Shinji and Asuka

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Postby gamemaster5552 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Face it Shinji needed Asuka to boss him around and Asuka needed Shinji because he needed here and Asuka only wanted to be envyed. I think that in the end they both loved each other but Asuka is to stubborn to admit it but I Shinji also figured this out by the end of EoE. I feel that he wanted to strangle her because she wasn't there when he needed her the most and that made him mad enough to choke her.

Originally posted on: 04-Jan-2006, 08:56 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:40 pm

gamemaster5552 wrote:I think that in the end they both loved each other but Asuka is to stubborn to admit it but I Shinji also figured this out by the end of EoE.



Hmmm... Could this be it?

Originally posted on: 03-Jan-2006, 21:08 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:40 pm

That is what Reichu et al. have been saying.

Originally posted on: 03-Jan-2006, 21:10 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:40 pm

OMF wrote:I'm not too sure about projection, but I know what I saw in the first strangulation scene.



I recently said (damn search engine won't let you look for phrases, so I'll have to paraphrase) that part of understanding this show is to fully acknowledge what you are shown and told, even if what you think you see or WANT to see are incompatible. Your preconceptions are the bear trap holding you back. But as long as you let that bear trap stay there, you're the only one who's getting hurt.

It's going to take more than one caress in a Bedlam inspired beach scene to convince me that the good ship A/S is anything more than flotsam being dashed to pieces over and over on the stony cold cliffs of End Of Evangelion.



Again, you're missing the point. Dismissing the narrative thread because you don't want to acknowledge where it takes the audience.

It's time for more pictures. And this time... there will be montages!!!



I have a feeling that it will be a paramount waste of time. Reichu's advice: "Don't bother unless you flush everything you think down the shi++er first, where preconceptions about NGE belong."

Originally posted on: 03-Jan-2006, 21:54 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Reichu wrote:I recently said (damn search engine won't let you look for phrases, so I'll have to paraphrase) that part of understanding this show is to fully acknowledge what you are shown and told, even if what you think you see or WANT to see are incompatible.



And that fully what we should do. Take what we see at face value. We see a lot in Evangelion, but hugs and kisses come up short.

Reichu wrote:Again, you're missing the point. Dismissing the narrative thread because you don't want to acknowledge where it takes the audience.



But where does this thread take us? Is Anno trying to tell us that love conquers all? Or is he playing some cruel joke? Was EoE a light of hope for a Shinji Asuka relationship? Or was it the last nail in the coffin? Lets brainstorm... again.

Originally posted on: 03-Jan-2006, 22:08 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

OMF wrote:Is Anno trying to tell us that love conquers all? Or is he playing some cruel joke?



On the "what is the message" issue - a meta-level matter that hasn't IIRC been discussed, what with all the interest being within the sub-creation - my take is that EoE is the flip-side to EoTV, in more than just being the exterior view to EoTV's interior one.

The latter shows Shinji's self-actualisation - while we probe the other major charaters (as opposed to the movers and shakers who stay in the background) in 25, the crisis is played out between Shinji and the chorus, none specially differentiated or singled out from the rest.

The former is by contrast the cautionary tale - stay locked in your depression, and if your world falls apart around you, the responsibility is yours by default. So don't be like Arthur Dent - listen to what it is your mother has to tell you.

Originally posted on: 03-Jan-2006, 22:18 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

OMF wrote:But where does this thread take us? Is Anno trying to tell us that love conquers all? Or is he playing some cruel joke? Was EoE a light of hope for a Shinji Asuka relationship? Or was it the last nail in the coffin? Lets brainstorm... again.



Methinks that you should pay more attention to what the Reichu says.

Wayne quoted it earlier. I think I summed it up in a nutshell. It takes NGE's entire narrative thread into consideration, unlike many of the anti-answers being offered up by anti-shippers.

Originally posted on: 03-Jan-2006, 23:37 GMT

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Postby Quattro Ninja [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

Someone told me that at the very end of EoE Asuka is dead- is this true?

I have got to see EoE- I know what happens(mostly) but I'm pretty sure I need to see it. By this time next week I will have bought and seen it.

Originally posted on: 04-Jan-2006, 01:20 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

Watch EoE. Now. Then ask questions.

Originally posted on: 04-Jan-2006, 01:23 GMT

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Postby gamemaster5552 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

I thought about it and here is what I think now. We all know Shinji needed Asuka and Asuka needed Shinji for various reasons. Now with that said I think that Asuka loved Shinji but was to stubborn to admit it and Shinji loved Asuka and knew that Asuka loved him she just wouldn't say so. And at the end of the movie when Shinji is choking her he is doing it because Asuka wasn't there to tell him what to do when he needed her the most. (the entire movie). So when she gave him a loving touch in the final scene I think he stopped because he realized that she finally admitted that she loved him and he loved her back. I think she says the final sentence "Disgusting" because she realized that she just admitted her love to Shinji and she said the quote because she is stubborn and can't belive she loved him herself plus its just what she would say if anyone said her and Shinji where a couple.

