Commentary: Research

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Jinpun [ANF]
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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

Allright, here is the research page. Reichu and I thought this would be the simplest way of sharing new information and research. After it is brought here, we can all discuss it, and it can then be properly inserted into the Commentary. First a few ground rules:

Please, only hard copy references here (i.e books, encyclopedias, etc.).
All information must then be accompanied with proper source information, in MLA format (If you would like to know what the MLA format is, PM Reichu and she can give you a site).


Allright, now for what I was able to dig up. I did some searching at my library for anything involving the Tree of Life or the Sephiroth, and came up empty-handed. I then went broader, by looking for Kabbalism and Judaism, in which case I found some more info. Well here goes, I'll give the source info first, then what I took out:

(Note everything in quotes I got directly
from the book. No paraphrasing, word for word copied over.)

Actemeir, Paul J., Harper's Bible Dictionary, San Francisco: HarperSanFranciso,
Copyright 1985.

“Tree of Life, the – A well-known image deeply rooted in the mythological and iconographic traditions of the ancient Near East. Widely depicted on seals, reliefs, and other artistic forms. The sacred tree represents fertility, or ongoing life, as well as immortality, or eternal life (Gen. 3:9, 22, 24; Ezek. 31:8)

The biblical usage of this motif gives the contemporary imagery another focus, however. The emphasis of the Eden story is not so much on the life-tree though the motif is present…

Although trees in general play a prominent role in the metaphoric vocabulary of the Bible, the phrase “Tree of Live” appears in the Old Testament only in Genesis 3.”

Just a general definition I found on the Tree of Life. Thought It might be helpful, so I pulled it out.

“Seraphim (sair' uh-fim) – Fiery beings of supernatural origin. Seraphim appears in Isaiah's vision of God…seraphim have six wings. Two cover their faces, two cover their feet (a euphemism for genitals), and they fly with the remaining two. The etymology of the Hebrew word seraphim (singular: saraph) suggests a translation of “fiery ones”… Seraphim serve not only as guardians of the divine throne, but also as emissaries of divine judgment.”

I thought the whole “emissaries of divine judgment,” was interesting.

Allright, next document:

Seigel, Richard, Carl Rheins, The Jewish Almanac
, New York: Bantam Books inc.,
Copyright 1980.

I actually found a definition of Lilith, I was rather surprised, as I have searched before to no avail.

“Lilith – This creature is best known in Jewish tradition as the mother of demons. Because the Bible mentions an unnamed female human being with Adam (Gen. 1:27) before recounting the creation of Eve (Gen. 2:18-25), folklore identifies Lilith as the mysterious “first wife” in Adams life… By uttering the divine name, she escaped to the Red Sea, where she begot demon children by the nocturnal emissions of unsuspecting males. God sent three angels – Sanvei, Sansanavei, and Samangalaf – to fetch her back to Adam. She refused to return, but as a result must endure daily the death of one hundred demon children. She takes revenge by injuring infants – boys up to 8 days, girls up to 20.

One protects against her attack by posting an amulet bearing the names of the three angels mentioned above…

She is the alter ego of domesticated woman, of sibling-rival man, even of Gods Shekhinah.

But Lilith has helped to highlight more august tragedies in Jewish history. Mystical legend made her into a consort of God himself at one critical juncture: The time of the destruction of the Temple, whose ruins became their marriage bed. Simultaneously, the Shekhinah, went into exile with Israel… The Shekhinah in exile was a fundamental theme of the Kabbalah and eventually her exile gave rise to a new twist in the legend of the Shekhina, during times of suffering, especially just prior to the End of Days, begins to metamorphose into Lilith. She goes berserk, wreaking destruction and suffering in the world, until she can be brought back to her right mind by a change of heart in the upper worlds.”

I found it interesting that “End of Days” was capitalized like that, similarly to “End of Evangelion.” Also the whole metamorphing thing is interesting as well.

“ Shekhinah (Hebrew). The Divine Presence. Since this is a Hebrew feminine noun, Kabbalists and some modern Jewish scholars understand it to mean the femine aspects of God.”

Well that's all I would find for now. Some was interesting, some was not, either way, we could still add a few quotes so that we don't sound like total idiots -_-;.

