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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:36 pm

ITT, we talk about Character Pages in general.

Two thoughts at the moment.

- The convention (wherever it came from) of putting "(Japanese)" after the seiyuu name is to be terminated promptly.

- Having a separate "Tabris" article is pointless. FYUUuuu-JON! HA'!
Last edited by Reichu on Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:38 pm

Reichu wrote:- The convention (wherever it came from) of putting "(Japanese)" after the seiyuu name is to be terminated promptly.

I'll create a seperate variable in the template for the english dub actor name. I had been planning to do this for a while. Should I put in more (optonal) fields while I'm at it?

Reichu wrote:- Having a separate "Tabris" article is pointless. FYUUuuu-JON! HA'!

But which infobox will we use then?!

Redirect? But which page redirects to which? What about the Lilith page? Or Rei I-II-II. Given that the name represent different concepts which it is important to give their own page to, I recommend against a straight redirect in these cases. Rather, each page should try to stay within its own sphere as it were. In other words, the Kaworu page should discuss Kaworu the character, mentioning that he is an angel and linking to the Tabris page. The Tabris page should link to the Kaworu page, but briefly discuss "Angel" type information, like abilities, etc, which would be out of place on the Kaworu character page.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:43 pm

But, like, Kaworu and Tabris are the exact same thing.

Rei 1, 2, 3 pages would be offshoots of Rei Ayanami, so I don't see why those are relevant to the discussion. If you're going to bring up "Lilith" you might as well do the same for "Adam".

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:44 am

Reichu wrote:But, like, Kaworu and Tabris are the exact same thing.

This is another of those Batman/Bruce Wayne dichotomies. Basically, we jus need a very small angel page with basic Tabris information, an infobox, and a link to Kaworu's page.
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Postby V » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:54 am

That's what I was shooting for: a short "Tabris" page basically going "These are Kaworu/Tabris' Angelic powers and abilities."

For more information on Kaworu, go to "[[Kaworu Nagisa]]"

By all means he's one entity; yeah the "Bruce Wayne/Batman" analogy fits this well.

It wouldn't be a big problem if you have your heart set on making it one page, I just wouldn't prefer it.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:12 am

Upon further consideration, I don't think I care. :tongue:

At long last, we have one character page that isn't gratuitously incomplete: Dr. Katsuragi, of all people. Ah, that felt nice (though V abetted in this particular crime)...

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Postby Dr. Nick » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:56 am

Reichu wrote:At long last, we have one character page that isn't gratuitously incomplete: Dr. Katsuragi, of all people. Ah, that felt nice (though V abetted in this particular crime)...


A lingering shot of a tattered, blood-stained glove appears in the classified footage shown at the beginning of Episode 21' and DEATH. This is, in fact, the missing part of Dr. Katsuragi's left-hand glove.


Info from script notes, I presume? Anyhow, source needs to be mentioned.

Dr. Katsuragi seems to briefly stare at his left hand the moment before he collapses. Combined with the bloody glove and the close-up of his lacerated hand, this would make three instances of attention being drawn to that particular hand.


While these are direct observations, they are irrelevant outside the context of your Katsuragi pet theory. And that's one context that will be sealed to Tier 2 of T&A (assuming that's the lowest we can get - I assume the "Controversy Ghetto" idea got scrapped?). Please delete.

While both the show and all official sources are silent on the issue, it has been suggested that the donor was none other than Dr. Katsuragi himself: in part because he is the "better-qualified" of the two available cast members, but more specifically because the situation would parallel Yui Ikari's own Contact Experiment in many ways. See: Theory & Analysis: Kaworu's Origins.


Not encyclopedic material (Besides, your argumentation already contains a logical fallacy: nothing requires the donor to be a named cast member). I don't know if these are placeholder notes, but they need to go, for we can't be sure that some lost soul isn't using the page as an information source while we're still working on the T&A pages.

Looking good otherwise.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:40 am

The moment I saw the good doctor's name on the Character Inforbox, I knew this day would come.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:45 am

Dr. Nick wrote:Not encyclopedic material (Besides, your argumentation already contains a logical fallacy: nothing requires the donor to be a named cast member). I don't know if these are placeholder notes, but they need to go, for we can't be sure that some lost soul isn't using the page as an information source while we're still working on the T&A pages.



