Commentary: Series OP

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

That kind of basic info would probably be better suited to the glossary section. We don't want the OP to be too crowded -- indeed, I'll be severely pruning the thing as the project advances. (Which will certainly happen as soon as I finish backing up my hard drive, reformat, reinstall ME, upgrade to XP, and get everything working once again...)

Originally posted on: 18-Jul-2004, 13:10 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

Yeh have we got the glossary up yet? Ill do some more translation to see exactly what kind of info that book has.

Originally posted on: 18-Jul-2004, 13:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

Washu-chan wrote:Yeh have we got the glossary up yet? Ill do some more translation to see exactly what kind of info that book has.

It's in the Appendix section, which you can access from the OP page if you like. Terribly incomplete, I should warn you.

Any translations are welcome. (BTW, is this the book that has two additional angels in it?) Just don't forget I need that episode #02 script done... Image

Originally posted on: 18-Jul-2004, 13:56 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

I don't think so but it has the fugly-type equipment. And for quotes did yu want american quotation or Japanese?

Originally posted on: 18-Jul-2004, 14:54 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

Washu-chan wrote:And for quotes did yu want american quotation or Japanese?

Both, of course. Image

[BTW, link to appendix here so you can see how deliciously crappy it is.]

:continues backing up her extensive collection of crap:

Originally posted on: 18-Jul-2004, 15:57 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

Oh. What I meant was do you want me to use american style quotation marks (") or Japanese style (300;301; ). The little box ones.

Originally posted on: 19-Jul-2004, 02:09 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:48 am

Washu-chan wrote:Oh. What I meant was do you want me to use american style quotation marks (") or Japanese style (300;301; ). The little box ones.

If you're typing up something in Japanese characters, use whatever the original source uses.

Originally posted on: 19-Jul-2004, 12:31 GMT

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Postby Keisuke-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 am

oh ok I get it now.

Originally posted on: 19-Jul-2004, 12:47 GMT

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Postby Sharp-kun [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 am

From someone I was discussing the prject with:

Spanky the Dolphin wrote:For shot 017, the commentary goes with the idea that EVA-01's mouth is welded shut, and that the bits are pieces of metal flying off. According to the official Newtype 100% Collection Eva artbook page 101, EVA-01's mouth is actually bolted shut with a horizontal peg at the front teeth, and the pieces flying out is the destroyed bolt.



Originally posted on: 27-Jul-2004, 18:52 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 am

Ah, interesting bit of info... I'll have to translate the stuff on the Evas in Newtype 100% sometime (unless Spanky wants to share a translation that's already been done...). Makes me wonder, though... If they bother bolting the Evas' mouths shut, why don't they just go the safer route and not give them a separate jaw piece to begin with?

And make sure to warn your friend that the OP page needs a bit of work. Image

Originally posted on: 28-Jul-2004, 01:10 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 am

078: The context in which this image is shown in ep 20 makes it seem that it is meant to represent a photograph - which of course represents something captured of the past.

Originally posted on: 11-Oct-2004, 08:50 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 am

Just because this stuff is way too cool to keep to myself, here's the OP "Cut Commentary" from "Eva tomo no kai". A lot of this stuff is of the relatively useless "this picture/idea appears in this episode" nature (hardcore fans know all of that already!), but some of the tidbits are actually quite interesting. The stuff in brackets are my own comments, however useless they might be.


