What REALLY motivated Ritsuko to turn against Gendo in #23

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

I wouldn't worry about this stuff being preserved. :points to link in signature:

Originally posted on: 16-Apr-2005, 16:31 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

Yes.

Her behaviour makes so much more sense with this interpretation, rather than her simply being stripped in front of the dirty old men. It's also so obvious in retrospect. It was really staring us in the face.

Such a violation would have seriously affected Ritsuko on the inside. She kept her cold exterior for a long time afterward, letting it eat away at her until her facade just shattered. It really was the most brutally effective way to break her. Ritsuko was quite a prudish woman, before Gendou, and still retains a restrained air, so would have been disgusted and mortified by her treatment, on the inside. But she was never one to let her emotions show.

It would seem that Ritsuko had been broken, but she didn't emotionally snap until the end of #23. I wonder why? She had been effected enough to carry out, either on orders, or for her own reasons, the destruction of the dummy system, the image of Rei, and Gendou's solace. But she kept her demeanour throughout, until the end.

Ritsuko: Yeah, I know. Destruction.
These are not human, but human shaped things.
I lost against THE THING. I could not win.
When he is in my mind, I can bear any insult.
I don't care about my own body.
But he, he did...
I knew that.
I am stupid, I am as stupid as my mother. So foolish.
You can kill me, if you wish.
I would be glad if you did.

Misato: You are truly stupid if you wish that.

Ritsuko: (crying.)

Contempt for Rei and rememberances of Gendou make her hange her head and refect on her mother. She regains her composure for a moment, when she asks Ritsuko to kill her. But Misato's refusal to kill her truely ruins her, and she sinks to her knees, bawling uncontrolably.

It would appear, that she wanted to die. She wanted to take her revenge against Gendou, Rei, maybe Toyko-3, and then end it all. This was certainly her objective in EoE at least, working under the assumption that she was trying to activate the self destruct. Misato's refusal to end her is, I think, what finally makes her break down.

So just to resurrect that question that came up earlier, what was Shinji doing down there? Ritsuko seemed to be bringing him, not Misato, on a tour of Terminal Dogma. For what purpose? Well it seemed to shake him when he heard the news of his mother's death down there, and that he had witnessed it. Perhaps it triggered forgotten memories? In any event the whole thing was probobly an emotional trip for him.

If Ritsuko had wanted to die at this point, then perhaps Shinji was there, not to witness her actions, but to conclude them, by killing her. Perhaps she intended to mentally shatter him to the point where he would kill her. Telling him the truth about, Rei and his mother, and then disintegrate the very images of his lost mother before him. To make him snap perhaps? Enough that if she tossed that revolver she stashes in her coat pocket over to him, he'd finish her there and then? Or perhaps she'd simply plead, or maybe just order him to do it, and the ever complicit Shinji would just do as he was told.

It might explain why she brought him down there, alone, at any rate.

Originally posted on: 16-Apr-2005, 19:52 GMT

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Postby thewayneiac [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

OMF wrote:Yes.

Her behaviour makes so much more sense with this interpretation, rather than her simply being stripped in front of the dirty old men. It's also so obvious in retrospect. It was really staring us in the face.



Exactly. I remember watching that scene and thinking "Why is she naked? They didn't make Misato or Fuyutsuki get naked. Why should something like this break her?" But somehow, I never took the extra step neccessary to figure it out.

At last, the looooooong year of sitting on this top secret info is over. Whew.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 02:23 GMT

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Postby J Solt [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

Wow! All I have to say is just 'wow!' at reading Shin-seiki's latest installment. Like everybody else, it would never have occurred to me that SEELE might've had Ritsuko raped. It gives a whole new, chilling undertone to her response to SEELE, that she feels "no shame" standing naked in front of them, since presumably, according to the theory, by this time it was after the fact.

To be honest, as I was reading the post, I thought maybe the analysis had been taken just a tad too far, hehe. Maybe her lack of shame does refer to her having just been stripped down, I thought. But it explains perfectly Ritsuko's unexpected emotional breakdown in 23. A person can only hold so much. And being stripped down to one's birthday suit, as symbolic of humiliation as it may be, I don't believe can cause that.

I used to think that her line there in 23 "I don't (didn't?) care about my own body" referred to her gving herself over to Gendo, but it never made complete sense to me. The line made her sound as though she did stuff with him that she didn't want to, which is totally out of character for someone who is in love the way she seems to be, and the way she herself says she is ("You can do anything you like to my body", LTP). But now it makes so more sense. She wasn't referring to Gendo there, she was referring to the incident with SEELE, showing tragically just how "when he is in my mind, I can bear any insult."

And, as sad as it may sound, she probably very gladly bore that insult... until SEELE told her it was Gendo himself who had subjected her to that in the first place.

