Reichu's Revelations: Rei, Kaworu, and Everything in Between

[kaos [ANF]]

Okay I've been going through these threads and I have a few questions and one piece of irresponsible, relatively baseless speculation:

Questions:Okay, so Rei 1 = Yui Juice + Lilith's soul, and Rei 2+ = Lilith + some-kind-of-seed + Lilith's soul. What I don't get is, why did they use Lilith's soul to resurrect Yui?If Adam is a female, then why did Kaoru refer to Adam as "him" in his "conversation" with Seele?Why does the lance put Adam into stasis when Lilith spears her, but it leads to the second impact when humans do it?If Adam doesn't have a soul when she is the giant of lite, why can she walk around?I missed the thing about the pylons. Why does Adam have them when she is the giant of light?If Adam has a soul while she is in Gendou's hand, why isn't she awake?If the lance is re-generating Lilith, then why do her legs only grow after it is pulled out?
And now for the Irresponsible Speculation:

Adam's lance wasn't destroyed by Lilith. It has been in the show all along. Both spears have. It's just that they're wrapped together at one end.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 16:34 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

And now for the Irresponsible Speculation:

Adam's lance wasn't destroyed by Lilith. It has been in the show all along. Both spears have. It's just that they're wrapped together at one end.

Hmm. What makes you think this (I'm honestly curious about your theory)?

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 16:52 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Adam's lance wasn't destroyed by Lilith. It has been in the show all along. Both spears have. It's just that they're wrapped together at one end.

Hey maybe when the Lance changed at the end of EoE Yui was somehow adding to the lance by creating/adding her own? That might explain why it had two double pronged ends.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 17:24 GMT

[kaos [ANF]]

Hmm. What makes you think this (I'm honestly curious about your theory)?

There's a few things. First off, it seems to me that the spear at the very least has the potential to unwind itself. After all, it must have unwound itself after it destroyed Arael (since it has two points when Rei throws it, but three total points again when it is orbiting the moon). If it can unwind one end, why not the other. Well, it can unwind both ends because (if I remember correctly) it has 4 total points when Yui leaves with it in EoE. And if you look at it, there is no part of the spear where it is totally fused. So if nothing else, that shows that it has the potential to seperate into two seperate spears. Two spears, two SoL's. Hmmm...

Then Reichu said that Lilith destroyed Adam's spear. But what's the point in doing that? Why didn't Lilith just keep her own spear to to use as a power source, and use Adam's own spear to put Adam into hibernation? (I'm sure there are possible explanations for this BTW. I'm just showing my train of thought.)

Then Reichu also mentioned that when Lilith crash landed that her spear was dislodged and flew out into the ocean. Reichu theorized that Lilith woke up, retrieved the spear and used it on Adam. And that may be true, but then someone mentioned that maybe the spear just flew over to Adam of its own volition.

So then I figured that hey, maybe here's how it went: Lilith crash lands. Spear dislodges. It senses (somehow) that another spear is nearby. It flies over to where its buddy is and sticks itself into Adam in order to carry on a conversation. Maybe they hug at that point. I don't know since this image doesn't show any conclusive evidence that they are joined at the other end. Maybe their joining is NERV's doing. Who knows? Meanwhile, Lilith wakes: "Mm-mm, what a great nap. Wait a minute, didn't I have a spear stuck in me? Ah well. Oh, look. Menstruation..."

There's more even more relatively baseless ideas behind this, but that's all I have the guts to put out there right now. I just want to see how everyone reacts to this.

EDIT: Added quote. Added part abou Lilith at the end.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 17:39 GMT

[AsukaxSohryux [ANF]]

Hey maybe when the Lance changed at the end of EoE Yui was somehow adding to the lance by creating/adding her own? That might explain why it had two double pronged ends.

I only recall the LoL having 1 side double pronged(looks like a BBQ poker).

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 17:51 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Watch the end of the movie after she ejects the lance, its changed.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 17:55 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Okay, so Rei 1 = Yui Juice + Lilith's soul, and Rei 2+ = Lilith + some-kind-of-seed + Lilith's soul.

We were using "seed" figuratively, since Lilith is weird and we don't really know HOW the hell Gendo and his buddies did it. You know... "seeding" her Play-Dough body with Rei 1 DNA, and letting more Rei take sprout, etc.

Lilith's soul was totally uninvolved, BTW. The thing has been missing from her body from 2004 to 2015.

