The Nature of Rei. Again.

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Knives [ANF]
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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Soluzar wrote:Simple question for you: Is your main objection to the notion that Rei has the soul of Lileth the fact that this would require Lileth's soul to be in multiple places at once? I did already ask you this, but I dare say it got lost in the overall noise, so I ask you again, now.


Thank you for asking for clarification.
No, my main objection to the notion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is not held solely in that it would require Lilith's soul to be in multiple places at once.

I agree — if Lilith's soul is indeed in Rei, then it would have to be the case that a soul in multiple places at once must necessarily be possible.

But I disagree with the conclusion that Lilith's soul is in Rei (this was the [3r] premise/conclusion that Jinpun and I were discussing).

Essentially, I disagree with this "[3r]" which supports the idea that Rei contains Lilith's soul ([3r] has been heavily defended in Reichu's Post #9 in this thread {I think that's the one}).

My main objection is with the conclusion that is made in the [3r] argument.

Here is a big concession on my part —
I will grant, that it is very easy to believe either one way or the other on this matter (once you see how I argue my case, you may or may not agree with me).

In other words, after presenting my case, I would not be surprised if few people agree with me (because if you disagree on any of the beginning premises, then the rest can [but not necessarily] fall apart — in which case we can fall back to the premises and discuss those, rather than argue about individual arguments [such as what was just done with the "Return Home" scenario]).

I can see the strong defenses in favor of Rei=Lilith (fundamentally, our arguments do not differ all that much in reality, as I hold it to be true that Rei has a unique connection to Lilith much like Jesus to God in Christian theology [who, essentially are the same person, but not ... sort of]).

What it may come down to is this:
I began my Defense of Rei under a particular premise — that premise being that Anno had a particular vision in mind.
I reason that if Rei has Lilith's soul, and not a unique one of her own, then Anno's particular vision is not being fulfilled (that is to say, it is contrary to what he was trying to get across to his audience).

So, in essence, the start of the argument looks like this:
(1) Anno intended to show the inherent value of the individual (that is to say, value is not derived from anything other than ourselves).
(2)
If the conclusion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is true, then Rei herself is nothing but a container [as Ritsuko states].
[b](3)
Being nothing but a container, Rei's only value is that of merely being tool for Gendo/SEELE.
(4) Therefore, if (2) and (3) are true, Rei has no inherent value.
(5) However, (4) is in direct conflict with (1) [in so far as it justifies Rei's use as merely a tool].
(6) Therefore, for Rei to have some inherent value [such that it complies with (1)], then (2) must necessarily be false.
(7) If (2) is necessarily false, then Rei must be unique [must have her own soul].
(8) If Rei is unique [has her own soul] then she has value, thereby adhering to premise (1).[/b]


Therefore, as you can see, there are many levels on which I acknowledge you may disagree with me. I accept that. But rather than attacking eachother and eachother's cases (which I too have been guilty of), I should hope we find where it is that we find disagreements and come to common ground (as Jinpun and I had done with the "Return Home" argument [we discussed back and forth until we finally understood and came to a level at which we both agreed, even if we still fundamentally disagreed on the issue]).




And again, the blue section is not the only defense — it is simply a starting point of sorts ... a summary of the main argument so to speak. Other things are included, some of which include a discussion on the matter of Rei's "inner" dialogues with herself and Rei I (which provide a different conclusion than that which Reichu has provided [the argument involves the Voice of Temptation ... a concept unique to my own thoughts which has yet to be presented here {so you may understand therefore why I do wish to make sure it makes sense before presenting it}]).
[[A note on the Voice of Temptation, since I know it's a completely foreign concept ... there is also what I call the Voice of Reason, present primarily in Ep. 25 and unique to the Cases of Misato and Shinji (that being the "Why did you kill him?!" and "Am I happy?" text ... {I don't think it appears for Asuka or Rei ... but I'd have to review that when I get my discs back})]] ... This all of course is something I'll explain when the time comes.





