Misato and Shinji (Again)

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Re: What indicates that Misato offered Shinji sex in ep23?

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Postby JimmyWolk » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:25 am

Monk Ed wrote:The first, second, and thirtieth time I saw that episode and that scene, I simply didn't get that vibe. {...} The theme of that scene doesn't even touch upon sex, instead emphasizing the more generic "human contact".
It's the same for me. The idea never even crossed my mind until it was suddenly treated as almost fact in the fandom. She wants to comfort him physically, but there's nothing indicating that she intended more than a hug. That Shinji jerks his hand away was always obviously to me just saying "Leave me alone!" not "Don't molest me!"

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:31 am

PHALLIC SYMBOL LOL:
http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-23/episode-23B-scene6.html#cut212

The hinting of the Big Irony Bomb in episode 2 (put the moves on a kid!), the Bomb exploding in 23', Misato's farewell kiss in 25' as well as her disgust with herself in 25 of EoTV all seem to imply that she wanted sex from him for whatever reason.

Also, see this thread: http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3287 (Merged with it)
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Postby JimmyWolk » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:49 am

Sorry, but "irony" isn't really a reason. That's more "Hey, I like irony, it be very ironic if she put moves on Shinji after saying she won't, so she does, cuz I like irony there."
If at all, that's reserved for the adult kiss - and even that is more for him than for her IMO.
And in 25 it was about showing her true (dirty) self to Shinji (rather a reference to ep. 7). That she doesn't want him to see actually contradicts that she was about putting her moves on him.
ed: Never mind, I guess, you mean that afterwards. However, that's more of a general "you suck!" collage. Not sure if I'd draw direct references from that.

ed2: reading through the thread, I guess you mean the earlier bit after all. Still, to me her conflict was really about showing, not about wanting to do the same with him. On one hand she loved him enough that a part of her wanted to show her true self entirely to him - but as "mother", it's unlikely that she'd want her "son" to see her getting it on with Kaji; what a dirty, disgusting woman she is.

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Postby Sharaz Destler » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:27 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Gendou: Obsessed with Yui to the point of screwing all of humanity (though at least not as bad as what SEELE planned???) just to be with her again.


Considering the topic of this thread, you just might want to rephrase that a little bit. :sweatdrop:
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Re: What indicates that Misato offered Shinji sex in ep23?

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:02 pm

Monk Ed wrote:Furthermore, if she was offering sex at this point, doesn't that rob the EoE kiss scene of its power?


I agree. The evidence that this scene was meant to be her offering the comfort of her body is primarily extra-textual, in comments made by production staff.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:14 pm

Yes she was just freaking out about it in EoTV cause she wanted a hug /sarcasm.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:17 pm

I know if I wanted a hug from a 14-year-old boy I would feel filthy and disgusting, too. :bigeyes:
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Postby PartyHard » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:29 pm

And that's why after seeing that scene Maya called her dirty, Ritsuko pathetic and Asuka disgusting and other pretty things. Because she tried to give a hug.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:16 pm

Yeah, there is that EoTV scene, but I thought the question was whether or not she was making a conscious offer. I do realize that a part of Misato wanted to do Shinji, and that it may have been expressing itself in that scene... subconsciously. But I seriously doubt she was making an overt offer of sex consciously. Rather, her touch was of the sort that longs for closeness so desperately that it might become a closeness that is wrong.

But so is her every touch, and that is the tragedy of her character, and is why she keeps running away from Shinji. She doesn't know herself well enough to know how to stop herself. She doesn't trust herself. The power of the kiss scene, consequently, is that she does it consciously; she is able to finally admit this thing in herself that repulses her, no matter how painful or wrong.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:30 pm

Monk Ed wrote:But I seriously doubt she was making an overt offer of sex consciously.

I'd say it was straddling a very, very fine line... Shinji's rather extreme reaction suggests he was getting distinctly weird vibes from her, and Misato's own reaction to this is revealing in and of itself. Not to mention her strange comment, "Is he afraid of women?" Think about it...

Rather, her touch was of the sort that longs for closeness so desperately that it might become a closeness that is wrong. ... But so is her every touch

That might be exaggerating a bit. For example, when Misato gives him a noogie in episode 02, Shinji doesn't freak out. Or maybe you mean something more specific by "touch".
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:02 pm

Reichu wrote:
Monk Ed wrote:But I seriously doubt she was making an overt offer of sex consciously.