What I don't get is, why did they use Lilith's soul to resurrect Yui?

They didn't. The objective was to get Yui out of EVA-01's core and back into a reconstruction of her body. They ended up sucking Lilith's soul out of her body instead (which was possible because she was connected to Sho at the time) and a brand-spankin' new entity was created based on Yui juice.

[*]If Adam is a female, then why did Kaoru refer to Adam as "him" in his "conversation" with Seele?

Kaworu and the others didn't. No pronoun is used. The translator(s) just assumed that was the right pronoun because of the name. But, of course, Kaworu does refer to Adam as "our mother" later on, and that's the final word on the issue.

Why does the lance put Adam into stasis when Lilith spears her, but it leads to the second impact when humans do it?

Actually, that they're using the Spear on Adam during 2I is just an assumption. The Classified Information in NGE2 actually says that the Katsuragi Team attempted to use the Spear to reseal her, but they failed. They don't say how far they actually got in their attempt, or what they were doing with it before they failed... (Not that NGE2 is something that we are supposed to blindly trust -- it's just useful in that it spells out in plain words things you can extrapolate anyway.) But that's the most I'm going to say about that right now. </impishness>

And it's fairly well-implied that the Contact Experiment itself is what gets things going. Well, think about it. Contact between a Lilim and Adam. I dunno, you hear all of that crap about Contact between an Apostle and "Adam" (read: Lilith) being a big deal later on. It's messier than that, of course, but it's something to get the neurons jump-started.

If Adam doesn't have a soul when she is the giant of lite, why can she walk around?

I was wrong about that. The "black core" is something else. (It's a secret right now. ) In NGE2 -- we'll get proper translations to you guys soon enough, promise! -- Adam's fate after 2I is spelled out: She basically falls apart into "chunks of meat" (remind you of anybody?) due to her S^2 Engine going into "artificial overdrive". I'm guessing the core's integrity failed somewhere, becase the Classified Info also says that her "soul flew off somewhere". But Seele, being the clever bastards that they are, were able to retrieve it anyway and put it into one of the other things they picked up while they were down there, the unborn Tabris. (I guess it helped that all of the souls that "flew off" precipitated back down into the ocean.)

I missed the thing about the pylons. Why does Adam have them when she is the giant of light?

They do something that suppresses the intrinsic "god-powers". (As to what... Your guess is as good as mine...) The incorporation of the armaments (prog knife in one, spike shooter in the other) keeps people from asking, "Gee, what are those things REALLY for?" In #19, Yui needs to pop them off before she can utilize Zeruel's biomass to construct her own S^2, and, in #26', you can also see that her two initial wings split into four IMMEDIATELY after she pops them off.

Since the Katsuragi Team tells us, "The wings are spreading! It's going to surface!", I suppose we can extrapolate that Adam already has two wings spread during "Her Father's Cross" (#12) -- they're just off-screen. Pylon poppage similarly occurs off-screen, then, BOOM!, shockwave, and really BIG wings!

Since EVA-00 doesn't start off with pylons, maybe they're telling us something about how innately crappy she is? Poor Zero...

If Adam has a soul while she is in Gendou's hand, why isn't she awake?

The soul isn't salvaged back in until way late in the game -- behind the scenes, after Kaworu's death. We only get to see the embryo in Gendo's hand once, before then, so who knows how creepy things might have gotten between "pop!" and :fondle:...

If the lance is re-generating Lilith, then why do her legs only grow after it is pulled out?

So that you can have a cool regeneration scene, of course. </non>

Oh, wait, you say "if the lance is re-generating Lilith"? For my part, I was advocating that she was being charged like a battery, in a sense. And, for whatever reason, her body only puts the stored energy to use after the charger is removed. As always, accept what you're shown, and figure out why it's happening from there.

And now for the Irresponsible Speculation:

Adam's lance wasn't destroyed by Lilith. It has been in the show all along. Both spears have. It's just that they're wrapped together at one end.

I'm not quite sure what you're basing that on... Each Seed set out with her own Spear. NGE2 flat-out says that the Spear of Longinus came with Lilith (not that we need it to determine that the LnY is hers), but was (as we know from #23'/FULL OP) discovered in Adam. No direct reference is EVER made to the Spear that Adam came with. However, the disguised copy LnYs that the harpies are initially equipped with are called Omoi Yari, Heavy Spears, in the EoE script. They gratuitously show off the well-developed morphic capabilities of the Spear of Longinus and its derivatives.