This brings me to a little question. Ritsuko does use that same expression with Gendo in 24', saying to him: "Why don't you just have your way with my body?! Like you did that time!" The words "that time" are so definite, and yet my impression is that Ritsuko has been involved with Gendo for quite some time now - even Kaji realized Ritsuko was dealing with a "sad love" back in episode 9 (something which I was shocked to discover today as I was watching the episode, lol). So for that reason, I'm tempted to prefer the LTP's "... as you did (have done?) before", but what does the original Japanese say?

And, forgive me for just repeating what everyone else has said, but it's true: Looking at it now, it really has been staring at us right in the face. Thanks to Shin-seiki for bringing it to light.

P.S. I don't know if this has been addressed before, but now that we have this new interpretation, maybe it might help us figure out the "missing words" that Ritsuko never finished in her breakdown: "But he... he did... I knew that!" Might she be realizing now (knowing that Gendo sent her over to SEELE) that he never loved her back, and realizing as well that she has all along known that inside?

And maybe this might even change Gendo's last words to her because it's possible that "the truth" was he didn't know that SEELE would do that to her. Only she wouldn't have believed him.

Okay, I'll stop with my rambling, and my ideas that are all over the place, lol.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 04:25 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

I attempted to dissect some of the Japanese lines for Shin-seiki a while back. Hopefully he'll post any of my notes that are relevant; and if he doesn't, I'll dig them up for you.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 04:53 GMT

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Postby AchtungAffen [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

There should be some kind of awards for discoveries in Eva analysis. Not long ago, I think Eva Monkey discovered blood on Asuka's arm-splitting. And now this. I feel like an idiot for not being checking AN regularly for the past months. For certain I'll be here regularly, for good or worse.

As an offtopic side note, as I read the Colombia and "plata o plomo" part, and I'm being a latam ape, I feel like I need to clarify a little more.

Don't know if in English the name of the country is Columbia, but well, the official name is Colombia. If history had any justice in it, that would be the name of the American continent, as Colombia comes from the name of the guy who found it, I think Colon (as we know him here, yeah, like the intestine) original name was Columbus or something. But, the guy who put the name of the continent was Americo Vespucio, which I believe was a cartographer.

As for plata o plomo. Plata does mean literally "silver". But the comprehensive meaning of it on that quote is none other than "money". There are lots of colloquial names for money throughout the castillian speaking world. "Plata" is almost universal, I think they'll understand that anywhere, and I suspect it has a lot to do with the Potosi mines. But each country has its own term: Duros (hards) in Spain, "Guita" (no clue where does that come from, probably italian or ancient castillian) in Argentina ["Cobre" - copper, also works, "Mango" (not from the fruit, don't know the origin) also], "Lana" (wool) in Mexico, and so on.

It has nothing to do with Eva, but well, I kinda feel the urge of being needed and speak because it's free.

Anyways, keep up SS! I'm anxiously waiting for the rest. And I don't think I'll ever have the face to question any of your Ritsuko related affirmations anymore.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 11:26 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:TDon't know if in English the name of the country is Columbia, but well, the official name is Colombia.

Image :fixed: (I had a vague feeling that didn't look right...)
Anyways, keep up SS! I'm anxiously waiting for the rest. And I don't think I'll ever have the face to question any of your Ritsuko related affirmations anymore.

Well, please don't treat every little thing I have to say as the definitive "last word" on this topic. I welcome everyone's feedback; some people (such as JSolt, with his post about the significance of Ritsuko's line in #24 about "My cat died...") have come up with ideas that are improvements to my own regarding this subject.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 12:20 GMT

Magami No ER [ANF]
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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

What could I possibly add to make this better? So little time to put together coherent thoughts...well, maybe later. Great job. Image

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 14:28 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

Partially answering my own previous post, and to add more ruminations about whether we saw the crucial instant, the "Do it to Julia!" moment.

I think we may have - but it probably wasn't the line SEELE might have intended to use as their lever.

We know that SEELE's information sources within NERV are imperfect, even though they have other channels besides the creative writing that Gendo submits by way of reports (don't forget that he airbrushes Ireul entirely from his submissions); but they don't get as much as they want.

Committee B:
It was because a bell wasn't attached to Ikari's neck.

Committee D:
A bell was attached but it didn't ring.

Kiel:
A bell which doesn't ring has no meaning. We'll make it work next time.

And with no obvious third parties to witness, they are unlikely to have picked up on this particular event

Image

as indicating the way to drive a wedge between Gendo and his chief scientist.

