OMF wrote:The "it" that I speak of is the body of Eva Unit-01. The huge and terrible creature clad in purple armour. What of Yui? Yui is "within" this beast, at its center, it's driving soul. Though Yui is now the Eva, the Eva is not nessesarily Yui. I might harp back to that old argument about the interchangability of the cores here.
She is not within the beast, she is the beast. Are you within your own body, or is your body you? Answer that question, and you have your own answer.
When I talk about the "it" of Unit-01, I mean something like a suit of armour, a battle dress if you will. Yui is like the person wearing the armour, but the armour itself still has its own, seperate symbolism.
Sorry, OMF, but that just doesn't hold any water, as far as I'm concerned.
Unit-01 never really comes across as a paticularly feminine figure. With the exception of it's protection of Shinji in episode #01, most of the time Unit-01 behaves as an "Oni" demon, beastial and terrifying. Contrast this with Yui, who in all her "personal" scenes, is a serene and peaceful figure. This is the reason I speak of the "it" of Unit-01, to distinguish this demonic figure from the almost angelic Ikari Yui.
Do you really believe that oni (no need to add 'demon', that would be an oxymoron) only come in male form? If so, then where do baby oni come from?
Seriously, though, you really badly need to watch a nature documentary. I've seen plenty terrifying, vicious, and violent female creatures in my time. The female Wolverine would be a good place to start, if you are curious.
So when I say Shinji is in terror of "it", I mean it is the form of the raging Eva he fears, not his mother.
I'll grudginly admit that you aren't one hundred percent wrong, but you aren't strictly corect either. The scene right after EVA-03/Bardiel has been defeated, Shinji identifies himself directly with this form. His identification is because of the fact that during synchronisation, the Eva and the pilot more or less become one. It is an imperfect joining, but still a joining.
Though he knows by now that the two are linked, he must surely resent the fact that his mother is enveloped in such a form. The fearsome body of the Eva, which he controls, might be regarded as something subtlely distinct from the soul of his mother, which he synches with to control this demon.
With regard to the first portion that I have emboldened I'm going to be forced to play the hardcore academician here, and ask you for your evidence. You can't just make assertions like that. It's not self-evident, nor does it appear to logically follow. With regards to the second emboldened portion, if you mean that Shinji might regard it thus, then you may have a point. If you mean that it might be regarded thus by the audience, then that is what we are attempting to determine. I've also felt moved to italicise fearsome, just to draw your attention to the notion that this is a highly subjective judgement.
In short, I mean to say that the form of Eva Unit-01 is like a suit of armour over Yui, one which she did not always wear, but now cannot remove. Shinji also wears this armour with her during combat, and though he can remove it afterward, more and more it is swallowing him up, and he both fears and reviles the violent form of this carapace.
If she were to remove it, she would be little more than a vagrant soul, and entirely disembodied. During synchronisation, Shini becomes one with the Eva, but he does not don her body like a suit of armor. His soul and hers become of one consciousness, and they share that consciousness between both bodies. When one is hurt, the other hurts too. When Shinji wishes to move, the Eva moves. If the bindings were not in place, Yui would be able to walk around for herself, which I believe is something that suits of armour have been historically incapable of.
On the seperate issue of the Eva's gender. Lilith is surely more of a female figure than male. The same with Adam. As the Eva's are "copies" of either, I'd take it that they are more female than male as well. That said, I still don't really have enough motivation to refer to Lilith as a "she". The same with Adam and the Evas.
So you accept that the balance of probability is that they are female, but that's not enough motivation to use female pronouns? OK. I'm taking that concept on board, here.
They remain "its" to me, not because I don't want to ascribe gender to them, but because they remain so otherworldly and different. Do we refer to possible extraterrestrial beings as hes or shes or its.
That would depend on whether you are speaking of them as the indefinite article or the definite article. In the general case, I will refer to the (hypothetical) Reticulans by no gender-specific pronoun because they may be male or female. It is likely that they may be both male and female. It is even likely that they may not be either male or female. Since all of these cases refer to people and not to objects, though, I shall chose the neuter pronoun "ve" instead of he or she. Though not generall accepted, this pronoun is the solution to a long-standing problem in English, namely that "it" may generally only refer to objects, and not to people.
The Eva's remain for me its, both because of their quasi-robotic nature, and their seeming lack of a countergender on which to base a comparision.
If by countergender you mean a male to balance the Evangelion females that we have seen thus far, it is clear that the character designers consider several of the angels to be male. I can offer evidence for this in the form of "Angel Kiss". Male Evangelions are theoretical, but there is no evidence which suggests that they could not exist, simply that they do not.
Just on this point. What of the Mass production Evas? Now I do refer to these as "its". It certainly suits them better than "shes", wouldn't you think?
No. They are what they are, madam. I hope you don't mind me calling you madam, Suzy. It seems to suit you better, and I don't have sufficient motivation to call you OMF.
Originally posted on: 19-May-2005, 19:04 GMT
) I dunno, read that thread if you get the chance; this is getting horribly off-topic.