I agree. We already do have a number of random nobodies out there- the souls in the Harpies and Eva-03 (Toji's mother maybe, but no confirmation like the others), the guy who shot Kaji, most of Seele, the Katsuragi expedition scientists, intelligence agents, the workers who somehow didn't spill the beans on the Evangelions...the list goes on and on. Not to mention an innumerable number of nobodies involved in creating the foreign Evas, Harpies and Kaworu clones, and other potential Eva pilots.

Not to mention an obvious problem with the idea that Katsuragi created Kaworu- Misato was more than old enough to remember her father's face when 2I happened, and probably did have photos of him somewhere (Unlike Gendo, who had Rei to hide). Shinji was too little to remember his mother, but going on a bunch of intuitive connections and mental trips managed to link Rei to his mother. Shouldn't Misato have picked up the Kaworu-Katsuragi connection at once, and guess what he was after knowing the truth about Rei?

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Postby Reichu » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:39 am

Dr. Nick wrote:Info from script notes, I presume?

No, from visual match-up. (Relevant thread is at EMF, oh shi--) I guess I can soften the statement... I'll provide pics sooner or later.

While these are direct observations, they are irrelevant outside the context of your Katsuragi pet theory.

Well, that seems awfully cynical of you. :tongue:

I can get rid of it for now, but IMO the "hand-staring" bit definitely warrants inclusion. It's a detail most people probably haven't noticed, and it exists as part of a larger motif within NGE.

Besides, your argumentation already contains a logical fallacy: nothing requires the donor to be a named cast member).

Yeah, it was late and that came out the wrong way.

Looking good otherwise.

Who'da thunk?

UrsusArctos wrote:Not to mention an obvious problem with the idea that Katsuragi created Kaworu <snip>

"Obvious", but the whole situation is so sticky and vague I wouldn't consider this adequate to rule out the proposal.

The "Dr. K as donor" suggestion is inherently straightforward enough that it doesn't warrant the special privilege of being banished to 2nd-tier T&A, in any case. But that's neither here nor there.

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Postby Dr. Nick » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:10 pm

Reichu wrote:No, from visual match-up. (Relevant thread is at EMF, oh shi--) I guess I can soften the statement... I'll provide pics sooner or later.


In that case, to T&A it goes. Visual match-ups alone are not evidence of anything.

Well, that seems awfully cynical of you. :tongue:


They are irrelevant; there is no limit to how many similar observations can be made. "Incidentally, this is one of the few scenes in the entire series where we see people wearing winter clothes with fuzzy collars"; "Notice the rare occurrence of a green wall in the background"; "Lookie, a black car! Who knows, it might belong to Nerv security goons, they're known to drive black cars. And the context here is kinda sinister, too."

I can get rid of it for now, but IMO the "hand-staring" bit definitely warrants inclusion.


Oh, I agree. A nice visual presentation with a pseudointellectual follow-up discussion is what we want. I'd imagine Shin-seiki has plenty of things to contribute regarding the whole hand symbolism.

The "Dr. K as donor" suggestion is inherently straightforward enough that it doesn't warrant the special privilege of being banished to 2nd-tier T&A, in any case.


Well, I'm not adamant about the tiers, since they're still in a conceptual stage. But I can only stomach super-controversial theories in dialogue format (so as to eradicate any pretensions of an authoritative voice) and carefully segregated from the site's reliable contents. This is not some anti-Reichu measure, it applies to everybody, including theories I've put forward. For example, I'm rather uncomfortable with the way the LCL article makes mention of the "phase shift" mess, even though its wording is quite neutral.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:14 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:For example, I'm rather uncomfortable with the way the LCL article makes mention of the "phase shift" mess, even though its wording is quite neutral.

I believe it is an actual physics term, but I'm danmed if I can remember where I heard it. I was trying to be succinct.

Phase transition refers to the changing from a liquid to a gas, gas to liquid, liquid to solid, etc. Phase shift refers to the changing of properties without a phase transition, I think. I'm going to try and see if I can find the correct term.

Edit:
Turns out that "State" refers to the previously mentioned "phase transition", where material changes from one state of matter "solid/liquid/gas" to another. "Phase transitions" refer in a general sense to the types of change LCL goes through. Should I word it this way?
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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:01 am

Dr. Nick wrote:In that case, to T&A it goes. Visual match-ups alone are not evidence of anything.