So ... in answer to your question again, no — the argument against "Welcome Home" is not the only argument I hold against the Rei=Lilith Conclusion.
My Defense of Rei is about as thorough as Reichu's How [She] Came to Know Rei (.. that was yours wasn't it?).
But I will grant that there are many grounds upon which we may find ourselves differing, and therefore huge spaces for discussion.
To suggest that my argument will clearly convince everyone that Rei does not contain Lilith's soul is absurd.
It would be like suggesting any one argument on either side of the abortion debate will convince the other that it is wrong.
I'm sorry for claiming that to be the case (as I believe I probably have done on at least a couple occassions).
I admit that it is open to (and I will welcome) discussion once it is prepared.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 23:58 GMT

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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Just a few questions...

First, just out of curiousity Knives, do you have your own [Conclusion-r']? Do you have different [3r] then as well?

Then, why can't Rei have Lilith's soul and still be unique? Why must she have her own soul to satisfy (1). I would say that there is something in between (3) and (4). Something like:

(3.5)But still, Rei finds a way to "become her own master" and decide for herself what she wants to do, hence giving her the uniqueness Anno intended.

Sorta how even though Rei was specifically created for Gendo's purposes, she took control of her future and "overcame the odds" (one might argue.).


Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 00:21 GMT

Knives [ANF]
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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

True. You could argue a (3.5) such as this.
And yet her decision to not help Gendo still only justifies her as a tool of SEELE.

But ignoring that (since it's not very strong in and of itself) (3.5) doesn't take into account Rei I and II, who also existed. They showed no signs of "taking control" of their own futures as Rei III had done — they did their parts as tools for Gendo.

To clarify ...
It's not just that having Lilith's soul wouldn't make Rei "unique" ...
It's more that ... having Lilith's soul would justify Rei as merely a doll — valuable only in that she is used as a transportation device.

And indeed ...
My [C-r'] is slightly different (but more similar than I think people realize).
My [3r] differs greatly as well ... I interpret much of [3r] ([3r-alternate] if you will) very differently.

I'm not sure I really responded well, however, to your inquiries.
In essence, I don't feel Rei III taking matters into her own hands that it necessarily follows that she therefore has inherent value ... she's still a doll assuming she's merely a shell for carrying Lilith.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 00:43 GMT

Jinpun [ANF]
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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Knives wrote:But ignoring that (since it's not very strong in and of itself) (3.5) doesn't take into account Rei I and II, who also existed. They showed no signs of "taking control" of their own futures as Rei III had done — they did their parts as tools for Gendo.



True, but if you believe that all the Rei's have the same soul then...

Knives wrote:And indeed ...
My [C-r'] is slightly different (but more similar than I think people realize).
My [3r] differs greatly as well ... I interpret much of [3r] ([3r-alternate] if you will) very differently.



I would be interested in seeing these...

Knives wrote:In essence, I don't feel Rei III taking matters into her own hands that it necessarily follows that she therefore has inherent value ... she's still a doll assuming she's merely a shell for carrying Lilith.



Yes she is a shell, but this shell changes Lilith. Does this mean Rei has Liliths soul? Probably not, but it definately shows Rei is unique, and asleast has some worth. After all, when she returned to Lilith, Lilith turned into Rei. If she were merely just a container that didn't really "matter" I would imagine, Lilith would have remained the big fat marshmallow (wo)man.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 01:49 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Knives, if Lilith is a unique person, capable of free will and with intrinsic worth as an individual, and Rei = Lilith, then doesn't that take care of the problem?

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 02:24 GMT

Knives [ANF]
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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Shin-seiki wrote:Knives, if Lilith is a unique person, capable of free will and with intrinsic worth as an individual, and Rei = Lilith, then doesn't that take care of the problem?


.. Not exactly. Because Lilith is the one who is unique, capable of free will and in possession of intrinsic worth.

Rei, on the other hand (I, II or III), is merely a vessel in which Lilith then is carried.

To suggest, for example, that my car is intrinsically valuable because I happen to be riding in it at the time wouldn't follow logically (the car being equivalent to Rei and myself to Lilith).

