Since kickstarting the work on the broad topic of influences, references & homages has been entrusted to me by Reichu, and because the few stubs I created for practice are beginning to annoy V, I guess now is a good time to do some planning. Or actually, it isn't good time for me because I'm going to be busy with work all the way till the end of the month, but I hope posting these semi-random notes might get the ball rolling.
First of all, at the moment I'm only concentrating on things that influenced Evangelion and things that are referenced to in Evangelion. NGE-references in other works will come later, and I very much doubt there's any encyclopedic content to be gleaned from that area, unless you want articles like "Unlimited Gendo Works".
Now, when I think of the question "what influenced Evangelion", the following sorts of things come to my mind:
(Am I missing anything?)
- Older works by Gainax: Gunbuster, Nadia, Otaku no Video
- Other anime: Ideon, Macross... (uh, are there any other important ones?)
- Other scifi: 2001 Space Odyssey, Andromeda Strain, Blue Christmas, Ellison, Cordwainer Smith, Star Trek; some general babble about technological singularities in scifi-literature could also go here.
- Real-life science: psychology/freudian jargon, quantum mechanics (in all likelyhood, both need their own sub-pages); if we include pseudoscience, perhaps a brief mention about the "Ancient Astronauts" hypothesis. "How real-life science is abused in Evangelion" is probably more a geeky-guide-worthy topic.
And then there are somewhat related things such as
- Character name origins and naval references (We can simply move the old page over to Mediawiki, I presume.)
- Random stuff (Is there anything "random"? Beer and coffee factoids and other "product placement"? Or would a "geeky guide" be more suitable for those?)
Wiki newbie as I am, I ask you, ladies and gentlemen, how should we start organizing this wealth of fanboy information? Are new categories needed? Will there be any "main page" for the whole topic, with subpages fanning out from it, and if yes, what will be its official name?
As for the screenshots I've promised to provide, it will take a while with those. Gunbuster I do own on DVD, Macross is on my things-to-buy list and Andromeda Strain is on order. Once I'm in a suitably bored mood, maybe we'll see some progress there.
Influences, references, homages
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Re: Influences, references, homages
Dr. Nick wrote:- Other anime: Ideon, Macross... (uh, are there any other important ones?)
Maybe MS Gundam, but I don't have a citation for that.
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Re: Influences, references, homages
There isn't a mech anime that wasn't influenced by MS Gundam I don't imagine.Ornette wrote:Maybe MS Gundam, but I don't have a citation for that.
Interesting that I read in an interview with Mamoru Oshii where he mentioned Anno admitting that he was "a copy of a copy" (this was regarding the overused mecha ideas); I wondered what the copy was, and what the original would be that he was referring to?
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^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James
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As I see it this type of information has two possible formats on the wiki.
The first is a brief mention in an episode, or whichever appropriate page, as a form of trivia. We could perhaps organise a collection of such trivia, but I think they're better left as nuggets to be discovered during casual browsing. Very brief mentions like "This scene is a tribute/ripoff of a scene in X" or "This is a term/name/image/idea from Y" would fit in this category.
The second type of information is the type that cannot possibly fit in a brief blurb and deserves its own page. The Quantum Mechanics stuff is a prime example which will need its own page, a page which would be linked to in the form of a mention at the appropriate places. Shinji as a male Nadia is also something that would need a short page, owing to the required imagery.
Basically the litmus test between the two should be this: If it's the type of thing that would need a discussion thread, it's type two. Offhand comments that could be surmised completely in a short post are type one.
The only remaining issue would be Dr. Nicks old worry about potential conflict between the Wiki and commentary sections. In other words, in which section do such things go. Personally, I think the content should exist in both places, in potentially two different formats/styles. A wiki page that editors are free to expand or improve as they see fit at any time, and a commentary page which has the finalized commentary version "as Reichu envisioned it" if you will.
Which isn't to say that the commentary can't just link straight back to wiki pages during the discussion. It's just that the commentary shouldn't be afraid to create it's own custom version of any topic regardless if a wiki page exists or not.
The only trouble here is(edit: me not previewing posts)
The first is a brief mention in an episode, or whichever appropriate page, as a form of trivia. We could perhaps organise a collection of such trivia, but I think they're better left as nuggets to be discovered during casual browsing. Very brief mentions like "This scene is a tribute/ripoff of a scene in X" or "This is a term/name/image/idea from Y" would fit in this category.