Originally posted on: 04-Jan-2006, 03:33 GMT

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Postby Ornette [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

gamemaster5552 wrote:So when she gave him a loving touch in the final scene I think he stopped because he realized that she finally admitted that she loved him and he loved her back.


Theoretically, they both would have already known because of complementation.

Originally posted on: 04-Jan-2006, 04:16 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

gamemaster5552 wrote:I think she says the final sentence "Disgusting" because ...



We know the circumstances in which that line arose: http://animaniajapan.livedoor.biz/a...s/17687653.html

This was done under Anno's direction - and it's a reaction to the scene in her hospital room.

We can't get closer to the horse's mouth than this what was happening in that scene, as much as the shippers deny it.

Originally posted on: 04-Jan-2006, 06:13 GMT

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Postby gamemaster5552 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:We know the circumstances in which that line arose: http://animaniajapan.livedoor.biz/a...s/17687653.html

This was done under Anno's direction - and it's a reaction to the scene in her hospital room.

We can't get closer to the horse's mouth than this what was happening in that scene, as much as the shippers deny it.




Oh sorry I didnt read teh link. I guess that could be right because that is something that Asuka would say to Shinji in a time like that. This also proves that she had to will to live and thats why she didn't fuse with Lilith-Rei and its not just Shinji who wished her there. I still think that it could also be part of what I said too.

Originally posted on: 05-Jan-2006, 08:14 GMT

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Postby Digitalex [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:We know the circumstances in which that line arose: http://animaniajapan.livedoor.biz/a...s/17687653.html

This was done under Anno's direction - and it's a reaction to the scene in her hospital room.

We can't get closer to the horse's mouth than this what was happening in that scene, as much as the shippers deny it.



You know I am an A/S Shipper but don't deny that "disgusting" has to do a lot with the hospital room scene. As for their relationship, I totally agree with Reichu's in depth posts and the consideration of the entire narrative thread to see things that way. When I ship A/S, I don't see it is a Disney happily ever after ending. There will be more trials and tribulations as they continue living on the scorched earth, but there is hope for them as a couple. I still see the caress as something symbolic of affection coming from Asuka, even with the choking, and when she follows up with "disgusting". Hey, Anno has a unique thought process. He doesn't present anything in a straight forward manner with regards to NGE.

Originally posted on: 05-Jan-2006, 08:25 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

One last opinion post to this thread (so feel free to jeer if I ever do another).

Asuka - introduced in ep#8 as a stereotypical redhead; she is shown pretty soon to be something slightly different : as is made clear by both her vast amount of personal effects and her status obsession she is following the "rich bitch" script. And as such, this does include being a thick shell around a soft centre of "poor little rich girl". Only the point in that script where what starts as "slumming it" would (in a stereotypical rom-com setting) turn into something different, the male lead doesn't follow his lines. Metaphorically, in more than one sense, Asuka is now "off the rails", and spends the rest of the TV series leaking through the broken shell. When she vanishes from the narrative, it is just one - and by far from being the most serious - of the hammerblows that leave Shinji isolated.

In Complementation, she is treated no different to Rei (though their lines are sorted according to their personalities), and is just another face in the crowd at the end.


Thus far, the suggestion of active affection on her part seems a needless multiplication of hypotheses. And this has turned out to be not your stereotypical show, the idea that the apparent stereotypes to which characters hewed have been overthrown is given weight.

EoE (and the DC scenes) - I do wonder at times whether Hollywood engendered expectations have forced the interpretation of the film into a Procrustean bed, the one that makes people refuse to take at face value something else that we are shown in great and loving detail : even though it is a movie that sprang from a group of SF fans who are able to flaunt their knowledge of the genre (as well as wide-ranging gratuitous pedantry) elsewhere in their oevre.

It may be a quirky little neurosis of mine Image, but I see the consensus interpretation being guided by comfortable preconceptions, rather than accepting that things might be shown that are significantly transgressive : dangerous ideas like the one that female characters might be shown as counterpoint to male ones; or that endings need not be happy.

But then I might just be looking at life through crap-coloured glasses. Image

Originally posted on: 06-Jan-2006, 19:22 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:In Complementation, she is treated no different to Rei (though their lines are sorted according to their personalities), and is just another face in the crowd at the end.



Can you elaborate?

Thus far, the suggestion of active affection on her seems a needless multiplication of hypotheses. And this has turned out to be not your stereotypical show, that the apparent stereotypes to which characters hewed have been overthrown is given weight.



What is hypothetical about it? The show itself makes it lucidly clear that she is attracted to Shinji in whatever manner, despite the fact that, as is also made clear, she has a huge problem with accepting those feelings, hence the raging denial she expresses whenever she isn't letting any of it slip out. Because the constant claims that she hates and is repulsed by Shinji are clearly made out to be self-denial on her part (one of Asuka's most potent afflictions...), the instances of "leakage" are thus representative of the inner self, NOT evidence that she is not attracted to him. Accepting the other revelations about Asuka's inner self while adamantly denying the ones about feelings of tenderness towards Shinji is a gaping, pus-filled example of personal bias, not to mention a blatant failure to acknowledge what the story itself is telling you. And, I might add, what we ourselves have been telling you for over a year now...