To expound, the individual which recognizes herself as Rei Ayanami is no more than a container which carries Lilith. Therefore, Lilith has intrinsic value, but her vessel, the thing which recognizes itself as Rei Ayanami, is merely a tool (valuable only in its usefulness for carrying Lilith).

Jinpun wrote:Yes she is a shell, but this shell changes Lilith. Does this mean Rei has Liliths soul? Probably not, but it definately shows Rei is unique, and asleast has some worth. After all, when she returned to Lilith, Lilith turned into Rei. If she were merely just a container that didn't really "matter" I would imagine, Lilith would have remained the big fat marshmallow (wo)man.


Agreed.
And it's for this reason that I conclude she must have some inherent value other than as a container.

To elaborate — if she has some effect on Lilith (some change as you put it), there must be, in some way, a fundamental difference between the thing which recognizes itself as Rei Ayanami and that of the soul of Lilith.

For if there were no difference, Lilith would not (presumably, as put forth by you) have taken on the form of an empty husk which holds no relevant meaning or value.

I reason, then, that this thing which recognizes itself as Rei Ayanami to in fact be the soul of Rei Ayanami (in this case Rei III).

Essentially, this is a different argument than given in Post #81 to reach the same conclusion.
Of course ... it only applies to Rei III directly .. but essentially can trickle down through II and I.

[[In particular, I address (or will address that is) this form of the argument when discussing Rei's inner dialogues with herself(selves)]]

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 02:52 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Knives wrote:I think you and I are the only people who managed to follow that (I'm not saying others didn't ... but from Reichu's reactions to such discussions, I wouldn't doubt it.



It's been awhile, but I mostly followed it. I think your problem is that you are too enamored with deductive reasoning. Drawing a conclusion from evidence requires inductive reasoning. For example, if someone shows me a robbin's egg, and I see that it is blue, that would be insufficient evidence to conclude that robbin's eggs tend to be blue; however, if i see fifty different robbin's eggs on fifty different occasions, all of which are blue, then I would be justified in using inductive reasoning to conclude that robbin's eggs tend to be blue. When EVA gives us multiple pieces of evidence that Rei has Lilith's soul, we are justified in using our inductive reasoning to conclude that Rei has Lilith's soul. In cases like this it is unnecessary to require that it be proved by syllogistic logic (1. If conditions A-C are met, then X is true. 2. Conditions A-C have been met. 3. Therefore conclusion: X is true.). This is especially true in a cartoon. You can't expect EVA to meet your exacting standards of deductive reasoning.

(1) Anno intended to show the inherent value of the individual (that is to say, value is not derived from anything other than ourselves).
(2) If the conclusion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is true, then Rei herself is nothing but a container [as Ritsuko states].
(3) Being nothing but a container, Rei's only value is that of merely being tool for Gendo/SEELE.
(4) Therefore, if (2) and (3) are true, Rei has no inherent value.
(5) However, (4) is in direct conflict with (1) [in so far as it justifies Rei's use as merely a tool].
(6) Therefore, for Rei to have some inherent value [such that it complies with (1)], then (2) must necessarily be false.
(7) If (2) is necessarily false, then Rei must be unique [must have her own soul].
(8) If Rei is unique [has her own soul] then she has value, thereby adhering to premise (1).



1: You are starting with a premise that should be a conclusion, derived from evidence presented in the show.

2. Because a purpose is to be a container, that can be the only purpose?

3. That might have been Gendo's intent, but...

4.
Jinpun wrote:(3.5)But still, Rei finds a way to "become her own master" and decide for herself what she wants to do, hence giving her the uniqueness Anno intended


I couldn't have put it better myself.

Knives wrote:(3.5) doesn't take into account Rei I and II, who also existed. They showed no signs of "taking control" of their own futures as Rei III had done — they did their parts as tools for Gendo.



Things hadn't progressed to the point where they felt a need to do so.

