What Gendou said to Ritsuko: Solved? (seriously)

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

OMF wrote:Hello all. Just thought I throw my own crazy, unsubstansiated, outlook into the debate.

What did he say? What exactly did the old bastard say during that silence? It's driving everybody mad of course, and don't look at me! I haven't the foggiest notion!

I've racked my brains, watched the episodes over and over, read posts, conjectured theories, compared them, tried to justify them, wondered, pondered, thought and thought and thought. "I truely...", "In reality...", "The truth is...". What!!? What you pompous bastard!?! "...I loved you","...i respected you" , "...you are your mother's daughter", "...I reprogrammed Casper", "...Ibuki's your substitute", "...I was afraid of you." , "...I'm sorry it came to this", "...your the child I was caring for" , "... I never loved you" , "...Your just like me", "...I understand you", "...Something about your mother", "..I am your father" , "... 42"!!!! No don't edit it out!! NOOOOOO!!!

Then I watched it twenty times over....
....And I found an answer.

Now it's not for everyone!, but it works for me. Many, many people will disagree. Worse, some may agree! Why anyone would agree is beyond me, but I'll post anyway.
So what did he say? Like I said, I haven't a clue. but I will say this.

It doesn't really matter what he said in that silence...
......
......
(that's your big revelation? no!)
....What really matters is what he said before that.

I'll tell you what he didn't say. He did not say:
Akagi Ritsuko.

What he actually says is:
Akagi Ritsuko-kun.

It's right there, and it's SO easy to miss. I caught it just by fluke and had to quadruple check it to make sure I heard it right. In fact, I'm still not sure he actually says it. It's unbelievable! Incredible! He actually says it! Bowl me over and stone the crows! All I could say when I heard it was.... Lies.... Image

P.S.
Somebody please check this by the way. Does he really say it, or have I gone mad?
P.P.S
Needless to say, I'm talking about the original Japaneese language track here. This tiny detail is shamelessly left out of both the dub AND sub. Sly bastards...
P.P.P.S
If I'm in anyway right, I can smell a rather righteous dub vs sub vs go learn japaneese argument on the horizon. I just like to say, I'm not a troll... Gendou made me do it!! Image


We already said that. And yes, he does say kun. That doesn't give any true clue...because he could have either been mocking her or was serious with her when speaking.

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 08:27 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Sorry, in my haste I didn't spot Magami No ER's -kun. I'm guessing it was in the speech bubble on the "sneaky Rei" image. (I don't know any japaneese).

As you say Gendou is informal. It only came to me gradually as I was watching the show, but Gendou is unlike everyone else in that he will not append -san, -kun or -chan to anyones name when speaking with them. He never uses formalities at all, except twice to Fuyutsuki (sensei), once when he first meets him (eps 21) and again in EoE when he leaves for the last time. He does not even use formalities when speaking with the JDSF army men or with SEELE. Everyone else in the show uses -chans -kuns and -sans all over the place( so much so I originally thought Shinji's name was Shinji-kun. Is Japan actually like this?)

So apart from Fuyutsuki, who we know he respects, the only other time Gendou uses a postfix formalisation on a name is in EoE to Ritsuko. On top of it all he uses the -kun postfix. Now, I know next to nothing about this stuff, but isn't -kun a more relaxed postfix than -san. Doesn't it indicate a close relative, friend or well known companion?

This postfix addition by Gendou is quite deliberate. It's the only time he ever uses one to someone who isn't Fuyutsuki. It's the only time he EVER uses -kun, and to be honest if you asked me yesterday, I would have said that Gendou would never use -kun, ever. I think it's worth playing up, a lot.

I don't think it was in any way mocking. Gendou is not one to mock, and at such a moment it hardly seems appropriate. Gendou was dead serious here, and both his tone and demeanour suggest he was being absolutly frank in those final moments. He directly states Hontou ni.... He's being completely honest, and Ritsuko knew it. He's not mocking her.

He uses -kun. He says alound her full name, and then -kun. Akagi Ritsuko-kun. With these words, he says I think, "Akagi Ritsuko, one who is very dear to me". He's not saying "I love you", that's not true, and it's just too hammy for Gendou. He wouldn't say it even if it was true. He's not saying, "Your my lesser who must respect me". Gendou expects respect regardless. What he is saying, simply, is that she was not just another pawn to him, nor was she simply his bed-warmer. Here he is, a man who abandoned his own son, who treats human beings like chess pieces, who has shown not one fleck of remourse for any of his terrible crimes, at the eleventh hour, telling his shattered adversary, a woman who thinks he never cared at all, who thinks he used her like so many others and betrayed her at his convienience, here he is saying out loud;

"Akagi Ritsuko, you matter to me"

No other words are nessesary. Ritsuko is paralysed by such revelation. What did he say next? It doesn't matter. She likely didn't hear the words. Neither do we. All she can do is utter one retort, with her last breath. Is she defeated, ruined by his honesty and her own regrets? Or does she at the last reject him, passing knowing that despite her desolation, she is at least free of his spell? That was always my reading of her last line. She knew in her final despair she had lost everything, but at least she had lost Gendou as well.

