The Wiki Thread (General)

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The Wiki Thread (General)

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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:27 pm

In This Thread, we discuss general Wiki matters.

The plan is to have the site's content (such as it is...) moved over to a Systema Wikimedia. In theory, this will allow the Commentary crap (and everything else) to be edited with the greatest of ease. Plus there is the bonus that it makes having multiple people working on the site easy-peasy.

But just for the record, I have no intention of Wiki editing being public, or even "registered only". At least for the forseeable future, editors will be limited to a pool of selected individuals chosen by the High Council (and me). We'd, logically, be looking for dependable individuals who will generate good stuff, and have demonstrated in advance their ability to do so (via forum antics or whatever).

It should really be "invite only" by default, but there would be a proviso allowing for 'familiar individuals' to submit requests (if we by chance skipped them by), with the knowledge that they might get turned down. However, "random nobodies" would invariably have to establish themselves first. That's why forum registration will be public, after all...

Who to invite as a "Scribe" can be held off until the Promised Time.

At this point, I defer to OMF so that he might set the stage for further discussion.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Wiki Thread (General)

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:28 pm

I thank the chair.... ahem!

For the Record, the wiki is currently located here.

As you can see, there's a lot of work to de done. (Not least of which is the theme and logo). I think the wiki has a lot of potential to a) host the commentary itself, and b) give evangelion, and the community, the wiki it richly deserves. It could greatly assist in emphasising the interconnection in evangelion as well as an archive of our collected musings.

Reichu wrote:It should really be "invite only" by default, but there would be a proviso allowing for 'familiar individuals' to submit requests (if we by chance skipped them by), with the knowledge that they might get turned down.

Already done. The system is currently "invite only". Only sysyops( currently Reichu,OMF) can add users to the system via email. Also, though the wiki is open to the public for viewing, only registered users can edit, as requested.

Editing and creating pages should be fairly straightforward if you're familiar with Wikipedia. If not, it should be fairly straightforward anyway. Click on the "edit" tab above each page to start editing or just to take a look at the wiki code that makes the page. Here are two pages to help everyone get started with editing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editor

Don't worry about making mistakes or even messing things up. Mediawiki features a "version" system whereby any and all changes can be reviewed and reverted if necessary. No one can permanantly screw up the Wiki. It's technically impossible, so feel very free to make mistakes in the learning process.

The system is running on Mediawiki 1.8, which means we have an up to date system with all the bells and whistles. Essentially, functionality should be exactly what wikipedia has right now. You should also note that we have the ability to set up what are known as "templates" to make those nice neat boxes you see on the main page and on the character pages. Feel free to either request or create new ones for various tasks. Also feel free to make changes to existing template of course!

As to Wiki membership, I feel we shouldn't be overly picky. As long as someone is enthusiastic, they can probably contribute positively, even if it's only simple things like editing, spellchecking and various maintaince. I don't think we should let all and sundry sign up, but even less "verbose" forumites should be considered as potential candidates.

Currently, the wiki is rather sparse, and our first task should be to get some pages out there, and worry about overall structure later. At the moment, I think we should edit in a free for all, I mean, in a natural way and let the wiki evolve before we consider overall structure. There'a lot of red pages that need content. Best we simply just get something out the door ASAP.

I'll finish by bringing up some concrete issues. Firstly, we don't have an image policy. I'm unsure if setting anything in stone is a good idea, but for now, I've run by a guideline of 260x190 pixel images, which are under 20KB(example). This is quite restrictive, (a holdover the beta's old host) so we should discuss some sane guidelines under which images are posted. Also note to please add images to the images category when you upload them.

Secondly, I thought a good place to start writing would be on the episode pages. But I'm unsure of how to proceed with the episode synopsises. To be frank, I've always disliked these, and they are a pain to write, but I can't think of anything better to do with the episode pages. Any ideas?
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:28 pm

The images thing needs to get sorted out. I'm very "archivalistic" when it comes to this sort of thing -- if you look at the way images are organized on the "Old Site"... -- and I'd prefer to have preestablished guidelines before pictures start getting uploaded all over the place.

Also, certain aspects of the way MediaWiki handles images go against my religious beliefs. But I need to screw around more with things so that I can articulate my bitchery in all its hot-blooded goriness.

Mundanities like episode and character pages? Well, let me say this: I don't think we really need to "force" anything. Just create content as it comes and leave in big <insert stuff regarding blah blah blah here> prompts as reminders of/placeholders for what should be added. The flow of forum (etc.) discussion and personal whim should really be enough to get things going. "You know, I feel like adding that random crap about 'Complementation' vs 'Instrumentality' and Cordwainer Smith to the Wiki today..." or, "Oh, in the name of all things sacred, not the 'S2 engine not in core' thing again. Better add this to the Wiki and be done with it." Etc., etc.

General guidelines and rules should be sketched out in advance. Also, to minimize the potential mess, content organization should be discussed if its placement is not completely intuitive. ("lol where do i put the stuff about asukas injuries in the mp eva battle, kthxbye") This show is batshit crazy, after all. Plan ahead. More work initially -- less work later.