5. I believe that 2, 3, and 4 are all false.

6. I think that you are misstating your own premise. 2. says that if Rei has Lilith's soul, then she is only a container. If 2 is false, then Rei with Lilith's soul must be more than just a container. You need 2 to be true to demonstrate that as Rei is not just a container, then she must not have Lilith's soul. (If the original syllogism is true, then the contrapositive must be true as well.) I believe 2. is false.

7. As I just stated, 2 actually needs to be true to support your argument; it is false.

8. The ample evidence that all 3 Reis share the same soul indicates that this does not keep you from being a unique individual. Their personalities are dissimilar.

To elaborate — if she has some effect on Lilith (some change as you put it), there must be, in some way, a fundamental difference between the thing which recognizes itself as Rei Ayanami and that of the soul of Lilith.

For if there were no difference, Lilith would not (presumably, as put forth by you) have taken on the form of an empty husk which holds no relevant meaning or value.



This seems a little weak. Wouldn't it be beyond the abilities of even an extrodinary and unique indivdual to seize control of two beings with god-like powers, and put their powers to use? Wouldn't she have to already have god-like powers herself to do so? This can only imply that she had Lilith's soul.

The consensus around here is that Lilith takes on Rei's appearance because due to her experiences as Rei, she has for all intents and purposes become Rei.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 03:38 GMT

tv33 [ANF]
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Postby tv33 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

Knives wrote:.. Not exactly. Because Lilith is the one who is unique, capable of free will and in possession of intrinsic worth.

Rei, on the other hand (I, II or III), is merely a vessel in which Lilith then is carried.

To suggest, for example, that my car is intrinsically valuable because I happen to be riding in it at the time wouldn't follow logically (the car being equivalent to Rei and myself to Lilith).

To expound, the individual which recognizes herself as Rei Ayanami is no more than a container which carries Lilith. Therefore, Lilith has intrinsic value, but her vessel, the thing which recognizes itself as Rei Ayanami, is merely a tool (valuable only in its usefulness for carrying Lilith).



Aren't you use flawed logic? Or at the very lest splitting hairs.

Saying Rei has no value because she is a vessel for Lilith is missing the point of Reis final development. The whole "Let's go. You've existed for the sake of today, this day, Rei." followed by

Rei:
I'm not your doll.

Gendo:
Why!?

Rei:
Because I'm not you.



See doesn't need the role she was created for to give her life value, or to have her fate determined for her. She was created for Gendo's sake, yet clearly doesn't want to fulfill that role.

To say Rei is only a vessel also missed the point in episode 25...

Rei: Why do you have a false mind and a false body?

Rei: Not false, for I am I.


......


Rei: I am I.
I've become me through the instrumentality of the links
between me and others.

Rei: I've been formed by interaction with others.

Rei: The interaction with people and the flow of time change
the shape of my mind.



Because of her interaction with other people the being known as "Rei" is formed. And this does not only apply to her. We see the same with Shinji at the end of episode 26.

Shinji: My shape?

My image.

Misato: Yes. You are getting to know your own shape through
seeing others' shapes.

Asuka: Seeing others' walls, you imagine yourself.

Rei: You cannot see yourself unless there are others.

Shinji: Because there are others, I can exist.
If alone, I am always alone anywhere.
The world is entirely from me..

Misato: By recognizing the difference between yourself and
others, you form an image of yourself.

Rei: The very first other person is your mother.

Asuka: Your mother is a different person from you.

Shinji: Yes. I am I. Yet, it's true that others form the shape
of my mind.



Rei, like Shinji and everyone else is the world forms a self identity through their interaction with others. Although Rei might have started out as a blank slate, or an empty vessel, through her interaction with other, she is able to perceive herself as an individual. This is a key point in the last two episodes.

Rei is Lilith, she is the self perceived through her interaction with the others in the show. We even see in EoE she still maintains her "Rei" form because that is the person she has become.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 03:41 GMT

Knives [ANF]
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Postby Knives [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

... I just spent ... *checks the clock* and hour responding to tv33 and Wayne ... only to have IExplorer crash and lose everything as I hit the submit button.
Image Image Image Image
... I hate Microsoft Image

Forgive me ... but I don't feel like retyping it all right now.
I'll reply ... probably not until late Thursday night or possibly even Friday.
(things are busy until then)

Stupid, stupid computer !!!!