The context is somewhat different...* It's the palm side of a left-hand glove and ripped from what you can see of the opposite side; the end of the thumb is missing. Dr. K is missing the entirety of the palm section; the end of the thumb is missing. It doesn't exactly require a manifestation of Fuzzy Logic to make a connection; and a T&A page about the Bloody Glove seems a wee bit like overkill.

Incidentally, OMF went into "yes, this is why we must make a Wiki!" mode after I posted the observation about the glove(s). If memory serves.

A nice visual presentation with a pseudointellectual follow-up discussion is what we want. I'd imagine Shin-seiki has plenty of things to contribute regarding the whole hand symbolism.

Considering the sparcity of Dr. K's appearance, I do think the observation deserves to be in the Notes section.

But I can only stomach super-controversial theories in dialogue format <snip>

Is it actually that controversial on a fundamental level? (I'm not talking about the super-analysis I was peddling a while back.) "Who was Kaworu created from?" is a pretty natural question, and when it comes down to it there are only two feasible options. For that reason, having a link to a T&A page from Dr. K's seems appropriate; it would serve to redirect, after all.

* Although, the Pen Pen/Keel thing is hilariously bizarre enough to warrant mention somewhere.

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Postby Dr. Nick » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:24 am

Reichu wrote:It doesn't exactly require a manifestation of Fuzzy Logic to make a connection;


Establish a proper link between the two and we'll talk.

and a T&A page about the Bloody Glove seems a wee bit like overkill.


It's no longer a part of your pet theory? Because if it is, I will consider it advertising. If not, feel free to put it back in.
Considering the sparcity of Dr. K's appearance, I do think the observation deserves to be in the Notes section.


Your reason is "sparcity"? Even more reason for me to start making notes about winter clothes, Christmas and fire extinguishers. In other words, deleted.

Is it actually that controversial on a fundamental level?


The question itself isn't. Any attempts to claim that the donor was someone else than some anonymous person are.

and when it comes down to it there are only two feasible options.


There's only one feasible option: anonymous. Any other options require extraordinary proof.

For that reason, having a link to a T&A page from Dr. K's seems appropriate; it would serve to redirect, after all.


Agreed.

Although, the Pen Pen/Keel thing is hilariously bizarre enough to warrant mention somewhere.


But you wouldn't put it on an encyclopedic page, I assume?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:35 am

Dr. Nick wrote:
Establish a proper link between the two and we'll talk.

Shinji: Father who concentrated on work and abandoned his family. Mother's soul was sucked into an Eva, where Rei was born out of the combination of Yui's DNA and Lilith's soul.

Misato: Father who concentrated on work and abandoned his family. Father's soul was sucked into Adam, where Kaworu was born out of the combination of Dr. Kat's DNA and Adam's soul.

Also, I like Reichu's point about how if it has to be someone mentioned in the series, then Dr. K is the only candidate. Then there's the whole hand motif thing and just exactly what is wrong with his hand in those images. If you want tangible proof, what are you doing mixed up with NGE?! ;)
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Postby Dr. Nick » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:59 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Shinji: Father who concentrated on work and abandoned his family. Mother's soul was sucked into an Eva, where Rei was born out of the combination of Yui's DNA and Lilith's soul.

Misato: Father who concentrated on work and abandoned his family. Father's soul was sucked into Adam, where Kaworu was born out of the combination of Dr. Kat's DNA and Adam's soul.


Circular logic:
1. You state, without providing ANY evidence that "Father's soul was sucked into Adam, where Kaworu was born out of the combination of Dr. Kat's DNA and Adam's soul."
2. You use that as proof to link Misato and Shinji together. However, I asked Reichu to provide a proper link between the torn glove and Dr. Katsuragi.

Also, I like Reichu's point about how if it has to be someone mentioned in the series, then Dr. K is the only candidate.


Logical fallacy. Nothing requires the donor to be a named cast member.

If you want tangible proof, what are you doing mixed up with NGE?! ;)


If you don't care about facts, why are you writing encyclopedic articles?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:36 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Misato: Father who concentrated on work and abandoned his family. Father's soul was sucked into Adam, where Kaworu was born out of the combination of Dr. Kat's DNA and Adam's soul.

That's not exactly how it's supposed to go... (No soul-sucking, for one thing. Injection into a soulless Eva this is not.)

just exactly what is wrong with his hand in those images.

It's lacerated for presumably the same reason that a profuse amount of blood is soaking through his parka.