I did find [i]one
book about Kabbalah, which has the ideas of the sephirothic ToL spread throughout it, so when I get time I will read it, its about 160 pages, so when I am done I will post it.

So what do yall think about this info?[/i]
Originally posted on: 05.05.2004, 06:52 PM

Reichu [ANF]
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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

It's interesting that you should mention Shekinah... Here's some stuff from my beloved Dictionary of Angels:

Shekinah ... - the female manifestation of God in man... The Shekinah is the liberating Angel, manifesting in her male aspect as Metatron. In the cabala, she is the 10th sefira Malkuth, otherwise the Queen. The creation of the world was, according to The Zophar (suppl.), he work of the Shekinah. ... In The Zophar (Exodus 51a) she is "the way of the Tree of Life" and the "angel of the Lord." Maimonides in Moreh Nebuchim regarded the Shekinah as an intermediary between God and the world, or as a periphrasis for God. ...Talmud tells us that when God drove Adam out of hte earthly paradise, the Shekinah remained behind "enthroned above a cherub under the Tree of Life, her splendor being 65,000 brighter than the sun"...



Eh, it goes on for a while more. But anyway, I might be completely on crack, but might it be possible to identify GNR with Shekinah, on some vague level or another? "The liberating Angel" is probably the one that really gets me, but it might be interesting to research her more and see if there are any possible correlations to NGE.

The Shekhinah in exile was a fundamental theme of the Kabbalah and eventually her exile gave rise to a new twist in the legend of the Shekhina, during times of suffering, especially just prior to the End of Days, begins to metamorphose into Lilith. She goes berserk, wreaking destruction and suffering in the world, until she can be brought back to her right mind by a change of heart in the upper worlds.



Wow, that is very interesting... I don't even recall having read this anywhere in the past, but it reminds me strikingly of a few spins I put on Lilith for my NGE-spinoff doujinshi. Okay, none of you really care about that, but I felt like vocalizing my intrigue anyway.

Good start, Jinpun! Let's hope we can dig up plenty more stuff!

Originally posted on: 05.05.2004, 07:11 PM

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

I've been trying to find proper stuff on "Absolute Terror". Unfortunatly all I get is stuff on the war on terror.

I'll try the Uni library.

Originally posted on: 05.06.2004, 06:24 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

Sharp-kun wrote:I've been trying to find proper stuff on "Absolute Terror". Unfortunatly all I get is stuff on the war on terror.

I'll try the Uni library.



I believe the term has something to do with autism, doesn't it? Perhaps checking under autism specifically, or maybe even general psychology, will turn up results.

Originally posted on: 05.06.2004, 08:36 AM

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Postby Fuzzy Chickens [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

Jinpun wrote:the Shekhina, during times of suffering, especially just prior to the End of Days, begins to metamorphose into Lilith. She goes berserk, wreaking destruction and suffering in the world, until she can be brought back to her right mind by a change of heart in the upper worlds.



Well, if that doesn't just SCREAM "Rei," I'll eat my hat.

*pictures an alternate EoE in which Rei uses her uber Angel powers to smash the invading JSSDF forces and Ryousanki, and Shinji has to talk her out of killing everyone on the planet*

Damn you Anno, you wasted so much potential.

Originally posted on: 05.06.2004, 03:31 PM

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

I'll back up Jinpun a bit:

"God created man in his image,
in the divine image he created him,
male and female he created them."
-Genesis 1:27

"God blessed them, saying "Be fertile and multiply; full the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."
-Genesis 1:28

This implies that there already was a woman on the fifth day. Eve wasn't created till the sixth day.

"The Lord God said "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him."
-Genesis 2:18




I've started doing reasearch into the Seven Eyes of God, using the internet to find references in the bible. (its such a large book). I would like a list, if you can make one, of a list of other reference to the number seven, no matter what I don't care if its seven times that Gendo picks his nose, to help and see if I can connect anything with it.

I was at the library today. And I didn't get much help looking at some of the books. I'll try a search at the library website and see if it narrows my search down. My school library wasn't much help either. So I'm going to probe the bible.

But those lists would be helpful. I'll form one of my own and see what we can come up with combined.