Originally posted on: 31-Mar-2005, 21:47 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Just so you know, -kun can be mocking. The best example of this is female characters in anime who refer to all males as whatever-kun if they can get away with it; check out what's-her-face from "Excel Saga" (the coworker of the three goons). She was certainly using it in a demeaning manner. "Talking down" to her male coworkers, in other words.

Guys also tend to use it between themselves, but they also have a habit of using rather rude and informal Japanese to one another, as well. Typical males -- you know, calling your best buddy a "bastard" or a "daft bugger". Image Shinji and Kaworu called each other -kun, but the deal with them is what I'd hardly consider typical male relations... I suppose the connotations are not necessarily demeaning.

You don't often hear it appended to female's names... Fuyutsuki called Yui "Yui-kun", and we all know how well he thought of her. Image

I ought to stop babbling and do some proper research, as opposed to just letting my brain sewage spill out all over the place.

Originally posted on: 31-Mar-2005, 22:04 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

I just can't pass it off as mockery. I think it's the most sentimental thing Gendou ever says, and I think that it's that tiny postfix, and not the hidden words, that is the true cause of Ritsuko's reaction. As I say, she may have been so shocked that she did not hear the other words, so we don't either. So they're not important.

The other -kuns in the show mostly back me up. Misato of course uses -kun almost excessively when speaking either to or about Shinji. She even says it when he's not there and even when drunk!(eps 15) In contrast to Shinji who uses -san for Misato, even at home, and even in states of panic (eps 07,eps 16). This is just to contrast the differences in postfix use in the show. Shinji uses -san to keep her at a distance, Misato uses -kun to try to close the distance. Now Shinji does use formalities for other adults, Ritsuko, Kaji, and he is quite a formal person.(He's actually an arch-prude but that's for another thread) He does not however use formalities of any kind when speaking with or of the other pilots or his classmates. He seems to make that distinction except when speaking with or of Kaworu. And in this instance he uses -kun. Significant no? Is this the only -kun he uses?

Another significant -kun is Rei's use of it for Shinji. She refers to him as Ikari-kun. This is an even more important use of postfix. She refers to him as Ikari-kun to distinguish him from Gendou,whom she refers to as Commander Ikari. I think she first uses this in eps 14 during her dream in Unit One. Note in this sequence she appends formal titles to Gendou, Katsuragi and Akagi( She also refer to Asuka as "Nigoki Pilot" which is quite a revealing little line). But she uses -kun for Shinji. More revealing instances of this are of course to be seen in eps 16 and of course eps 23, as well as EoE.

If i wanted to play it up even more(and I do Image ), I might argue that this is what the director Anno intended. We'd all be so busy trying to figure out what we didn't hear Gendou say that we'd overlook what we actually do hear him say! If intended, it was a brilliant stroke.

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 10:56 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

http://members.tripod.com/virtualmekton/ate-iii-iv.html gives a beginner's guide to these things.

Books on the language I've read suggest that -kun is used for adolescent males and by men being "all lads together", but is strictly (originally) used when addressing one's social inferiors (e.g. by boss to subordinates).

The usages in the show tend to follow this - the committee talk to Gendo as Ikari-kun; it's almost universally Shinji-kun (except when he's Ikari-kun - or in his room sign as Shin-chan). It's the use of -kun for women that is problematic : is it talking down, or is it acknowledging her as "one of the boys"? Only context can really tell; and it's rather opaque in this case.

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 15:54 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

-kun familer title after name of colleague or student, usually male. Used for male friends and relatives. It can be used for women as well, but typically is not.

By that defination, -kun would appear mocking for Ritsuko. Any reason it's not typical for females to be called -kun?

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 18:11 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Magami No ER wrote:-kun familer title after name of colleague or student, usually male. Used for male friends and relatives. It can be used for women as well, but typically is not. [/b]

By that defination, -kun would appear mocking for Ritsuko. Any reason it's not typical for females to be called -kun?



Because that's the way things are.

It's like asking the same question of the (slightly archaic) English usage of "Master" as the title for boys didn't apply to girls (for whom Miss would be used).

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 18:42 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:31 pm

Sure, but what does it mean if -kun is used for girls, as it has been...

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 18:52 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Magami No ER wrote:Sure, but what does it mean if -kun is used for girls, as it has been...



The most obvious circumstance would be in the boss-to-subordinate mode (there's a fairly unambiguous one of those in RahXephon, where Itsuki is curtly dismissing Sayoko; and the use of Yui-kun is probably a friendlier version of the same); though it might be used for a girl who is "just one of the lads" in the informal mode. (Or maybe even overtones of both as in Touga to Utena in SKU)

In this case Gendo is actually being more formal than he usually is (i.e. rudely dispensing with all such social niceties); so I'm not sure what this was meant to convey.