Recall the comments in #21' about the Spear of Longinus needing to be "prepared" for the day of the Contact Experiment, which I drew attention to earlier. So far, I haven't found any reason to revoke the theory I forwarded then: that the otherwise somewhat pointless Heavy Spears in #25' are giving us a big hint about what was going on down in Antarctica, and what Adam's lost Spear looked like...

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 17:57 GMT

[AsukaxSohryux [ANF]]

Hehe, anyways, WHO wouldnt know ADAM is a male. Kind of fishy have a female named ADAM. Thats scary. Kaworu calling ADAM mother doesnt implement its female. A male can be a mother figure, without being female.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 18:13 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Still not quite sure what Yui is doing with the Spear at the end of EoE, so I'm withholding comment there.

First off, it seems to me that the spear at the very least has the potential to unwind itself. After all, it must have unwound itself after it destroyed Arael (since it has two points when Rei throws it, but three total points again when it is orbiting the moon).

The bident form is its default one, apparently. Since nobody was around after Arael's death to tell it otherwise, it just reverted to its regular state.

Then Reichu said that Lilith destroyed Adam's spear. But what's the point in doing that?

Well, it clearly isn't around anymore when Adam is exhumated, so that Lilith destroyed it seems like a pretty logical hypothesis to me... I'm not going to reject it on the basis of not knowing why, since the full scope of the Spears' functions is as yet undetermined.

Why didn't Lilith just keep her own spear to to use as a power source, and use Adam's own spear to put Adam into hibernation?

That seems a bit counterintuitive... If the FAR designed the Spears so that they could put their own owners into suspended animation, the Spear of Longinus certainly wouldn't be very useful to Lilith. The same "rule of compatibility" should apply to Adam, I'd think. The giant blade on the thing wouldn't be very friendly either way, but it wouldn't knock her out.

Besides, it's probably against the Prime Directive to use anything but your own weapon in an Official SoL Bitch Fight. "Use your own weapon. No playing dirty. No killing. You're professionals, remember."

Then Reichu also mentioned that when Lilith crash landed that her spear was dislodged and flew out into the ocean. Reichu theorized that Lilith woke up, retrieved the spear and used it on Adam. And that may be true, but then someone mentioned that maybe the spear just flew over to Adam of its own volition.

Not into the ocean. (Did the oceans even exist at that point?) Just flew outside somewhere, e.g., Lilith had to lug herself out of the Black Moon to play fetch, and, in doing so, noticed that she wasn't alone.

The "Spear skewering Adam itself" idea was my first take on the NGE2 info, but I rejected it after I realized that the implications of the tidbit had to be no more than the above. And, actually, I've since realized that the show itself more or less tells us -- in that clever NGE sort of way -- that the battle between Adam and Lilith really did happen. (I'll be sharing that later, unless someone figures it out before then.)

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 18:17 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

Not into the ocean. (Did the oceans even exist at that point?) Just flew outside somewhere, e.g., Lilith had to lug herself out of the Black Moon to play fetch.

The First Impact, in order to create the Moon, would have had to melt the Earth's crust. I think we can safely say that if there were oceans at the time of the First UBF, then they were of magma, with floating continents adrift on them.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 18:27 GMT

[AsukaxSohryux [ANF]]

The First Impact, in order to create the Moon, would have had to melt the Earth's crust. I think we can safely say that if there were oceans at the time of the First UBF, then they were of magma, with floating continents adrift on them.

Is there a mentioned time span for 1I? Anyways, the Earth was once covered by all ocean. Landmasses began to form from underwater volcanoes. How could you say, no oceans exsisted .

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 18:29 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

Is there a mentioned time span for 1I?

Reichu - do you have the citation to hand for Lilith's arrival creatring the moon?

Anyways, the Earth was once covered by all ocean. Landmasses began to form from underwater volcanoes. How could you say, no oceans exsisted .

Surface temperature ~1000C is not compatible with liquid water oceans.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 18:59 GMT

[AsukaxSohryux [ANF]]

Reichu - do you have the citation to hand for Lilith's arrival creatring the moon?



Surface temperature ~1000C is not compatible with liquid water oceans.