EoE (and the DC scenes) - I do wonder at times whether Hollywood engendered expectations have forced the interpretation of the film into a Procrustean bed, the one that makes people refuse to take at face value something that we are shown in great and loving detail : even though it is a movie that sprang from a group of SF fans who are able to flaunt their knowledge of the genre (as well as wide-ranging gratuitous pedantry) elsewhere in their oevre.



Begging your pardon? What are we refusing to take at face value here? "What are you doing there?" "You won't even hold me!" "If I can't have all of you, I don't want you at all!" "Image" ":caress:" Etc., etc., etc. Are we supposed to just ignore these or write them off? I wasn't aware we were obligated to believe everything that Asuka says. You take what you are shown at face value unless given ample reason not to. Asuka doesn't just give us ample reason, she gives us a rancid, stinking cesspool of it. She makes it pretty damn obvious the discrepancy between her self-denial and the Asuka that exists beneath all that. You recognize MOST of that inner Asuka, just not the part where your least favorite character (the avatar of the director, ironically enough) is concerned.

What part of this are you having trouble understanding, exactly?

Originally posted on: 06-Jan-2006, 21:03 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:42 pm

Reichu, you are forgetting that in the very midst of soul baring complementation, at the eleventh hour and at the final gate, Asuka utterly rejects Shinji, to his almost cosmic downfall.

Shinji and Asuka is not just a tale of two inevitable lovers stalled by their personal inabilites to communicate. There is very real and violent conflict between the two, both in their personalities and and actions; just as there is great similarities and parallels in their pasts and natures.

Shinji and Asuka are a pair, but a pair of what is the question? Star crossed lovers? Eternal Antagonists? There's a relationship here. A boy-girl one. A ying-yang one. It's a story of love and hate. Shinji and Asuka are mean to be...? Together? Apart?

Evangelion is a puzzle made of puzzles. Shinji and Asuka are one of the show's most intransigent enigmas. There are no hard and fast answers to their question. There never will be. We have to find our own answers, and we have to seek out the answers of others. Otherwise we will never understand Evangelion completely, or even begin to really do so.

Originally posted on: 07-Jan-2006, 01:39 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:42 pm

She rejects him completely -- and then later she shows up right next to him on that shore and caresses his face a la Yui. I'd say there's still some conflict going on in there.

Repeat: I am NOT an A/S shipper.

Question #1: What exactly ARE we debating over, anyway?

Question #2: I attempted to summarize the point of the A/S relationship earlier, and many people approved. Is there anything in my assessment that you don't, and why?

Originally posted on: 07-Jan-2006, 01:51 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:42 pm

Reichu wrote:She rejects him completely -- and then later she shows up right next to him on that shore and caresses his face a la Yui. I'd say there's still some conflict going on in there.


Exactly.

Reichu wrote:Repeat: I am NOT an A/S shipper.


That, we've known for some time. You have ever been, the antithesis of the Asuka apologiser, and we thank you for it!

Reichu wrote:Question #1: What exactly ARE we debating over, anyway?


Shinji and Asuka, as per the topic of the thread. However, you seem to have made a quick transition to an interpretive line, while the rest of us have been more slowing drifting from the simple "shipping" mode of thought.

Reichu wrote:Question #2: I attempted to summarize the point of the A/S relationship earlier, and many people approved. Is there anything in my assessment that you don't, and why?


Nothing. Your entire thesis was both logical and enlightening. The tradgedy of Asuka, the level of parallelism, the Hedgehog's Dilemma. It's all there in the show, and it's all crucial to the understanding of Evangelion.

My only point over the course of this thread, has always been to point out that, although these things exist, there are other, less romantic elements to the Shinji-Asuka relationship. It's not to refute your points, as they are very valid. Nor is it to downplay them, as they are of vital importance. The only objective, is to point out things, that may be of interest.

Originally posted on: 07-Jan-2006, 02:20 GMT

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Postby gamemaster5552 [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:42 pm

OMF wrote:Exactly.


That, we've known for some time. You have ever been, the antithesis of the Asuka apologiser, and we thank you for it!


Shinji and Asuka, as per the topic of the thread. However, you seem to have made a quick transition to an interpretive line, while the rest of us have been more slowing drifting from the simple "shipping" mode of thought.


Nothing. Your entire thesis was both logical and enlightening. The tradgedy of Asuka, the level of parallelism, the Hedgehog's Dilemma. It's all there in the show, and it's all crucial to the understanding of Evangelion.

My only point over the course of this thread, has always been to point out that, although these things exist, there are other, less romantic elements to the Shinji-Asuka relationship. It's not to refute your points, as they are very valid. Nor is it to downplay them, as they are of vital importance. The only objective, is to point out things, that may be of interest.



I agree with you the Asuka-Shinji relationships goes deeper than love that is only one aspect of it. Oh and if they don't love each other they better start because if no one rejects instumentality then they will have to repopulate the world themselves.

Originally posted on: 08-Jan-2006, 06:35 GMT


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