Originally posted on: 05.06.2004, 08:34 PM

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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

I found a little on the number "7" in the Bible.

Actemeir, Paul J., Harper's Bible Dictionary, San Francisco: HarperSanFranciso,
Copyright 1985.

"Numbers,
Symbolism and Significance: Some numbers in bilical usage had symbolic meaning. 7 probably represents completedness and perfection, as seen in the 7 days of creation and the corresponding 7 day week."

Well thats all I could find about "7". I'm still looking for more on the sephirothic system, but not much luck yet, still.


Originally posted on: 05.07.2004, 12:03 AM

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:52 pm

I have eveything I could dream of on seven. Its mentioned 735 times in the bible. I want to see if more research is worth the time, thats why I asked.

I have found some on the seven eyes of God, in the smallest book in the Bible, the book of Zakeriha. No connection made to Evangelion except for the ovious use of the symbol. Which we all know. In fact the stone head which the "face of God" appears on only pops up in two sections... not much to work with.

Originally posted on: 05.07.2004, 09:43 AM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

GPSPaz, I'd have to double-check it, but if I recall the Biblical account I don't think that Adam was created until the sixth day...in any case, Lilith is never mentioned (or, in my opinion, referred to) outright in the Bible, she's more of a Kabbalist thing...again, though, I'll hafta double-check.

Originally posted on: 05.07.2004, 12:24 PM

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Postby Gundampilotspaz [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:GPSPaz, I'd have to double-check it, but if I recall the Biblical account I don't think that Adam was created until the sixth day...in any case, Lilith is never mentioned (or, in my opinion, referred to) outright in the Bible, she's more of a Kabbalist thing...again, though, I'll hafta double-check.




"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'"
- Genesis 1:26

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day."
- Genesis 1:31

"So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them."
- Genesis 1:27


Lillith

But I was wrong Eve wasn't created till after the seventh day. My mistake.

Originally posted on: 05.07.2004, 12:44 PM

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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Figured I'd revive this puppy.

I believe Dr. Nick was asking for some more info on "Da'ath." I couldn't find much, really what we allready knew.

Schaya, Leo. The Universal Meaning of the Kabbalah. Baltimore, MD: Penguin Books Inc. 1973.

As always, everything in quotes was pulled directly from the text.

"It must be added that the essential and incorruptible unity of the Sefiroth is revealed not only by their reciprocal 'relationships', which are concentrated in the 'middle pillar', but also by their common light which 'circulates' in the 'channels' of these raltionships and is called da'ath
, 'knowledge'. This refers to the omniscience or universal consciousness of God which, properly speaking, is not a [i]Sefirah, but the cognitive presence of the One in each of them. In fact, da'ath is identified with every aspect of divine consciousness, from kether's 'first becoming consious' which is hokhmah, his pure wisdom, down to the last distinct and created reflection of the Sefiroth. And yet, considered under the aspect of 'omniscience' alone, da'ath becomes in the eyes of the Kabbalists a combined effect of hokhmah and binah; for it is then divine knowledge, which no longer rests exclusively in contemplation of the One, as does hokhmah by itself. Da'ath in this case is the knowledge which springs from the union of hokhmah, purely ontological wisdom, and binah, ontocosmological intelligence, and becomes the common intellection of the seven lower Sefiroth, by which universal creation is concieved, constructed and ruled.

But, let it be stressed, just as the 'middle pillar' as well as the 'right side' and the 'left side' of the 'world of emanation' are not superadded to the supreme and immutable decade, so da'ath is in no way an eleventh Sefirothic element."

So maybe that is why the site Dr. Nick found called Da'ath the "eleventeenth" element as opposed to the eleventh. Also, everywhere else in the book, where ever "Da'ath" is mentioned, 'omniscience' is mentioned along with it.

Reichu, Dr. Nick, or anyone else, is there anything in particular you want me to search for? I haven't had much more luck looking for more info on the ToL and the SToL (Sephirothic ToL). I'm done with school at next week, but my boss seems like he has been scheduling me a lot[/i] lately, but I will do my best with any requests Image.

Originally posted on: 05.23.2004, 06:15 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Jinpun wrote:Reichu, Dr. Nick, or anyone else, is there anything in particular you want me to search for? I haven't had much more luck looking for more info on the ToL and the SToL (Sephirothic ToL). I'm done with school at next week, but my boss seems like he has been scheduling me a lot lately, but I will do my best with any requests Image.