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 07:58 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:30 pm

My own feeling is that my Rei thread -- which you claim you have a zillion and one problems with -- effectively addresses the entire matter of how Rei has become a unique individual. Although she becomes Lilith again, she holds onto what she has become through her experiences in a human body. The fact that she does this seems to imply that even though she is false, a creation of Gendo, this doesn't matter to her because she values her own existence.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 09:02 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

All carbon-based life is supposed to be from her. I have pointed out this problem before -- how can we originate from a lifeform that is made out of an entirely different form of matter? That Lilith is made out of 'angel stuff' is never stated, of course, but it can be indirectly extrapolated by the fact that her daughter, EVA-01, is able to assimilate (or otherwise devour) the stuff:



Yeah I also questioned something like that with the angels and the humans before, about how even with the 90%< identical genetics, humans are sooooo different from most angels. But someone said it is because the difference came from their choices of how they wanted to exist(something that Misato said in EoE)... which I don't think explain anything at all since genetics = how an organism will be and if angles chose to be that much different from us, their genetics should also be different... I think Anno just messed up trying to connect Angels to humans too directly.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 09:48 GMT

Soluzar [ANF]
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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Knives wrote:Thank you for asking for clarification.
No, my main objection to the notion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is not held solely in that it would require Lilith's soul to be in multiple places at once.

I agree — if Lilith's soul is indeed in Rei, then it would have to be the case that a soul in multiple places at once must necessarily be possible.

But I disagree with the conclusion that Lilith's soul is in Rei (this was the [3r] premise/conclusion that Jinpun and I were discussing).


This represents a significant shift in what I have (erroneously) viewed as being the basis of the debate. I had believed for quite some time that this represented the fundamental source of your dissatisfaction with the prevalent views on the Lileth/Rei/Zerogouki matter, and now that I discover that this is not the case, I admit that I am more open to the ideas that you might present. I still don't believe myself likely to be convinced by them, but I am fascinated to hear what you had to say.
In my view, it is clearly possible to show that within the world of NGE, souls do possess the ability to reside in more than one body at once, whether by divisibility, or some variety of quantum magic, or what I can't say. I believe that to be demonstrable without reference to either Lileth or Rei, or even to Zerogouki, but that must surely be a topic for another thread, now that it has proved irrelevant to your theory.

Knives wrote:I can see the strong defenses in favor of Rei=Lilith (fundamentally, our arguments do not differ all that much in reality, as I hold it to be true that Rei has a unique connection to Lilith much like Jesus to God in Christian theology [who, essentially are the same person, but not ... sort of]).

What it may come down to is this:
I began my Defense of Rei under a particular premise — that premise being that Anno had a particular vision in mind.
I reason that if Rei has Lilith's soul, and not a unique one of her own, then Anno's particular vision is not being fulfilled (that is to say, it is contrary to what he was trying to get across to his audience).

So, in essence, the start of the argument looks like this:
(1) Anno intended to show the inherent value of the individual (that is to say, value is not derived from anything other than ourselves).



Come now, you are a logician of far greater prowess than I. Surely you must agree that it is possible to set out an initial premise and come to any number of conclusions? The number must, of course, be finite, since it would exclude all of the conclusions not supported by the initial premise and the intermediate reasoning, but there is usually more than one possible conclusion? I submit that your reasoning is fundamentally correct, but that it misses a crucial point. I can't even claim to entirely follow the defense that TheWayniac, TV33 and Jinpun have employed in full detail, but I believe that valid points are being made, and that they can be boiled down to a simple synthesis.

Knives wrote:(2) If the conclusion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is true, then Rei herself is nothing but a container [as Ritsuko states].
(3) Being nothing but a container, Rei's only value is that of merely being tool for Gendo/SEELE.
(4) Therefore, if (2) and (3) are true, Rei has no inherent value.
(5) However, (4) is in direct conflict with (1) [in so far as it justifies Rei's use as merely a tool].