The second type of information is the type that cannot possibly fit in a brief blurb and deserves its own page. The Quantum Mechanics stuff is a prime example which will need its own page, a page which would be linked to in the form of a mention at the appropriate places. Shinji as a male Nadia is also something that would need a short page, owing to the required imagery.
Basically the litmus test between the two should be this: If it's the type of thing that would need a discussion thread, it's type two. Offhand comments that could be surmised completely in a short post are type one.
The only remaining issue would be Dr. Nicks old worry about potential conflict between the Wiki and commentary sections. In other words, in which section do such things go. Personally, I think the content should exist in both places, in potentially two different formats/styles. A wiki page that editors are free to expand or improve as they see fit at any time, and a commentary page which has the finalized commentary version "as Reichu envisioned it" if you will.
Which isn't to say that the commentary can't just link straight back to wiki pages during the discussion. It's just that the commentary shouldn't be afraid to create it's own custom version of any topic regardless if a wiki page exists or not.
The only trouble here is(edit: me not previewing posts)
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May The Maths Be With You.
May The Maths Be With You.
I've finished screencapping The Andromeda Strain and I'm ready to pass this torch to UrsusArctos. Essentially, what needs to be done now is to combine the current Episode 13 notes with what I started on the "Tributes" page, provide sauce, do away with the temporary intro there and make the entry a coherent whole. Also, feel very free to improve and flesh out my scene descriptions and whatever.
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A few American cartoons need to be in there: Invader Zim, of course, and the Eva-wannabe robot (truly a robot) from the "Legends" episode of Justice League.
The name origins for the human characters might be better served as a trivia note on their respective pages, and then gathered together on one part of the wiki. Am I saying this because I can't decide which format would be better? Yes.
The same thing with the Angels whose appearances contain Nadia references (Rameil, the "eyes" on Matarael)
The name origins for the human characters might be better served as a trivia note on their respective pages, and then gathered together on one part of the wiki. Am I saying this because I can't decide which format would be better? Yes.
The same thing with the Angels whose appearances contain Nadia references (Rameil, the "eyes" on Matarael)"No live organism can continue to exist sanely within conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
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LiveJournal and Fan Fiction
Since the Tributes to NGE page has amassed a nice amount of content, we need to start thinking how to further sort the material. Also, some guidelines for contributions need to be set.
- First things first: V, we need those referencing guidelines.
- Another (actually site-wide) matter of formatting: how do we mention the names of other creative works (books, anime series, movies, etc.), italicized or bolded?
- Name order with Japanese works: I personally prefer Official English name (if available), with Japanese name in brackets, for example Hayate the Combat Butler (Hayate no Gotoku). Opinions?
As said in the talk page, the references need to be split into (at least) following subcategories.
* Tributes to other anime and manga in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to other media in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other media
At the moment, organizing Tributes to NGE page is the more crucial task. Sorting Tributes in NGE becomes more topical once I get around posting those Gunbuster and Otaku no Video screencaps. Won't happen until next year, unfortunately.
Furthermore, the Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga page needs two further subcategories: one category for things that are certifiably (or with reasonable certainty) references, and another for "things that might or might not be references, so don't quote us on their ontological status". One of you native English-speakers can invent proper category titles.
- And of course, once the categories are in place, the references should be put in alphabetical order.
More to come...
- First things first: V, we need those referencing guidelines.
- Another (actually site-wide) matter of formatting: how do we mention the names of other creative works (books, anime series, movies, etc.), italicized or bolded?
- Name order with Japanese works: I personally prefer Official English name (if available), with Japanese name in brackets, for example Hayate the Combat Butler (Hayate no Gotoku). Opinions?
As said in the talk page, the references need to be split into (at least) following subcategories.
* Tributes to other anime and manga in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to other media in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other media
At the moment, organizing Tributes to NGE page is the more crucial task. Sorting Tributes in NGE becomes more topical once I get around posting those Gunbuster and Otaku no Video screencaps. Won't happen until next year, unfortunately.
Furthermore, the Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga page needs two further subcategories: one category for things that are certifiably (or with reasonable certainty) references, and another for "things that might or might not be references, so don't quote us on their ontological status". One of you native English-speakers can invent proper category titles.
- And of course, once the categories are in place, the references should be put in alphabetical order.
More to come...
Hey Ursus, what the bloody hell did you do?