And you know I appreciate it, Jinpun! Image I'm going to be picking up some of my interlibrary loans tomorrow, so hopefully they'll contain something useful on the (S)ToL front. I still need to go through a LOT of the Internet resources that have been dug up (I'm fine with them, so long as they give their own resources; just whatever we can find in 'hard copy' is even better) by various folks and see if there's any info we can use and incorporate into the commentary. I'm being a bit of a slowpoke in this regard, but sometimes it takes me a while to digest this stuff.

But, erm, yeah, requests! I'm sure there will be a ton of additional things to look up later, no worries there... For the moment, though, here's a couple of things that come to mind:

- Depictions of angels in medieval (or possibly older) documents. I'm keenly interested in seeing if we can track down some of the visual cues that show up in the Sammael pic, and possibly elsewhere, since I doubt Gainax made all of them up. There are written descriptions, for example, of angels being covered in eyes, and if we could find some pictures of this, that would be awesome. Also, there is the possibility that the "Sachi face" has roots in tradition...

- Origins of "absolute terror field". You can find stuff about it on NGE sites, but we obviously can't use those are references, only as clues on where to look.

Originally posted on: 05.23.2004, 08:55 PM

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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Reichu wrote:And you know I appreciate it, Jinpun! Image I'm going to be picking up some of my interlibrary loans tomorrow, so hopefully they'll contain something useful on the (S)ToL front.


Well actually, I have more stuff on the SToL than I do on the ToL (surprisingly). Just the ToL would be good if you could find some, because I couldn't find much, most was the SToL.

Reichu wrote:- Depictions of angels in medieval (or possibly older) documents. I'm keenly interested in seeing if we can track down some of the visual cues that show up in the Sammael pic, and possibly elsewhere, since I doubt Gainax made all of them up. There are written descriptions, for example, of angels being covered in eyes, and if we could find some pictures of this, that would be awesome. Also, there is the possibility that the "Sachi face" has roots in tradition...

- Origins of "absolute terror field". You can find stuff about it on NGE sites, but we obviously can't use those are references, only as clues on where to look.


I'll do my best on these two. I allready looked through an old Psychology text book I found and couldn't find the term "absolute terror" in it. But I just skimmed through it, as I was in a hurry. Hopefully I can find more Image, or atleast some variation or an equivalent term, in which perhaps the term "A.T. Field" was derived from.

Originally posted on: 05.23.2004, 09:43 PM

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Well for the tree of life I have this site Ive known about for quite awhilw but..."The constellation of activities and resources described on these pages reflect the eclectic interests of the members of our fellowship and its core organization, Lodge Phoenix."

I don't know much about lodge phoenix so I'm not gonna trust it completeley yet. We have to be careful on what books as well cause books can be wrong too. Our only solid source will be the bible and the kabbala ect. People who write books about thios stuf express their views most of the time.

Heres the site polarissite.net

EDIT: The section on the tree of life says the following

"Click on any SPHERE or PATH of the Tree of Life to the left to display the Yetziratic Text, plus tables of correspondences."

Is this considered legit? Tree of life

Originally posted on: 05.24.2004, 06:29 AM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Washu-chan:

For our purposes, sources that approach the Kabbala from a scholarly perspective are what we are looking for. It's best to avoid the stuff where people are actually practicing it as a way of life or whatever, because those sources are just too, as Dr. Nick might put it, "batsh*t crazy". Plus that page you linked to doesn't include a bibliography or anything, and that's Bad. Image

Originally posted on: 05.24.2004, 08:12 AM

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Yeh I thought so. Just some crazy monkey people in some lodge in phoenix worshiping a giant replication of the tree of Life.

Oh and were my comments for the OP good? The only thing I wrote that should definatley be added is the references to the 7 eyes of god.