Cut 1: According to the storyboards, the light spreading out into the darkness is the beginning of the universe. The graphical figure that appears in the red universe is like a cherub. In traditional Catholic belief, cherubim are the second-to-highest ranking choir of angel. In Biblical tradition, when the cherubim are spread throughout the Garden of Eden, it becomes their duty to prevent Adam and Eve from approaching the Tree of Life.
Cut 2: According to storyboards, the blue screen is “the primeval sea” or “the soup of life”. The graphical figure is a variation upon the Sephirotic Tree of Life, the inverted tree. In episode 26' (“Magokoro o, kimi ni”), EVA-01 was unified with the Spear of Longinus and took on a shape like an inverted tree. The same image of the flickering light appeared in episode #16 (“Shi ni itaru, soshite”) and episode #20 (“Kokoro no katachi, hito no katachi”). Both times, it was just before Shinji's return to the real world from the entry plug (= the inner universe). Perhaps it is the image seen by an embryo inside its mother's womb of the light coming in from the outside world?
Cut 4: The image that appears here is the Sephirotic Tree. The Sephirot graphically represented the entity of a three-dimensional image of the inner world [whatever that means], used by symbolic Kabbalistic illustrations. In this show, however, they were often projected onto the floor and ceiling of Gendo's office. [Floor? I beg your pardon?] In episode #26', they were produced in the sky by EVA-01 and the Eva Series.
Cut 17: In the final stage of episode #26', 12 wings are sprouted by EVA-01. The fallen angel Lucifer is said to possess 12 wings. ["Lucifer" is the wrong name for him, BTW; I'll include this tidbit in an update to the OP. Considering they mention this here, it's odd that they don't bring up "Lucifer" in Cut 1, since that entity clearly has twelve wings.]
Cut 21, 23: The images of EVA-01, the telephone pole, etc., covered in blood appeared in episode #16, “Mei no sentaku o”, in the scene where EVA-01 defeats EVA-03. [Funny, I don't remember seeing them.]
Cut 29: ABSOLUTE TERROR FIELD has the same meaning as zettai kyoufu ryouiki (absolute terror field), or A.T. Field. [This entry becomes irrelevent in English; it's just telling Japanese people what ATF literally means.]
Cut 30: This boy is Kaworu Nagisa, who appeared in episode #24, “Saigo no SHIsha”.
Cut 31: Could the fact that Rei is shown in the sequence with the 3rd Angel, EVA-01, the Angel's core, A.T. Field, and Kaworu be a hint that Rei, too, can be said to be an entity close to the Angels?
Cut 44: The crest of Seele appeared in episode #20 of the show.
Cut 48: Gendo in his younger days appeared in episode #21, “Nerv, tanjou”.
Cut 49: Embryonic Adam appeared for the first time in episode #08, “Asuka, rainichi”. In the video and LD edition of episode #24, it was fused to Gendo's palm.
Cut 51: This is the remodeled EVA-00' kai (= upgraded), which first appeared in episode #11.
Cut 67B: Misato's pendant appears before the text “SECOND IMPACT”. The connection between her pendant and Second Impact became clear in episode #12, “Kiseki no kachi wa”.
Cut 69: The giant of light is Adam, who appeared in Antarctica at the time of Second Impact. It appeared in the show at the beginning of episode #12.
Cut 70: The image of Antarctica at the time of Second Impact appeared in episode #12. The image exactly the same as this cut from the OP appeared in episode #21.
Cut 71: Could this be Rei from several years back? This image doesn't appear in the actual show. It may be hinting at how Rei was brought up in an experimental facility-like locale.
Cut 72: Young Yui appeared in episode #21.
Cut 76: The analysis data on the material composing the Angels' bodies. It appeared in episode #04, “Rei, kokoro no mukou ni”. [But this is Gaghiel, not Shamshel!]
Cut 77B: Misato, Kaji, and Ritsuko in their younger days also appeared in episode #21.
Cut 84: The friendly expression of the worry-free Shinji appeared at the end of the final episode, “Sekai no chuushin de AI o yonda kemono”. At the time of the TV broadcast, this Shinji from the OP was also used for the final episode's end card (an image used to announce the program's conclusion). The same expression was used by episode #26', “Magokoro o, kimi ni”, in the scene from the middle stage presenting Shinji's conflicts. [I can't remember; WHERE in EoE was this?]
Cut 85: These mysterious characters appeared in the video & LD version of episode #23, “Namida”. In the scene where Ritsuko spoke of the connection between God and Eva, forms are superimposed over the Reis in the tank, and this image is inserted. It is a part of the “Secret” Dead Sea Scrolls. [Hah-hah! Reichu's Blatant Theorization triumphs!]