It's no longer a part of your pet theory? Because if it is, I will consider it advertising. If not, feel free to put it back in.

:facepalm:

Last time it came up was in the context of the timing of Second Impact events.

There's only one feasible option: anonymous. Any other options require extraordinary proof.

The second option is for those who want to consider the possibility that it might be someone in the show (in which case all but one can be eliminated). I want the link to a T&A page to stay (with the original context intact, otherwise there isn't much point...); you don't; I would like to get other opinions on the matter.

But you wouldn't put it on an encyclopedic page, I assume?

In the context of being an odd bit of trivia, sure it can go somewhere.

If you don't care about facts, why are you writing encyclopedic articles?

If we were consistently mentioning "facts", there would never be any need for "softener" words.

In any case, further Dr. K discussion should go onto his Talk page.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:49 am

Reichu wrote:That's not exactly how it's supposed to go... (No soul-sucking, for one thing. Injection into a soulless Eva this is not.)
CEs are tricky things... Who's to say exactly what happened when "they" touched Adam? Yui was absorbed fully into Sho, Kyoko halfway escaped Ni, then the whole Lilith/Zero trick... So how are we to know exactly what went down with the Adam/somebody CE?

Dr. Nick wrote:
Circular logic:
1. You state, without providing ANY evidence that "Father's soul was sucked into Adam, where Kaworu was born out of the combination of Dr. Kat's DNA and Adam's soul."
2. You use that as proof to link Misato and Shinji together. However, I asked Reichu to provide a proper link between the torn glove and Dr. Katsuragi.
1. Is the theory.
2. Is the link. Not the link you were looking for, but just my take on it.

Dr. Nick wrote:Nothing requires the donor to be a named cast member.
Surely not. But it would be rather boring if it wasn't. Remember, there's still no concrete proof that Lilith's soul is within Zero: only some suspect evidence and logical speculation regarding it.

Dr. Nick wrote:
If you don't care about facts, why are you writing encyclopedic articles?
Because some things in NGE can be explained in mostly concrete terms. The rest is why the T&A pages exist (or will exist).
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:52 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:CEs are tricky things... Who's to say exactly what happened when "they" touched Adam? Yui was absorbed fully into Sho, Kyoko halfway escaped Ni, then the whole Lilith/Zero trick... So how are we to know exactly what went down with the Adam/somebody CE?

Probably something for CE-Talk.

Because some things in NGE can be explained in mostly concrete terms. The rest is why the T&A pages exist (or will exist).

The segregation might be tricky in places -- i.e., when an item is so small it doesn't deserve a T&A page to itself. That matter probably belongs in the proper thread.

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Postby Dr. Nick » Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:55 am

Reichu wrote:Last time it came up was in the context of the timing of Second Impact events.


I have no idea when the "last time it came up" even was; I don't follow you around, reading every forum post you make on EMF, iichan's Gainax board and whatever else there might be. All I know is that you've used the torn glove argument to support the "Dr. Katsuragi as a donor" argument, and that's why seeing it on the encyclopedia first struck me as suspicious. But I'm going to assume good faith now, seeing how your new wording contains an independent rationale for its inclusion. Sorry for the hasty deletion.

I want the link to a T&A page to stay (with the original context intact, otherwise there isn't much point...), unless others object to it.


How come "there isn't much point"? Anyhow, I vehemently object your "original context", considering it highly controversial and wholly non-encyclopedic. I agree that V, being the Minionister of the Wiki, should cast the final judgement on this issue.

In the context of being an odd bit of trivia, sure it can go somewhere.


But on an encyclopedic page? Despite the fact that I could - that anyone could - produce endless amounts of such vague visual match-ups?

If we were consistently mentioning "facts", there would never be any need for "softener" words.


There is a well-known difference between facts, harmless everyday speculation, and speculation that leads to shitstorms and, for what I've heard, Nazis.

EDIT:

OMF wrote:I believe it is an actual physics term, but I'm danmed if I can remember where I heard it. I was trying to be succinct.

Phase transition refers to the changing from a liquid to a gas, gas to liquid, liquid to solid, etc. Phase shift refers to the changing of properties without a phase transition, I think. I'm going to try and see if I can find the correct term.


I mean, I am uncomfortable with the assumed phenomenon of LCL undergoing some kind of change being mentioned at all in the encyclopedia.
Last edited by Dr. Nick on Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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