilith. A mysterious entity, billions of years old, about whom we know nothing. The mother of us all, yet we possessed the insolence to defile her body and soul. That existence and everything she originally was is lost after Lilith was forced to walk briefly among mortals, and Lilith went from being something beyond human to an entity as weak and frail as any of us. And rather than determining her own fate, her own future, when she finally obtains the power to do so, she lets someone else decide for her. Lilith is lost, leaving behind only the ghost of Rei 3.

I'm still not entirely sure how I should feel about this. (Granted, NGE is but fiction, though I am the type who prefers fiction that stirs both my mind and emotions -- both of which NGE does quite well.) But, perhaps, Amanda put it best:

"...I'm rather wary of the idea that if a being's new identity wants to exist over the old identity, there's something wrong with that. It's not "fair" to Lilith, but not to Rei, either. It's a moral conundrum."

And one that is ultimately irresolvable (as the best conundrums are). Not that it is terribly important in the grand scheme of things -- but at least it is one more item for us NGE nerds to think about.

A winner is you! You made it to the end of my post!! (Well, due to the nature of this forum, it's spread out over multiple posts, but you get the idea.) And thank jebus it's over... I eagerly await whatever chaos might erupt as a result of my long-winded musings! :maniacal laughter:

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:22 GMT

[GandalfsWhisper [ANF]]

Dear God, that's a long "post." I must remember to read it when I'm awake.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 05:31 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

You finally made this thread! Yay! (And on my birthday no less, Just barley February 14).

How nice of Rei 1 to drop the bomb on Rei 2 and 3 after both of them tried so valiantly to validate their existences.

A big part of Eva is the characters trying to justify their existence. Shinji and Asuka both feel it's to pilot Eva, and they tie the meaning and reason for their existence too it.

And even after she finally did face this truth and was welcomed "home", she decided that Lilith was not what she wanted to be.

I don't think you are seeing this in the right light. Its not that Lilith is not what she wants to be, it's that she can't throw away what she has become. It's the same with everyone, she can't forget what has happened to her as Rei any more than you or I can go back to the blissful innocence that was childhood. Her taking the form of Rei (Or rather of Yui) is symbolic of this

And rather than determining her own fate, her own future, when she finally obtains the power to do so, she lets someone else decide for her.

I think it was more of a moral thing. Shinji was going to decide what happened to humanity. It had to be a human that made that choice. Rei as Lilith could not decide humanities path for us, she could only assist with the choice Shinji made. And as we witnessed death is a different matter for her than us.

We will never know what Lilith was originally like -- Rei 3 will see to that. Something about this disappoints me terribly. Lilith. A mysterious entity, billions of years old, about whom we know nothing. The mother of us all, yet we possessed the insolence to defile her body and soul.

You said yourself we don't know what she was like so how do we know she is Defiling anything (As far as her soul is concerned)? And like I said the events of her life as Rei are apart of her, she can't throw them away any more than you or I can forget the events of our lives, and the people we have become because of them.

Lilith went from being something beyond human to an entity as weak and frail as any of us

Once again we don't know what Lilith was like. She could be more human than we think. Why did she create humanity (If it was a choice)? If there is a God why did he create us? Perhaps she was lonely?

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 06:11 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

You said yourself we don't know what she was like so how do we know she is Defiling anything (As far as her soul is concerned)?

I actually said that the Lilim were the ones doing the defiling.

As far as what Lilith was originally like -- Rei 1 seemed to be insinuating that Lilith's original self was much, much different from the very human Rei. "A mind so shrouded in darkness you can neither see nor understand it."

I'm going to wait and see what other replies crop up before addressing your other points. Hope you don't mind.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 06:26 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

I actually said that the Lilim were the ones doing the defiling.

Oops! Forgive my inability to read.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 06:29 GMT

[yjs [ANF]]

WHAA! Explosion of ideas and information making my brain explode! Can't think of intelligent reply...

But an interesting take on Rei. I've always though Rei renunited with Lilith to help Shinji, but now I understand better why she did it.

Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 22:05 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

How interesting that you take chibi-Rei's side of things when she doesn't provide any evidence for her accusations...

