Name Order

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Name Order

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Postby V » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:00 am

should name order on the wiki be "Ikari Shinji" or "Shinji Ikari"?

Nextly, how should the name of Asuka and her mother be written?

"Asuka Langley Soryu
Kyoko Soryu Zeppelin" ...?

make it official :)

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Postby Ornette » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:29 am

V wrote:name order stuff


Relevant quotes:
Reichu wrote:Spelling and name order should go like so:

Gendo Ikari
Hikari Horaki
Kaworu Nagisa
Keel Lorenz
Kensuke Aida
Kozo Fuyutsuki
Makoto Hyuga
Maya Ibuki
Misato Katsuragi
Naoko Akagi
Rei Ayanami
Ritsuko Akagi
Ryoji Kaji
Shigeru Aoba
Shinji Ikari
Shiro Tokita
Asuka Langley Soryu
Kyoko Soryu Zeppelin
Toji Suzuhara
Yui Ikari

(This means you boys already have some corrections to make.)

Our favorite sphenisciform's name is officially written Pen². As such, it would be my inclination to go with that -- although there seems to be a certain favoritism for the variation that doesn't involve superscript.

Also, on the subject of Asuka and Kyoko... Despite what I listed above, I did violate my own anal tendencies and throw the Soryu and Zeppelin on the end, whereas in the official Romanizations they are placed at the front. I started doing this to, optimally, emphasize the fact that "Langley Soryu" and "Soryu Zeppelin" are compound surnames, and to maintain continuity with the fact that everyone else on the list is Given First. But let's vote on this one.

Also on the subject of name order, the fact that, aside from Asuka and Kyoko, the official Romanizations invert the Japanese name order creates a small problem... Our script policy (which I'll get to presently) is to include the honorifics. This works out fine when a suffix is attached to just a given or surname, but, occasionally, we'll see the characters attach honorifics to the end of someone's full name -- e.g., "Akagi Ritsuko-kun". However, turning this into "Ritsuko Akagi-kun" sounds terribly artificial.

As a result, I make the tentative suggestion that Japanese name order is maintained in character dialogue (the script and citations thereof), but swapped in our own writing. This may create some confusion, but it's the best option, in my opinion.


ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:First and foremost, I would have to say that I'm very, very much against the proposed surname placement. I think it's going to be a rather unnatural angloisation, and in fact an unnessesary one. We hold the original Japanese dialogue over the dub, so I think that not using the Japanese name order is a bad idea.

Personally, I cringe whenever I see it written as "Shinji Ikari". "Ikari Shinji" is what we hear on screen, and what the name actually is to begin with. OK, it may be a little confusing for the casual observer, but the wiki isn't really for casual observers. I think we should distinguish ourselves from every other wiki and stick to the original Japanese as tightly as possible. This is one way of doing that.

The issue with honorifics has already been mentioned as a problem with trying to bolt european name ordering onto NGE character names. It's an avoidable problem, and the only real issue here is with people who should eventually learn the right order anyway. We can also avoid this issue almost entirely by putting two fields, First name and Surname into the character infoboxes.

Also on honorifics, when citing, I think that honorifics should always be included if they were present. If it's confusing, we can simply have a wiki page on honorific use, and on name order for that matter.

As to Asuka and Kyoko's names, I feel the compound name should be included. It's really unambiguous because Asuka gives her full name in episode #08, and it is mentioned again in this form by others, and Kyoko's full name is on her tombstone. Official character pages should have the characters full, offical name. Abbreviations will of course be neccessary in other places, but their offical names should be what is given in the show.(In Japanese)


thewayneiac wrote:I prefer the western name order myself; I had to use the Japanese order on the material I created in order to make the links work because the character pages were already set up that way.


thewayneiac wrote:
Reichu wrote:
ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:So everyone is fully resolved to the westernised name order? I'd hoped would get a little more debate.

Well, we still haven't heard from The Quiet One.
The thing that decides it for me is that the Japanese prefer to flip their names when writing them in western languages. (or so I understand).


So it looks like it will be westernized in the Wiki, but flipped in the scripts and when quoting from the script.

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Postby V » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:58 am

fair enough.

And her name will be spelled "soryu"....okay....

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:23 am

V wrote:And her name will be spelled "soryu"....okay....

That's the official onscreen spelling(eps #22').
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Postby thewayneiac » Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:02 pm

Hmmm....

V just made a very interesting point in one of his posting notes on the Wiki. Keel Lorenz is known as "Chairman Keel", implying that Keel is his family name. Did the Show use Japanese order for his name? Should we have been calling him "Lorenz Keel" all of this time?
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Postby V » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:24 pm

indeed; I am very confused

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:47 pm

I'm sure there's something in the official literature about this.. somewhere. It's always been simply "Keel" for me, and Lorentz sounds like a first name. We'll get it eventually.
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Postby Ornette » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:18 pm

In episode 15 of the platinum subtitles, they list off the board of directors of one of the companies in the Marduk Institute:
ep15 plat subs wrote:Gendo Ikari
Kouzou Fuyutsuki
Kiel Lorenz

The first 2 has been switched around to be westernized, but wouldn't it be strange to have switched around a gaijin name? I've always thought Lorenz was his last name and it's a common Austrian/German surname (Konrad Zacharias Lorenz, Max Lorenz, Ludvig Lorenz, Werner Lorenz).

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:21 pm

First name Keel, last name Lorenz. Written in katakana as キール・ローレンツ, KI-RU ・ RO-RENTSU. This is a typical example of how Western names are presented in Japanese writing; the ・ separates given name from surname. Keel simply goes by his first name (by default) for reasons unspecified.

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Postby V » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:57 pm

the evidence all seems in place.


still, an odd choice to call him "Chairman Keel"...
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