That SEELE open with

Seele:
We wish to proceed peacefully. We do not wish you to suffer from insults anymore.

makes it sound like we're seeing Ritsuko fairly soon after the necessary unpleasantnesses (needed as an earnest of intent, you must realise) had concluded, and before she'd started singing like a canary.

So it wouldn't have been the obvious

Seele:
However, it was none other than Ikari who presented you to us.
but
Seele:
Rejecting the interrogation of the pilot of Unit One [sic*], he presented you as her deputy, Dr. Akagi.

that would have been the weak point, explaining the later

Ritsuko:
Yeah, I know. Destruction. These are not human, but human shaped things. I lost against THE THING. I could not win.

but not why it's Shinji down there, rather than Rei, summoned to a plausible routine meeting, with the intention of a little bit of this (as Sadamoto suggested she might be inclined to on far less provocation).

[*I haven't checked back to see whether this is just the LTP getting the number wrong - it's not really important; she and we both know that it's Rei being referred to here.]

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 15:36 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

That's incorrect (about Unit-01), every other version (including the actual Renewal script) has it as Unit-00.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 15:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:10 pm

Well, you just have to listen to Keel himself. "...Zerogouki no PAIROTTO..."

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 16:15 GMT

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Postby Atma [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

*Is too lazy to read the thread before posting something that has no doubt been said before*

There was a "Cats in the Cradle" element at work, here. Ritsuko saw herself becoming just like the mother she hated (right down to a common, lurid affair with Gendo) and lashed out at him because of it. Basically there was nothing she could do and resorted to diabolical sabotoge. Sort of like how little bratty kids start smashing things when they're mad or didn't get what they want.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 19:12 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

Atma wrote:*Is too lazy to read the thread before posting something that has no doubt been said before*.



The important element is in post #153 - that a contributory factor was that she suffered "a fate worse than death" as it was once styled.

Originally posted on: 17-Apr-2005, 19:20 GMT

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Postby J Solt [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

OMF wrote:Contempt for Rei and rememberances of Gendou make her hange her head and refect on her mother. She regains her composure for a moment, when she asks Ritsuko [sic] to kill her. But Misato's refusal to kill her truely ruins her, and she sinks to her knees, bawling uncontrolably.



I'm going to have to disagree on this one and say that, at least in my opinion, I think it's just being completely overwhelmed with anger and despair that made Ritsuko collapse at the end of the episode, not Misato's refusal to kill her.

What effect exactly would Misato's refusal have on Ritsuko? She could've taken Misato's gun and done the deed herself, or maybe, as you hint later when talking about why she summoned Shinji alone:

OMF wrote:Enough that if she tossed that revolver she stashes in her coat pocket over to him, he'd finish her there and then?



she could've used her own gun to do it right then and there, or at any time up to her last scene in EoE. Maybe Misato's comment that she is "stupid" if she wishes for death made her whole situation sink in, but this was an emotional scene for Ritsuko. I don't think Misato's refusal had anything to do with it; she had to break down and let it out eventually.

Because there were so many times after that scene where she could've killed herself, and she didn't, I personally think she just said that in the grip of her despair. In reality, I believe she wanted more. That's why I agree with you when you say:

OMF wrote:She wanted to take her revenge against Gendou, Rei, maybe Toyko-3, and then end it all.



In 23', immediately after her meeting with SEELE (after Shin-seiki's eye-opening insights, "meeting" sounds like such an inappropriate word, but it's the only one I can think of now), when she's riding down the escalator, you can tell by her facial expression that she goes through sadness, pain, anger, and then resolve... as in "determined to get revenge". It's possible that after destroying the dummy system, she felt her revenge was complete and thus could now die. Yet in her last scene in EoE, it's clear she could've programmed the self-destruct to blow up the whole place at any moment... but no, she wanted to see the look on Gendo's face before she did so. She wanted her revenge first.

OMF wrote:If Ritsuko had wanted to die at this point, then perhaps Shinji was there, not to witness her actions, but to conclude them, by killing her. Perhaps she intended to mentally shatter him to the point where he would kill her. Telling him the truth about, Rei and his mother, and then disintegrate the very images of his lost mother before him. To make him snap perhaps? [...] Or perhaps she'd simply plead, or maybe just order him to do it, and the ever complicit Shinji would just do as he was told.



Good analysis. I hadn't thought about it like that before, but I can see it happening. And I like how you made it sound more plausible by leaning on Shinji's ever-complying nature. I wonder, though, if Shinji would've been angry enough to kill Ritsuko; I can see him definitely wanting to kill his father instead.

But another reason has just occurred to me. Maybe she wanted Shinji, not to kill her (or even to kill him - something which, as angry and desperate as Ritsuko may be, I can't see her doing), but to help her exact revenge on Gendo. Think about it: Ritsuko knows how Shinji feels about his father. Maybe showing him exactly to what levels his father had descended would make Shinji "flip" and turn him against his father. Maybe she wanted him to destroy the dummy system (without telling him the whole story behind it), something which would really devastate Gendo: his own son destroying the empty husks which are meant to carry his Yui inside.