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 19:25 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Done a little research, turns out there seems to be a female version of -kun, -ko. One of the sites mentioned something about certain honorifics being unsuitable for whatever reason. Maybe Ritsuko-ko was too stacato? It would be nice to hear from a native Japanese speaker 's opinions on this. this sort of thing could be regional as well. (I'm nearly positive he says -kun though)

Anyway I left out possibly the best -kun of them all. Fuyutsuki of course refers to Yui in the way. All through episode 21 of course.(He also refers to the elder Akagi in this way, though she seems a little old to be his student, and she's in a different field.) More critically he refers to Yui in this way during EoE;
In Air:
Fuyutsuki: I understand. Give my regards to Yui-kun.(Exit Gendou)
And again in, Sincerely Yours:
Fuyutsuki: Ikari, did you finally see Yui-kun again? (Gets Instrumentalitised, Exit Fuyutsuki)

Now given their relationship, Fuyutsuki's feelings, and Yui's sacrafice, you cannot tell me that Fuyutsuki's usage of -kun is in any way diminuating. It is a mark of complete, honest and intimate respect. A big "You matter to me" if I ever heard one.

P.S.
Is instrumentalitised a verb? Image

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 19:27 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

OMF wrote:P.S.
Is instrumentalitised a verb? Image

The prefered verbal usage is "complimented". "Instrumentality" and "Complimentation" are the same word in Japanese.

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 19:32 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

OMF wrote:P.S. Is instrumentalitised a verb?



That's complemented (as in complete); but "tangified" will do, at least to describe the externally visible physical effects. Or subsumed, or uploaded (into Instrumentality), if you're after the persona and not the corpus.

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 19:37 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:That's complemented (as in complete); but "tangified" will do, at least to describe the externally visible physical effects. Or subsumed, or uploaded (into Instrumentality), if you're after the persona and not the corpus.

Haste makes waste Image

Originally posted on: 01-Apr-2005, 19:40 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

I have never, ever heard of -ko as a "female" version of -kun...

And OMF, -kun is most definitely what Gendo says (says the person who regularly combs the Japanese scripts during debates), so you can stop worrying your little head. Image

Speaking of Gendo, I recently searched for any instances in the show where Gendo spoke polite Japanese. Only times I could find were in his initial encounters with Fuyutsuki. No sooner than Fuyutsuki has seen the prototype hanging from the ceiling, Gendo resumes his normal speech patterns, and I don't think he ever bothers giving Kozo the benefit of politeness again.

Originally posted on: 02-Apr-2005, 08:53 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Reichu wrote:No sooner than Fuyutsuki has seen the prototype hanging from the ceiling, Gendo resumes his normal speech patterns, and I don't think he ever bothers giving Kozo the benefit of politeness again.



Except in EoE Air when they part for the final time. Maybe Gendou was getting sentimental in his final hours? Image

I only found the -ko one one site, and as you say, he says -kun. Is everyone still taking the mockery -kun angle?

Originally posted on: 02-Apr-2005, 01:09 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Oh, hey, you're right...

"Fuyutsuki-sensei... Ato o tanomimasu."

Originally posted on: 02-Apr-2005, 03:19 GMT

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Postby Tominator2 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:36 pm

Gendo says: "I have solved the Riemann Hypothesis". He is truly a man without mercy.

Originally posted on: 08-Jun-2005, 15:25 GMT

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Postby Treize X [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:36 pm

Tominator2 wrote:Gendo says: "I have solved the Riemann Hypothesis". He is truly a man without mercy.



Great. Absolute randomness, with no source or anything, no theory explaining how that is, etc.

Mind telling us a few things? Namely, how you came to that conclusion and WTF the "Riemann Hypothesis" is?


Originally posted on: 08-Jun-2005, 17:43 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:36 pm

Treize X wrote:and WTF the "Riemann Hypothesis" is?



The Riemann Hypothesis is WTF.

Originally posted on: 08-Jun-2005, 18:26 GMT

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Postby Tominator2 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:36 pm

Treize X wrote:Great. Absolute randomness, with no source or anything, no theory explaining how that is, etc.

Mind telling us a few things? Namely, how you came to that conclusion and WTF the "Riemann Hypothesis" is?



The Riemann Hypothesis is the big unsolved question in number theory right, on par with the (recently proved) Fermat's Last Theorem. Anybody providing a proof (either way) would instantly become a math god. I will skip the (not really that hard) specifics unless there is general demand.

How did I come up with that idea? I thought "what could Gendo say that would really piss Ritsuko off?" keeping in mind that she's a scientist and knows a bunch of math. Why, that he could do something technical that she couldn't

Having my tongue firmly planted in my cheek helped.

Originally posted on: 09-Jun-2005, 08:35 GMT


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