Rei is arguing with herself. Both Reis say they are right and the other is wrong. Neither can prove it. Why believe one over the other?

Also:

Odd how the animation used for Rei 1 here comes from what is commonly thought to be Armisael taking on Rei 2's image. Does this support the notion that Rei 2 was actually just talking to Rei 1 and not Armisael [in episode 23]?

Did you ever consider that maybe she's talking to Armisael and not "Rei 1" in Episode 25?

despite all she has just been through, Rei is still willing to continue being Gendou's puppet

I disagree. I believe she planned to betray him from the moment she woke up that morning - or did you forget the broken glasses?

Rei 3 does, ultimately, confront the truth about who she is... and return to the body in which her soul belongs

That is VERY open to debate...

she lets them decide her actions

And THAT I must fiercely disagree with. From episode 18 onward (hesitating to fire on Unit 03), and possibly a while beforehand, not one of her actions is decided by another person. She makes her own decisions. As for starting Third Impact, I don't think she could just walk away from Gendo and try to live a normal life - he'd send Nerv intelligence to track her down and bring her back by any means necessary, so Lillith was just about the only place she had left to go. Letting Shinji decide the fate of humanity (if that's what really happened) was not a big sacrifice on her part, since after all is said and done, everyone gets to decide for themselves whether to live in the real world or not, at least according to common interpretation.

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 03:18 GMT

[Crazy Penguin [ANF]]

Did you ever consider that maybe she's talking to Armisael and not "Rei 1" in Episode 25?

That makes...absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 03:23 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

How interesting that you take chibi-Rei's side of things when she doesn't provide any evidence for her accusations...

Rei is arguing with herself. Both Reis say they are right and the other is wrong. Neither can prove it. Why believe one over the other?

Because Rei 1's accusations embody a truth that Rei 2 and 3 don't want to hear. And, evidently, neither do you.

Did you ever consider that maybe she's talking to Armisael and not "Rei 1" in Episode 25?

Nope. The script ascribes the lines to Rei 1. I said in the beginning that I translated the Japanese script and used that for my "walkthrough" -- not sure how you missed that.

I disagree. I believe she planned to betray him from the moment she woke up that morning - or did you forget the broken glasses?

Yeah, I did. Odd how long Rei was playing along with things though, wasn't it? Even though her breaking of the glasses might seem like a decisive action, #25 seems to indicate how indecisive she really was.

That is VERY open to debate...

Most of the other folks here probably don't feel the same way.

As for starting Third Impact, I don't think she could just walk away from Gendo and try to live a normal life - he'd send Nerv intelligence to track her down and bring her back by any means necessary, so Lillith was just about the only place she had left to go.

Lilith was where she belonged the whole time, sonny.

Rei's decision to intervene is clearly Shinji-related. Before she betrays Gendou she thinks of him, and afterwards she says "Ikari-kun is calling me". (Which is odd, since he doesn't seem very happy to see her later...) Had she done nothing, Third Impact would have proceeded SEELE's way, with EVA-01, the ryousanki, and the copy Lances.

So what was in it for Rei? I dunno -- maybe this.

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 03:41 GMT

[Pepperidge [ANF]]

What about Adam?

Adam, and presumably his soul, were floating around inside Rei/Lilith somewhere. Do you think that they had truly united to form one being, or that Rei had dominated over both?

And, for that matter, how does Kaworu factor in? Was that actually his soul communicating with Shinji, or just a facade being played out by Rei?

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 03:44 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

Because Rei 1's accusations embody a truth that Rei 2 and 3 don't want to hear. And, evidently, neither do you.

I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

Wow. Your reasoning is impressively artight.

Nope. The script ascribes the lines to Rei 1. I said in the beginning that I translated the Japanese script and used that for my "walkthrough" -- not sure how you missed that.

Oh yeah. Silly me.

Lilith was where she belonged the whole time, sonny.

Lillith "belonged" nailed to that cross? Weren't you just bitching and moaning about all the horrible things that humans had done to her?