Here's my attempt at a simple, and possibly superfluous response. Points 2 through 4 of your scenario as outlined above would have represented Gendo's plan for Rei, no doubt. That she should be only a tool, and nothing more than a container in which the the "salvaged soul" of Lileth would "reside". That's a key phrase, in my opinion, used by Seele.

Point 5 of your analysis is also correct, but only if (4) were true. It is not. Despite the plans of Gendo, and largely due to the influence of Shinji, in my opinion, Rei has gone a large part of the way towards becoming a fully realised individual, by the time Gendo calls upon her to complete his scheme. It is at this point that she makes her choice to betray him, and at this point, she is nobody's tool. She is a fully-fledged individual, who chooses to merge her consciousness with that of Lileth. Her choice, not that of anyone else.

Knives wrote:(6) Therefore, for Rei to have some inherent value [such that it complies with (1)], then (2) must necessarily be false.
(7) If (2) is necessarily false, then Rei must be unique [must have her own soul].
(8) If Rei is unique [has her own soul] then she has value, thereby adhering to premise (1).


I do not deem the conclusions that I draw to be self-evident, or flawless, but I think you would have to agree that I (in common with many others) can use this scenario to prove that on the contrary to your point (6), Rei does indeed have inherent value, and therefore that your points (7) and (8) are no longer relevant.

It is my view that Anno was trying to show that even Rei, who was intended to be nothing more than a tool, can achieve her own individuality and unique value by virtue of her connections with others. This seems to be in balance with the rest of his message in the show.

Knives wrote:... I just spent ... *checks the clock* and hour responding to tv33 and Wayne ... only to have IExplorer crash and lose everything as I hit the submit button.

... I hate Microsoft


I don't use Microsoft. Come, escape the Microsoft darkness, and join me in the light. Image

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 10:35 GMT

Gaizokubanou [ANF]
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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

To suggest, for example, that my car is intrinsically valuable because I happen to be riding in it at the time wouldn't follow logically (the car being equivalent to Rei and myself to Lilith).



I know this really doesn't change the argument, but remember many items change in value if someone famous makes direct physical contact with it(such as that bat Babe Ruth used).

Now if Rei indeed have Lilith's soul, it gets even more interesting... by normal definition, Rei than met all the standards to be a human being since it has a soul and a functional physical body. However, the problem with Rei theory is that Rei is being identified as a vessle. This separate distinction between the physical and the mental of Rei can be logically applied to anyone in NGE, since they all meet the same standard as Rei in terms of having a soul and a body. In that situation, everyones' body is just vessle, and holds no value because their souls are merely in it as you are in that car of yours. So if the "mere vessle" theory is going to be applied to Rei, I don't see why it can't be applied to everyone else, and that just simply claims that all bodies are meaningless.

Another interesting thing is this. In normal humans the soul and body combination goes something like John soul + John body = John person. In case of Rei, ppl seem to be assuming that it like Lilith soul + Rei body = ??? person. The soul takes priority over the body since one is fininte and one is infinite. However, while the soul is in the body, bodily properties are still considerable, and that means in the combination shown above, Rei I, II, and III are not really Rei nor Lilith, but combination of both with both of their properties. And with LL, we can conclude that ??? does not = to neither Rei nor Lilith, which just confuseses even myself. The good thing is that is not the case. The real equation for Rei goes like this: Lilith soul + human body = Rei person. This means that Rei as a person is indeed unique, something that is neither Lilith nor the human body(yes I know this is also up for discussion, but I'm kinda tired and starting to forget what I'm writing about, so let me assume this for this moment).

So in case such as Rei's we shouldn't view her as just a body bag once a soul enters the body.

Oh Reichu don't feel bad or anything like that if you don't understand what knives is saying, because the ideas behind are actually simple(because they argue with most basic/irrefutable logics so it can't be proven wrong later). It's just that the way things are labled and discussed makes it look weird and complicated.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 10:36 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Knives wrote:... I just spent ... *checks the clock* and hour responding to tv33 and Wayne ... only to have IExplorer crash and lose everything as I hit the submit button.
Image Image Image Image
... I hate Microsoft Image

Forgive me ... but I don't feel like retyping it all right now.
I'll reply ... probably not until late Thursday night or possibly even Friday.
(things are busy until then)

Stupid, stupid computer !!!!