The screencap in question is most definitely from Andromeda. I should know, because I spent so much time trying to catch the best possible frames. If the pattern also appears in episode 4, that only means they repeat the same visual reference twice.
(diff) (hist) . . Tributes to Other Shows in Neon Genesis Evangelion; 06:05 . . UrsusArctos (Talk | contribs) (→Other visuals - -Scrubbing this, it's Episode 04, not Andromeda!)
The screencap in question is most definitely from Andromeda. I should know, because I spent so much time trying to catch the best possible frames. If the pattern also appears in episode 4, that only means they repeat the same visual reference twice.
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Dr. Nick wrote:- Another (actually site-wide) matter of formatting: how do we mention the names of other creative works (books, anime series, movies, etc.), italicized or bolded?
I think the convention is using italics, and using the bold in the first mention of the title of the page.
- Name order with Japanese works: I personally prefer Official English name (if available), with Japanese name in brackets, for example Hayate the Combat Butler (Hayate no Gotoku). Opinions?
That sounds good to me.
As said in the talk page, the references need to be split into (at least) following subcategories.
* Tributes to other anime and manga in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to other media in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other media
Sounds good to me
Furthermore, the Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga page needs two further subcategories: one category for things that are certifiably (or with reasonable certainty) references, and another for "things that might or might not be references, so don't quote us on their ontological status". One of you native English-speakers can invent proper category titles.
Sounds good.
- And of course, once the categories are in place, the references should be put in alphabetical order.
Makes sense. I've been kind of keeping the questionable references near the bottom, but alpha sort is probably the best because the listing at the top is getting a little too long.
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Dr. Nick wrote:Hey Ursus, what the bloody hell did you do?
My apologies in case I missed out...but where in Andromeda do you see it? Is it during the 601 sequence or is it before?
EDIT: I've reverted it, do you have a timestamp just so I can make sure?
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The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
Dr. Nick wrote:Since the Tributes to NGE page has amassed a nice amount of content, we need to start thinking how to further sort the material. Also, some guidelines for contributions need to be set.
- First things first: V, we need those referencing guidelines.
- Another (actually site-wide) matter of formatting: how do we mention the names of other creative works (books, anime series, movies, etc.), italicized or bolded?
- Name order with Japanese works: I personally prefer Official English name (if available), with Japanese name in brackets, for example Hayate the Combat Butler (Hayate no Gotoku). Opinions?
As said in the talk page, the references need to be split into (at least) following subcategories.
* Tributes to other anime and manga in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to other media in Neon Genesis Evangelion
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga
* Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other media
At the moment, organizing Tributes to NGE page is the more crucial task. Sorting Tributes in NGE becomes more topical once I get around posting those Gunbuster and Otaku no Video screencaps. Won't happen until next year, unfortunately.
Furthermore, the Tributes to Neon Genesis Evangelion in other anime and manga page needs two further subcategories: one category for things that are certifiably (or with reasonable certainty) references, and another for "things that might or might not be references, so don't quote us on their ontological status". One of you native English-speakers can invent proper category titles.
- And of course, once the categories are in place, the references should be put in alphabetical order.
More to come...
Yes, I need to work out something definitive on this:
though off the top of my head, I can say: always italicized, never bolded. Yes, Start with English name (preferably the official one, if listed in Standards and Conventions' list) then Japanese name in parantheses)
You *do* bold something the first time it appears. I'm not sure if we're going to bother doing this for character names like "Shinji Ikari" as its implied that we're always using Romanized order, etc. etc. (I leave that for Reichu to work out, personally I wouldn't repeat the name like that).
Still, bold something if its the name of something; "Tributes to Eva in other shows" is a list, but it's still giving the name:
so....what you should do is if saying "My Neighbor Totoro":
My Neightbor Totoro (となりのトトロ, Tonari no Totoro)
I'm not sure if we should use Kanji as well like that, but might as well.
Who is "Codename V"?....
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I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...
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Sailor Star Dust wrote:I personally think using the Japanese name too is a good idea. If somebody doesn't know how to input it or the name in Japanese itself, the person that knows it could fill that blank in. *Shrugs*
at the very least, when the bots index the mediawiki stuff, there's more "anchors" that it can use. Another reason that I'm for using this format.
UrsusArctos wrote:do you have a timestamp just so I can make sure?