I want to make sure this thing is really READY before we open OMF's "floodgates" (as he's put it many times).
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Postby Ryousanki King » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:38 pm

Looks like a good setup so far, I applaud you guys. My notes on general junk:

- I vote for a mix-ish thing of what Reichu and OMF have in mind for the members who can edit. I'm leery of restricting it as much as Reichu wishes to, although that would make it a lot easier to coordinate, but on the flip side, work and general stuff would go a lot faster if we open it up a bit more as OMF is suggesting.

- The image restrictions are kind of...well, restrictive, but on the flip side it makes it a lot easier to manage. I don't really have an opinion here, but I would say the ability to upload a higher resolution image here or there (for example, the Reiquarium stuff) would probably come in handy, however.

- I tend to agree with Reichu about the episode pages and stuff. I don't find them that important, but content is content, and volume is probably more important at this stage.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:52 am

I'll need to dork around with the Wiki some -- in between The Other Things -- so I can get a clearer vision in my head of what needs to happen before I can comfortably say, "Go for it". I've already mentioned some of the things I have in mind for the to-do list, such as formulating the various guidelines in advance -- we can start sketching up some of the basic stuff now.

Once I fully investigate the premises, I imagine that I'll end up conjuring a gory list of demands for Wiki tweaks. We can, erm, resume negotiations at that point. :ninja:
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:06 am

Tell you what. I'll draft a set of image guidelines on the Wiki itself, and you can simply come along and tweak the specifics. To be very honest, I don't think we should become too hung up on this.

Edit:
Also, we need to discuss membership. As in, "Why haven't you added any new members Reichu?". Do we need people to volunteer, or will secret summons be issued in the night? Who wants in on the Wiki?
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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:53 am

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:To be very honest, I don't think we should become too hung up on this.

But I must. It is my duty. My purpose. If I do not, then who will? Kyufufufu.

Also, we need to discuss membership. As in, "Why haven't you added any new members Reichu?".

Because...

Reichu wrote:I'll need to dork around with the Wiki some -- in between The Other Things -- so I can get a clearer vision in my head of what needs to happen before I can comfortably say, "Go for it".

I am having a vision of much friction between OMF's zeal and Reichu's need to be On Top Of Things. :tonguegrin: But, oh well -- if nothing else, it helps motivate me to work faster on this crap in my off hours instead of staring blankly at the screen like I usually do.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:36 pm

At least give the council members accounts so you can get more suggestions and feedback. Not much else is going to evolve for consideration with just me making edits.

Edit:
I've typed up some draft image guidlines. The 50 and 30KB limits are completely arbitrary. I really have no idea how big they should be.

However the images sizes were chosen so that the TV and movies images would have the same height so as to fit smoothly beside one another, and also to maintain the appropriate image aspect ratio exactly in each case. They are:
TV: 252x189 pixels.
Movie: 336x189 pixels.

And for the smaller "thumbnail" images:
TV:156x117 pixels
Movie 208x117 pixels.

However, we may want the TV and movie images to have the same width instead. In this case, 256x192 and 256x144 would be the correct aspect ratios for the larger TV and movie images respectively and 160x120 and 160x90 for the thumbnail images.

I think standard movie images are a little too small in the second case. Naturally I feel that they should appear larger than the TV images, as there will be less of them anyway. But I'm about as aesthetically gifted as a bactrian camel, so I'll defer to others judgement.
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Re: The Wiki Thread (General)

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Postby Dr. Nick » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:40 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:As you can see, there's a lot of work to de done. (Not least of which is the theme and logo). I think the wiki has a lot of potential to a) host the commentary itself, and b) give evangelion, and the community, the wiki it richly deserves.


As far as I know, at least one "general" Evangelion wiki already exists. Do we really need to create competition? If and when our team compiles, say, a definitive list of annoying Eva-misconceptions, will it become a commentary appendix or will it go to the wiki, or will those two be at that point exactly the same thing? And if the FGC is going to become all-wiki, will it still have the (theoretical, lol) ability to be completed and locked, or will it stay, like, you know, Wikipedia, open for endless revision?

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:05 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:As far as I know, at least one "general" Evangelion wiki already exists. Do we really need to create competition?

With wanting do appear concieted, I think we can do a better job. Primarly because the ideas on the forums are subject to substantial peer review. The wiki can serve as a kind of compliation and presentation of all the investigation and understanding of Evangelion that we've gleaned on the forums over the years. I think we have a serious quality control advantage over other offerings.

My understandings of many of the other wiki's is that the forum community is not heavily involved. Then again, to be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely familiar with all the Eva communities out there. Does anyone have a complete list?

Dr. Nick wrote:If and when our team compiles, say, a definitive list of annoying Eva-misconceptions, will it become a commentary appendix or will it go to the wiki, or will those two be at that point exactly the same thing?
It's envisioned that the wiki software will host all the commentary pages in a flexible and user friendly way. On top of that, the commentary pages themselves will be able to easily link to other pages on the wiki where appropriate. So we can easily link to "misconception" pages and such while we chat away about the episodes. Essentially commentary pages will be other wiki pages, perhaps in some "commentary" namespace. Also, in response to your next question...