That's too bad, I was anxious to see your thoughts on my analysis. Well, this might be usefull when you retype it: I think I see the cause of the premise 2 true vs false confusion. You meant that the condition set by the premise, (Rei has Lilith's soul), needed to be false in order to suport your arguement; I was saying that the entire premise, (if Rei has Lilith's soul, then she is only a container), needed to be true in order to support your arguement. We were both correct, but talking about two different things. Our opinions, however, are the exact opposite. You think that the entire premise is true, but the condition false; I think that the entire condition is false, but the condition true. (i.e. I think that it is True that Rei has Lilith's soul, but false that this makes her only a container.) No doubt you caught this immediatey and mentioned it in your lost post, so I thought I would clarify it myself and give you a little less work to do. I wasn't trying to confuse the people who haven't taken logic 101 anymore than they already are, but as I might have mentioned I'm just a little bit rusty at this, or I would have realized that you ment the condition, not the premise was false right away. With that minor clarification, my arguement stands.

Tip of the day: Type any lengthy post in your word processor, & paste it into the forum window immediately before submitting. Much hair will be saved.

Originally posted on: 18-Nov-2004, 19:19 GMT

Gaizokubanou [ANF]
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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

ok is it my post that killed this thread? Image

Originally posted on: 19-Nov-2004, 22:37 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Gaizokubanou wrote:ok is it my post that killed this thread? Image



No, Knives said he would be busy for a couple of days, so he should begin posting again soon.

The real equation for Rei goes like this: Lilith soul + human body = Rei person.



Hmmmm...... interesting. I like your your formula; it's right on the money. (A little capitalist reference there Image ) But the conclusion I would draw from it would be more like: Instead of considering Rei to be a human with Lilith's soul, (most people's idea), or mearly a vessel for Lilith, (what Knives says she must be if indeed she has Lilith's soul), she should be considered to be Lilith embodied as a human. The trouble with my conclusion is I'm not sure if we can convince Knives that this would give her value as a unique individual. (Though I certainly think it would.) So perhaps we should go with your conclusion after all.

This means that Rei as a person is indeed unique, something that is neither Lilith nor the human body



Yes, an analogy would be the way hydrogen and oxygen come together to form something that is neither: water. Water is certainly usefull, and is, in fact, as neccessary as oxygen. I wonder if Knives would say that the two hydrogen atoms are a mere vessel, designed to hold the oxygen atom?

Oh Reichu don't feel bad or anything like that if you don't understand what knives is saying, because the ideas behind are actually simple(because they argue with most basic/irrefutable logics so it can't be proven wrong later). It's just that the way things are labled and discussed makes it look weird and complicated.



Yes, actually that sort of arguement sort of reminds me of the voice of Saruman: no matter what it says, it sounds wise so everyone wants to agree with it.

Originally posted on: 19-Nov-2004, 23:26 GMT

thewayneiac [ANF]
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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Hmmmmm......

Then again, maybe we did chase him off.

Originally posted on: 21-Nov-2004, 21:31 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

hahaha I hope not, cause whether I agree with him or not I find his argument fairly solid and good reading for internet forum. And extra perspective on any issue can't really hurt.

Originally posted on: 22-Nov-2004, 06:28 GMT

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

thewayneiac wrote:Hmmmmm......

Then again, maybe we did chase him off.



It's all your fault, Wayne.

Gaizokubanou wrote:And extra perspective on any issue can't really hurt.



Before you say that, read some of the "debates" involving RahOtaku and CuteAnimeGirl. Those hurt.

Originally posted on: 22-Nov-2004, 06:30 GMT

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Postby Gaizokubanou [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Where are they?

Originally posted on: 22-Nov-2004, 06:38 GMT


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