Originally posted on: 05.24.2004, 08:33 AM

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Postby HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:53 pm

Spazmeister, this post is mucho late, but I finally got the chance to look at those verses in Genesis a bit more closely...it still looks to me like Eve, not Lilith, was the one created with Adam on the sixth creative "day." I'll start with Genesis 1:27, which you already quoted, in which God first creates humans, male and female, on the sixth day. You seem to believe that the female mentioned there is Lilith, and that Eve was created sometime after the seventh day, but I think that a look at Genesis Chapter 2, which recounts the events of the sixth day in more detail, disproves this.

First off, there's verses 1 and 2:

Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made.

This seems to suggest that God didn't create anything else after the seventh day, and that Eve, along with everything else, would have had to come to be sometime beforehand. I don't know of any other scriptural material that would refute this, but if you have any I'll definitely check it out. Next I'll mention verses 4 and 5:

This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven. Now there was as yet no bush of the field found in the earth and no vegetation of the field was yet sporuting because Jehovah God had not made it rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground.

This makes it clear that Genesis chapter 2 is a retelling of the creation in chapter 1, and not a continuation of it. Verses 7 and 8 go on:

And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The above obviously refers to Adam, so at this point in the chapter the sixth "day" has arrived. The next bunch of verses go on to describe Eden, as well as God's command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge; the next point of interest as far as this topic goes comes in verse 18:

And Jehovah God went on to say: "It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a compliment of him." Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name.

Apparently at this point we're still on the sixth "day," since it's said that God was still in the midst of creating the animals at that time, which chapter one verse 24 specifies happened on the sixth day. Verses 20-23 finish it up:

So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for the man there was found no helper as a compliment of him. Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. And Jehovah proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man. Then the man said: "This is at last bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, because from man this one was taken."

None of the verses in the chapter suggest either that the creation of Eve took place anytime after the seventh day, nor that Adam had had another mate before that time, nor, as far as I know, does any other part of the Bible. As usual I used the New World Translation to quote the above, if you want to compare it to another translation.

And GPSpaz, I hope you're not taking this as an attempt to discount your credibility or anything like that, I just want to make sure that we're not barking up the wrong tree when it comes to sources: as far as any of my research has gone, I'm pretty convinced that Lilith is not in the Bible, and that her origins are elsewhere. As I said, though, if you have anything that could argue against that, by all means show it.

Originally posted on: 05.25.2004, 03:38 PM

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Postby Jinpun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:54 pm

HeWhoPostsStuff wrote:as far as any of my research has gone, I'm pretty convinced that Lilith is not in the Bible, and that her origins are elsewhere. As I said, though, if you have anything that could argue against that, by all means show it.


I believe that Lilith is only mentioned once, and depending on what Bible you have, the name "Lilith" might not appear.

She appears in Isaiah 34:14-5. It reads as (in my NRSV Bible):

Wildcats shall meet with hyenas,
goat-demons shall call to each other;
there too Lilith shall repose,
and find a place to rest.
There shall the owl nest
and lay and hatch and brood in its shadow


In other versions she is reffered to as a "screech owl", or "night creature", I believe. None the less, this doesn't pertain to yalls discussion, but this is the only place "Lilith" is mentioned or hinted at (to my knowledge). I believe you are correct HWPS about it being Eve and not Lilith who was created, before the seventh day.


Originally posted on: 05.25.2004, 04:11 PM

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:54 pm

Hey, Stuff Man, what's the deal with your Bible? It has this strange habit of calling the Big G "Jehovah God". Why not just "God" or just "Jehovah"? Forgive me, for an ignorant heathen am I...

I'll be reading up on Lilith eventually to see if there really is anything to this owl association... Probably nothing worth mentioning in the commentary, and I'm just making a big fuss out of nothing. Still, it would be a fun thing to throw at n00bs just to confuse them.

Tons of material I acquired from libraries to go through (I probably said that several times already), including three books on Kabbalah I stole from the institution that officially owns Stuff Man's body and soul, which look rather promising. But the fun will have to wait until later... (Technically, I'm at work right now, but there aren't too many patrons, you know how it is... :nervous laughterImage

Originally posted on: 05.25.2004, 06:14 PM

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:54 pm

Well just to be proper Ill post the seven Eyes references here:
(KJV):
Revelations.5:6: And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Zechariah.3:9: For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

God/bunch of crazy people, "The Bible", Long *** time ago...

Originally posted on: 05.25.2004, 06:30 PM


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