Dr. Nick wrote:And if the FGC is going to become all-wiki, will it still have the (theoretical, lol) ability to be completed and locked, or will it stay, like, you know, Wikipedia, open for endless revision?

The "offical" commentary pages will probably be editable only by Reichu herself. Her word will be final on their content, and other users will be unable to change them. As to other wiki pages, they will be editable by everyone, but "everyone" is going to be a restricted set of "trustworthy" editors. I'm against being overly exclusive, but I think that membership should be by invitation only.

We should seriously discuss wiki membership. I'm in favour of seeking out all the online Eva communities we can and issuing general invitations to both the wiki and the commentary. Once we're ready of course. I'm an optimist in this regard that we will get enthusiastic and productive people. If view on other forums come into conflict with out own, I think that's also a good thing, as it will increase the peer review process and introduce us to new ideas.

But at the moment, I think it's a good idea that the wiki consists of more than three members. So with that in mind:
Would anyone like to volunteer for wiki membership?
If we don't get many volunteers, I'm probably going to bug Reichu to send you all unsolicited account details anyway, so you all may as well stop fighting and accept that your future lies in the great and glorious evacommentary wiki!! I mean... any help you can offer is appreciated.
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Postby Ryousanki King » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:16 pm

What the hell, I'll sign on. If nothing else, I can be a copypasta monkey. Not like there's -that- much for me to do around here to begin with. XP

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Postby Ornette » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:51 pm

Am I still a member? I assumed it was the same database.

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:18 pm

Ornette wrote:Am I still a member? I assumed it was the same database.

I couldn't migrate the old database to Mediawiki 1.8. It was more hassle than it was worth, so I just copied and pasted what content there was onto the new wiki. Hence, everyone has to sign up all over again.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:56 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
Ornette wrote:Am I still a member? I assumed it was the same database.

I couldn't migrate the old database to Mediawiki 1.8. It was more hassle than it was worth, so I just copied and pasted what content there was onto the new wiki. Hence, everyone has to sign up all over again.

Sign me up. Email = jonlin@tesuji.org

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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:16 pm

Oh yes, that reminds me.

If you want to sign up for the wiki, Reichu will need two things.
1)A username
2)An email address.

Reichu should be able to sign everyone up. That is, if I remembered to hell her how.
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Postby Ryousanki King » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:19 pm

Reichu knows my email, but for clarity's sake, I'll post it again anyways:

vegavaikyuko@gmail.com

As for username, Treize X or Ryousanki King will suffice (whichever is deemed more prudent to not be confusing. Not like it'll matter, I guess).

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:15 pm

I'll try to mess around in the Wiki tomorrow, so I'll hopefully have something intelligent to post here. The Wiki is new and big and scary, and you need to give me some time for these things, being the finicky ape that I am. :tongueflap:
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:33 pm

Reichu wrote:I'll try to mess around in the Wiki tomorrow, so I'll hopefully have something intelligent to post here. The Wiki is new and big and scary, and you need to give me some time for these things, being the finicky ape that I am. :tongueflap:

Inertia Reichu. Intertia.

Try and get familiar with the create account system first. It's pretty straightforward. You just go to Special Pages->log in/create account->create an account. Then you just put in a username and email and click "by email". No mess no fuss.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:30 am

Thoughts -

* Find an image, any image, name it eva-wiki-logo.jpg and at least replace the placeholder with one of ours.

* The only other Eva wiki I've bumped into is the one at evafics.org -- open reg, but (when I last looked) fairly low activity.

* I'm still not sure how we are going to reconcile the linear scene-to-scene, cut-to-cut of the existing commentary pages with the wiki format.

One possibility is to take the existing pages like

http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-05/episode-05A-scene1A.html

and place an iframe in each commentary cell, pointing at the matching wiki entry for the scene and cut (and also a link-to icon -- with a little bit of script, to make it a fly-out). That way you can still read the pages as at present, getting the overview and context, as opposed to having them atomised amongst many per-cut pages
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:12 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:* Find an image, any image, name it eva-wiki-logo.jpg and at least replace the placeholder with one of ours.

This is something probably best discussed in the "Matter's of Design Thread". The entire wiki is likely to undergo a complete design makeover anyway, so any image would be temporary. However, we really should try and get some kind of a logo together.


Mr. Tines wrote:* I'm still not sure how we are going to reconcile the linear scene-to-scene, cut-to-cut of the existing commentary pages with the wiki format.


That reminds me. Here's a proptotype/sandbox of what the FGC pages will look like on the Wiki. Actually, it's more of a technical prototype on how they can be created via the wiki syntax. The final look will probably be nothing like this.

As for navigation, I was thinking of the kind of boexes you can see on the front page. Again, this is for the design thread more so than anything else.
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