Originally posted on: 18-Oct-2004, 21:21 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

Just wanted to say that this "new' stuff is great; too bad we didn't have this available from the beginning. I'll have to revisit this thread, when i have time, to take all this into account...

Originally posted on: 19-Oct-2004, 17:10 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Just wanted to say that this "new' stuff is great; too bad we didn't have this available from the beginning. I'll have to revisit this thread, when i have time, to take all this into account...

Gawd, you're telling me! It would probably be to our benefit to get all of these "cut commentaries" translated. I can figure out the context for most of the statements quite easily (being familiar with what they're talking about, and all), so translations come more easily than they do for various other things ([cough]Sore o nasumono[/cough]). Ahhh, Japanese is a wonderful thing when it is n00b-friendly.

I updated my previous post with the rest of the "cut commentary". While I'm at it, here's some crap I typed up a couple of nights ago. Being as it contains Blatant Theorization, feel free to rip it apart:

001b: The mysterious figure that appears is definitely worth taking note of. "Eva tomo no kai" has this to say about it:

The graphical figure that appears in the red universe is like a cherub. In traditional Catholic belief, cherubim are the second-to-highest ranking choir of angel. In Biblical tradition, when the cherubim are spread throughout the Garden of Eden, it becomes their duty to prevent Adam and Eve from approaching the Tree of Life.

As far as I can tell, the actual visual resemblance between cherubim and this figure is tenuous, at best. Multiple accounts describe them as being "many-eyed", which works with the wings here. In the Book of Ezekiel (10:14), they are also described as having four faces, the fourth being that of eagle. While this figure appears only to have one, it could be construed as being vaguely eagle-like. I'm personally of the opinion that it's more like an owl's, being disc-shaped with forward-facing eyes.

The twelve wings alternatively identify this as the infamous fallen angel Sammael (or Samael) -- also known as Satan (and often, incorrectly, as "Lucifer", due to a misreading of Isaiah 14:12). Sammael is usually considered a seraph, a type of angel that's supposed to have three pairs of wings. But it's the extra six that give Sammael away: According to The Legends of the Jews, he was "the greatest of the angels in heaven, with twelve wings, instead of six like all the others."

As if things weren't convoluted enough, Sammael is sometimes identified with the cherubim; in Parente's The Angels, he is called "the supreme ruler of the order of cherubim". Interestingly, St. Thomas Aquinas, in Summa Theologica, argues that Sammael, as "the first angel who sinned", must be a cherub, because "cherubim is [sic] derived from knowledge, which is compatible with mortal sin; but seraphim is [sic] derived from the heat of charity, which is incompatible with mortal sin".

What does a cherubim, Sammael, or both have to do with NGE? The cherubim's task of guarding the Tree of Life from the first humans fits, in a sense, with NGE's Angels' role as being obstacles to humanity's evolution into a god-like being, which is -- both symbolically and literally -- achieved in the series via various incarnations of the Tree of Life. The juxtaposition of cherub-Sammael with the "inverted tree" in the next cut seems to support this kind of association. As for why Sammael is referenced here, and elsewhere in NGE, by virtue of his twelve wings... I'm out of ideas at the moment.

And I was thinking of tweaking the comments following the Tree of Life business about NGE's unusual relationship with religion, sticking in something Hexon.Arq said in the #02 thread:

Reichu: Before we are inundated with any more religious symbols... I should point out that one of the greatest misconceptions people have about NGE is that the religious content has any actual meaning, at least as far as a religious agenda on the part of the creators goes.

MDWigs: I really dislike this misconception. When asked at Otakon 2001 to explain the symbolism of the cross in NGE, Tsurumaki (assistant director of NGE and director of the "Air" part of EoE) replied:

There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. Because Christianity is an uncommon religion in Japan we thought it would be mysterious. None of the staff who worked on Eva are Christians. There is no actual Christian meaning to the show; we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool. If we had known the show would get distributed in the US and Europe we might have rethought that choice.