Rei's decision to intervene is clearly Shinji-related. Before she betrays Gendou she thinks of him, and afterwards she says "Ikari-kun is calling me". (Which is odd, since he doesn't seem very happy to see her later...)

He probably wasn't expecting to see a white, naked, 5,000-foot-tall version of her. Although he was suspiciously happy with Kaworu's similar appearance...

Had she done nothing, Third Impact would have proceeded SEELE's way, with EVA-01, the ryousanki, and the copy Lances.

Amazing how you back that up with... absolutely nothing.

*wonders what the hell a "ryousanki" is*

So what was in it for Rei? I dunno -- maybe this.

Hell yeah! And for two minutes, she had it.

how does Kaworu factor in? Was that actually his soul communicating with Shinji, or just a facade being played out by Rei?

They seem to be separate entities - Kaworu really did find his way in there somehow. He says he has Adam's Soul in the Director's Cut of episode 24; if this is true, his soul may have returned to Adam when his head popped off.

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 03:57 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

What about Adam?

Hmm, yes... What ABOUT Adam? Putting that Rei stuff together took so much out of me, I'm allowed a few oversights.

Adam, and presumably his soul, were floating around inside Rei/Lilith somewhere. Do you think that they had truly united to form one being, or that Rei had dominated over both?

Dominated over "both"? Aside from Kaworu/Adam, who else was there to dominate? But I think it was pretty evident that Rei/Lilith was the dominant personality of GNR -- the presence of Kaworu/Adam is only evidenced when she briefly splits into a Giant Rei/Kaworu conglomerate to appease Shinji. All Adam is really doing is giving Lilith access to the Super-Solenoid she previously lacked. Instrumentality involves the offspring of Lilith, not Adam -- he's just a passive observer along for the ride.

And, for that matter, how does Kaworu factor in? Was that actually his soul communicating with Shinji, or just a facade being played out by Rei?

That's a tough one... I'm not even exactly sure why it was so important to pacify Shinji -- is it just because Rei cares for him (even though he's terrified of her) and didn't want to see him suffering? That aside, I think it is possible that Rei was genuinely giving Kaworu temporary reign over the GNR body. She wanted to show Shinji something that would bring him comfort and she had Kaworu right there. "Aw, Ikari-kun's going nuts -- would you mind doing your thing, Kaworu, er, Adam?" "It would be my pleasure!"

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 04:04 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

Wow. Your reasoning is impressively artight.

I think you mean "airtight".

My reasoning feels rather sound to me. The things that Rei 1 says all have a basis in Rei's reality. You have a completely different (and IMO fundamentally WRONG) idea about what Rei is, hence you fail to see that Rei 1 is a harbinger of the truth. Is this surprising? Not at all.

Lillith "belonged" nailed to that cross? Weren't you just bitching and moaning about all the horrible things that humans had done to her?

The "she" referred to Rei, not Lilith.

He probably wasn't expecting to see a white, naked, 5,000-foot-tall version of her. Although he was suspiciously happy with Kaworu's similar appearance...

5,000 feet, eh? Way back when, I guesstimated GNR's initial height to be about 4.85km (compared to 145.5km once Instrumentality begins). I'm too lazy to figure out how many feet that is, though.

Amazing how you back that up with... absolutely nothing.

The different 3I scenarios have been given so much coverage on this forum, I didn't feel like repeating what had been summarized a zillion times before. So sorry.

*wonders what the hell a "ryousanki" is*

HAHAHAHAHAH! n00b!!!

Oh, wait, I already took care of that in another thread.

They seem to be separate entities - Kaworu really did find his way in there somehow. He says he has Adam's Soul in the Director's Cut of episode 24; if this is true, his soul may have returned to Adam when his head popped off.

He couldn't have, because in NGE your soul lingers in your body as long as your body remains (even in part). Kaworu's soul would be contained by his head (an odd thought, but whatever) and Gendou apparently transferred it back into Adam using those mysterious soul-transferring technologies that are never elaborated upon.

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 04:17 GMT

[GandalfsWhisper [ANF]]

I ask "Why believe person X over person Y" and you say "because X is right."

because person X is right.

Originally posted on: 15-Feb-2004, 04:22 GMT