Can't elaborate more on these right now, but I just had to get them down. What do you think?

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2005, 01:37 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

J Solt wrote:But another reason has just occurred to me. Maybe she wanted Shinji, not to kill her (or even to kill him - something which, as angry and desperate as Ritsuko may be, I can't see her doing), but to help her exact revenge on Gendo. Think about it: Ritsuko knows how Shinji feels about his father. Maybe showing him exactly to what levels his father had descended would make Shinji "flip" and turn him against his father. Maybe she wanted him to destroy the dummy system (without telling him the whole story behind it), something which would really devastate Gendo: his own son destroying the empty husks which are meant to carry his Yui inside.



That's a possibility too. She could not have failed to notice that Shinji's paternal relationship with his father is by now completely non-existant. Note how in their final discourse in episode #23 Shinji does not address Gendou by name or by title, and Shinji is always using formalities. More obviously, he used no such titles in episode #19 when addressing Gendou. I think after the dummy plug incident Shinji lost any yearnings he may have had for Gendou as a father, and was by now simply sick of him.

Enough to kill him? Shinji had shown murderous intent toward Gendou during his dream sequence in episode #20. As an aside, I'll mention that their final face to face meetings, both in episode #19, have all had bloody connotations, the blood red color in Gendou office, and Gendou doused with blood as Shinji battles the angel. Perhaps, the red light reflecting off Gendou's glasses as the dummy plug is refused as well? Maybe Shinji really had been intending to kill him.

On the other hand, Shinji is very moral and passive. He usually has to be driven to extreme lengths to get him to show that level of rage. He's still a very compassionate and caring person. The destruction of the dummys only seems to depress him, not enrage him. Ritsuko was the first to figure out Shinji's complicit nature. Perhaps she would have relied on that, and simply ordered him to kill her. Or Gendou?

Originally posted on: 18-Apr-2005, 10:59 GMT

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Postby J Solt [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

OMF wrote:...Shinji is very moral and passive. He usually has to be driven to extreme lengths to get him to show that level of rage. He's still a very compassionate and caring person. The destruction of the dummys only seems to depress him, not enrage him.



That's true. Although Shinji is normally passive, we all of course get to see him enraged when something needs to be made right. He may cry about it afterwards, as he did in Episode 3, but we do get to see that he can be violent when a moral right needs to be fought for.

OMF wrote:Ritsuko was the first to figure out Shinji's complicit nature. Perhaps she would have relied on that, and simply ordered him to kill her. Or Gendou?



Actually, in episode 23, she does seem to be trying to appeal to Shinji's emotions by talking about his mother's disappearance, engaging him directly:

"This is also the place where your mother disappeared. Probably you don't remember, but you were watching it, watching the moment when she disappeared." (LTP)

I used to think that Misato's following line "Ritsuko!" ("Doctor!" in the dub) while pointing the gun at her was just meant to show Misato's impatience, a kind of "get on with it!" But now I think Misato at that moment realized that Ritsuko was trying to manipulate Shinji's feelings for some reason unknown to Misato. Maybe it's as you say: to get him enraged enough that he would try to do what he thought was morally right.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 02:33 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

6I thought Misato thought that was an inopropirate comment to make toward Shinji, not to mention insensitive(though it sounded worse in the dub)...but that could be right as well.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 02:36 GMT

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Postby J Solt [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. She knew it was inappropriate, but also, I think, she wondered why Ritsuko decided to "go there" unless she had an ulterior motive.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 02:42 GMT

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Postby Atma [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:The important element is in post #153 - that a contributory factor was that she suffered "a fate worse than death" as it was once styled.


My-oh-my wasn't I missing a critical piece of information? Image

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 18:26 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

J Solt wrote:I used to think that Misato's following line "Ritsuko!" ("Doctor!" in the dub) while pointing the gun at her was just meant to show Misato's impatience, a kind of "get on with it!" But now I think Misato at that moment realized that Ritsuko was trying to manipulate Shinji's feelings for some reason unknown to Misato. Maybe it's as you say: to get him enraged enough that he would try to do what he thought was morally right.


I took this an an indication, that just as Misato knew the fate of Asuka's mother, do too she may have been aware, even vaugely of the manner of Yui's death. Perhaps she did not know Yui was absorbed into Unit-01, but she may have know that Shinji was present during the accident. In either case, I think Misato had been aware that Shinji's mother was not to be a topic of discussion.

Originally posted on: 19-Apr-2005, 19:20 GMT


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