Also, the following was posted by bochan_bird on the Eva ML:

According to a very frank and open 40-minute interview by Anno on the NHK TV program "Top Runner" (www.nhk.org.jp/tr/) about a week or so ago, all religious and philosophical references, while providing a coherent setting for the story, were used for the specific purpose of looking cool and to make Anno & company appear intelligent.

Anno himself called it "pedantry" (the display/parading of one's intelligence), and this is backed up by comments by Tsurumaki and other staff as well. So get over the religious inferences, because THERE IS NO DEEPER MEANING!!!


Hexon.Arq: I'll be perfectly honest and say that I am one of those people who believe that the lack of substance in the religious symbolism is part truth, part blatant falsehood. Things like cross-explosions and esoteric names may fit the description of frivolous window dressing, but other occurrences simply make too much sense to be dumb luck.

Reichu: Pedantry aside, I think that the religious symbolism used in NGE should be viewed within the context of the show itself and how it oftentimes reinforces some of the themes and ideas being presented. Some of the references are empty and just there to "look cool", but others do, like Hexon.Arq says, have more "substance" to them -- just not in an actual religious context.

I'm not sure how well that covers all the bases, though.

Originally posted on: 19-Oct-2004, 22:41 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

Well, now that I have all of the storyboard books, I can finally give the OP another run-over and add some tasty new morsels. Whenever I have the opportunity, anyway, which certainly won't be this weekend. I did at least want to mention something I only noticed tonight and couldn't possibly keep to myself.

The 7-eyed logo we're all familiar with is not referred to as Seele's. Rather, it is called the mark of Essene. For those who don't know (and I sure didn't), here's a little Googling I turned up:

The Essene brotherhood had its inception at the time of Melchizedek, the great spiritual master who lived on this planet around 1973 B. C. and was the incarnation of Jesus. ... The development of the Essene brotherhood over the next two thousand years is embodied in the development of the Jewish religion. The Essenes were a Jewish sect representing an esoteric aspect of Judaism, or Jewish mysticism. The Jewish mystics studied the Kabbalah, which taught belief in reincarnation, astrology, channeling, prophecy, soul travel, psychic development, and angels, and which organized itself around the Tree of Life.

[Source]

HmMM... Does any of that sound familiar? Apparently, these Essenes are also often credited as the creators of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This, to me, is fascinating... It's providing something at least Mr. Tines, I know, has wanted -- a way to tie Seele in with a real-life occult group. Episodes had been worked on up to #08, at least, before the OP sequence was done. So, at this time, there was no Seele -- only Essene. It's not much of a concern, as we are dealing only with the "Committee" at first -- "Seele" isn't even mentioned until the end of the first half of #14.

But, ah, just interested to see what ya'lll make of this. I seriously need to go to bed. I took my "drunk sleeping pills".

Originally posted on: 02-Apr-2005, 07:09 GMT

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Postby Magami No ER [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

Yeah, that does seem to be a good basis for Seele...

Originally posted on: 02-Apr-2005, 07:15 GMT

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Postby Treize X [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

It is where the symbol originated from, along with the Scrolls, as best I remember. I might have to do some more research to reconfirm it, but it sounds right.

Originally posted on: 02-Apr-2005, 12:01 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

After digging up some crap on the Evas' oni origins, I filled out C-025 with some badly-needed comments on the Evangelion design (and a denouncement of the "Barons of Hell" rubbish). Does anyone care? Probably not. Image

Originally posted on: 09-Apr-2005, 03:06 GMT

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Postby MagicianCamille [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

This may sound like the Camille of yesteryear, but the fact that this thread exists saddens me.

Originally posted on: 09-Apr-2005, 03:22 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:50 am

MagicianCamille wrote:This may sound like the Camille of yesteryear, but the fact that this thread exists saddens me.

Um... why?

Originally posted on: 09-Apr-2005, 03:25 GMT


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