I don't know about the timestamp, but based on the sequence of my saved screencaps, it should appear immediately before "601" fills the screen. But it could be from another scene with green computer circuitry just as well.
EDIT: In case this actually is a giant screw-up on my part... OH FUCK.
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Add another homage: Death Note, Episode 27. Soichiro Yagami makes a Gendo pose. Ach, and a TV show in Death Note that's seen in Episode 30 and so on has the same flashes/sparkly Xs so prominently seen in NGE's intro.
Eureka Seven- the Nirvash power readings when it goes into the Seven Swell phenomenon is the same as the readings seen when the Rei-Lilith merger is detected. (And did I see sparkly things somewhere else in Eureka? I'm not sure.)
Eureka Seven- the Nirvash power readings when it goes into the Seven Swell phenomenon is the same as the readings seen when the Rei-Lilith merger is detected. (And did I see sparkly things somewhere else in Eureka? I'm not sure.)
Last edited by UrsusArctos on Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
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Dr. Nick wrote:I don't know about the timestamp, but based on the sequence of my saved screencaps, it should appear immediately before "601" fills the screen. But it could be from another scene with green computer circuitry just as well.
EDIT: In case this actually is a giant screw-up on my part... OH FUCK.
IIRC, the 601 only really fills the screen in NGE, and not Andromeda. And in Episode 05 the circuitry does flash in front of it.
EDIT: Screwup it is. Sorry, Nick. 601 flashes twice, but nowhere is the circuitry pattern seen. Its quite obvious why you made the mistake- there are a whole lot of flashes and green hexagons and then a whole lot of green lines that go past extremely fast before 601 appears. Someone could think he'd missed the circuitry pattern in there, when it wasn't in at all.
Reverting again...
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
UrsusArctos wrote:EDIT: Screwup it is. Sorry, Nick. 601 flashes twice, but nowhere is the circuitry pattern seen.
Okay, kill it. I think I've figured out what caused the problem with the screencap numbering. My procedure was to go through a scene and take lots of screenies, then select the best ones from my output folder and cut&paste them to my project folders (one for NGE, one for Andromeda). I should have used copy&paste, because removing pictures from the output folder screws up the sequence: the program doesn't like skipping numbers, so it'll recreate any file names removed earlier.
UrsusArctos wrote:Add another homage: Death Note, Episode 27. Soichiro Yagami makes a Gendo pose.
Gendo poses will receive a special treatment later on. If you have any, please donate to my ambassador folder.
"Sparkly things" are too vague to be counted as references. Ideon's ending had those, as well as every magical girl anime is existance.
I remeber the energy gauge from Eureka Seven, but was it really that similar? Comparison screenies would be nice (animated comparison gifs even better). Also, are the sound effects similar?
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As far as I know, there is no way one can screenshot out of a Youtube clip, since I saw the scene on Youtube. I guess I've got to find someone with Death Note or download it myself. The X-shaped black flashes with halations may be specific to Evangelion due to their design or the manner in which they appear.
Same goes for the Eureka Seven gauge...but I'll get a shot of it if I can.
Animated GIFs are something I've never tried before, although it admittedly is the only way to show those two comparisions.
Same goes for the Eureka Seven gauge...but I'll get a shot of it if I can.
Animated GIFs are something I've never tried before, although it admittedly is the only way to show those two comparisions.
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Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
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UrsusArctos wrote:As far as I know, there is no way one can screenshot out of a Youtube clip, since I saw the scene on Youtube. I guess I've got to find someone with Death Note or download it myself. The X-shaped black flashes with halations may be specific to Evangelion due to their design or the manner in which they appear.
I have it downloaded, but I'm visiting my parents atm and don't have access to them. This is how you take multiple screencaps from flashvideo (exception being possibly veoh)
1) watch the video and wait for the buffer to fill, this means the entire video has been downloaded and cached.
2) in firefox, enter "about:cache" into your location bar
3) Look for something that ends with ".flv" or something large that has a timestamp of when you started watching the video
4) using the link, save it somewhere else
5) using a flash video capable player (zoom, mplayer, etc), watch the video and take the screenshots
Animated GIFs are something I've never tried before, although it admittedly is the only way to show those two comparisions.
Same as before, but I use mplayer since it will seek, play X number of frames, only play every n number of frames and output everything as pngs or jpgs in a directory. Using the GIMP, you can open them all up one image per layer, do whatever adjusting you need to do, save as gif and click save as animation.
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