OK I can get technical now. After the earth formed, the surface and atmosphere was very high in temperature. As the volcanoes on earth began to errupt, volcanic condensation formed clouds, cooled surface temps and it began to rain. Rained for incredably long time, oceans began to form. Landmasses wherent visable because they were not big enough.Bla Bla Bla I could go more detailed if I have to.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 19:04 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

Reichu - do you have the citation to hand for Lilith's arrival creatring the moon?

It is in the NGE2 doc, under Lilith's section. (I told Reichu that I wouldn't post any of it until it was finished)

:cough: rockthing :cough: less slack, more work!

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 19:10 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

OK I can get technical now.

[AOL]Me too[/AOL]

I admit I'm not up on recent thinking about the period from 1 to 4 Gyr ago.

The consensus on the Mars-size impactor Moon formation event is that it would have melted the surface, volatilized the oceans, and probably dispersed any previous surface water that what remained would be as dehydrated as the Moon currently is.

The planetary supply of volatiles is most likely to have come in the form of cometary impacts, especially during the series of impact events about 3.9 Gyr ago that formed the major basins on the lunar surface.

At this time, intervention of Seeds of Life aside, the earliest traces of life have been found in ancient continental shield rocks. This fits with the shallow pool model for the formation of life around the shores of newly filling oceans.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 19:13 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Reichu - do you have the citation to hand for Lilith's arrival creatring the moon?

According to the textbook in #07, GI "is believed to have happened 4 billion years ago". I looked up real-life GI and the timeframe is given more specifically as 4.533 billion years, although I don't know how applicable this is, since the real GI calls for a Mars-sized object, not something as dinky as the Black Moon. But let's just assume that it coincides anyway. According to the real-life primordial soup scenario (which isn't really a very professional term for it, is it?), very primitive life began between 3.8 and 3.5 billion years ago. (Although this isn't my area of expertise, at all, so that might be off.)

(Lazily plagiarized from my off-topic post here. )

The First Impact, in order to create the Moon, would have had to melt the Earth's crust. I think we can safely say that if there were oceans at the time of the First UBF, then they were of magma, with floating continents adrift on them.

Funny you should use "UBF" now... I actually deleted it from the Geektionary revision I'm working on because I didn't think anybody actually used it anymore. (Or anybody besides me actually used it in the first place. Heh heh heh.) Maybe we need a new acronym for this: SBF, or "Seed Bitch Fight". (And it's just one-on-one, as opposed to one-on-nine, anyhow.)

There are some comments in the NGE2 about Giant Impact and the formation of Earth's satellite, but the language used gets my head a-roll, so I'm going to wait and see what Ornette's buddy cooks up first.

What is the estimate for when the oceans, atmosphere, etc., developed, anyhow? Lilith's efforts fit into Real Life, after all. Or, uh... can/do they?

EDIT: Blargh, this is what happens during rapid-fire posting sessions!

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 19:20 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

I looked up real-life GI and the timeframe is given more specifically as 4.533 billion years, although I don't know how applicable this is, since the real GI calls for a Mars-sized object, not something as dinky as the Black Moon.

Why couldn't the black moon be on the mars sized object? You now have permission to go competely to town.

Also, perhaps the two spears in one idea is not so crazy. After all, how else can we explain two Sources of Life, and only one spear? Consider the spear's double helix shape as it floats away with Yui.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2006, 19:53 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

Maybe we need a new acronym for this: SBF, or "Seed Bitch Fight".

Sorry, that term is already in use.

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 08:10 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

Why couldn't the black moon be on the mars sized object? You now have permission to go competely to town.

I'd assume the requirement of a Mars sized object is not so much based on the volume of the object (an object that takes up as much space as Mars) but moreso on the mass (something that has as much mass as Mars). The black moon could just be REALLY dense, it being considerably smaller than Mars (based off of its size in 26') however it consisting of some super dense material (alluding to the neutrino scan), dense enough to have the same mass.

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 08:36 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Also, perhaps the two spears in one idea is not so crazy. After all, how else can we explain two Sources of Life, and only one spear? Consider the spear's double helix shape as it floats away with Yui.

... I really don't follow. Plus, you also appear to have not read my extensive replies above. You know, I write them for a reason.

Sorry, that term is already in use.

WAHHHHHH I DON'T GET IT!!!!

I'd assume the requirement of a Mars sized object ...

For some reason, I'm also reminded of the Second Impact cover-up. But since I don't know Jack or Jill about this stuff, I'll leave it to you boy-uz.

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2006, 08:48 GMT