I'd say it was straddling a very, very fine line... Shinji's rather extreme reaction suggests he was getting distinctly weird vibes from her, and Misato's own reaction to this is revealing in and of itself. Not to mention her strange comment, "Is he afraid of women?" Think about it...

Hmm... Hmm... I did think Shinji's reaction was a bit weird the first time I saw it, but I didn't think it was because of strange vibes from her, because he's pretty (in)famous for not getting "signals" of that variety. But the "women" comment does stand out.

"Straddling a very fine line" is a good way to put it. There is a line of conscious intent I always thought of Misato's actions as being close to, with this one being the closest to it pre-EoE. I've revised my opinion to consider it may actually be much closer than I initially thought, but I still stand by that it doesn't cross it-- that privilege is reserved for the kiss.

Rather, her touch was of the sort that longs for closeness so desperately that it might become a closeness that is wrong. ... But so is her every touch

That might be exaggerating a bit. For example, when Misato gives him a noogie in episode 02, Shinji doesn't freak out. Or maybe you mean something more specific by "touch".

I didn't mean literally her every touch. Rather, her every attempt at sincerity/sincere intimacy. That could also be one reason why she's so jokey all the time, because humor makes it "okay", in a way that fits the description "lives life so lightly as to barely allow the possibility of human contact".

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:13 am

I'm not sure if she was specifically offering sex (though it was probably a possibility somewhere in the back of her mind at the time) rather than just some physical contact... a shoulder to cry on. I think she's well aware that it might progress into something more if she isn't careful, and dismissing that is why she hesitates outside the door.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:39 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Yes she was just freaking out about it in EoTV cause she wanted a hug /sarcasm.


It depends how you parse that sequence -- put Shinji's reaction in with everyone else's negative reactions to her revelling in shallow comforts of the flesh, as I did when watching, and it holds together coherently as the equivalent of the "Does Misato do this?" "Will I turn out just like her?" sequence in EoE.

Remember, Maya was disgusted at what she thought was just a bit of time-passing canoodling going in in the lift during the power cut -- the week long marathon would surely set her off, without needing to go any further.
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Postby JimmyWolk » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:15 am

Mr. Tines wrote:
Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Yes she was just freaking out about it in EoTV cause she wanted a hug /sarcasm.


It depends how you parse that sequence -- put Shinji's reaction in with everyone else's negative reactions to her revelling in shallow comforts of the flesh, as I did when watching, and it holds together coherently as the equivalent of the "Does Misato do this?" "Will I turn out just like her?" sequence in EoE.

Remember, Maya was disgusted at what she thought was just a bit of time-passing canoodling going in in the lift during the power cut -- the week long marathon would surely set her off, without needing to go any further.
That's pretty much what I meant. That this bit isn't out of context from 23, but in line with the "you're such a disgusting woman to have such relationship (with Kaji!)", as in "I don't want someone like you touch me!". You've got to remember that besides all the hentai and fanservice, Japan is quite conservative on such matters, and her having sex just to enjoy herself pretty much marks her as slut.

In 23 itself, that Shinji acts differently to this touch than to one in Ep 2 should be obvious. He's hurt and mourning Rei; of course he's more sensible then. Have you never seen anyone who's hurt like that rebuffing someone who thinks s/he has to comfort that person? Some people just want to be left alone. And if Shinji really would have pulled away because he thinks Misato wanted to do more - how the hell did he even know just by her reaching for his hand?

That Misato is wondering if it has to do with him being afraid of women is in my eyes also just another counter. Related to sex, yes, but rather that she's wondering if he's not comfortable because of the sexual tension it could imply. Just as well she could have asked if he would be more at ease if he'd have a male shoulder to cry on - and not in the meaning that she thinks that he's gay.
It's just her trying to make a logical reasoning to his reaction and not in a "how the hell could he not want to sex this damn hawt body? *finger lick, touch skin, fiss*"-way.
Really, with her going to PenPen afterwards, and her figuring that she's lonely after not even a bird would give her comfort - are you saying she wanted some penguin pen0r there?

I stick with "she just wants a hug".

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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:38 am

JimmyWolk wrote:That's pretty much what I meant.
(...)
I stick with "she just wants a hug".

Man. Wish I'd come up with all that. I'd forgotten what sort of binary thinking geek-speculation-mode tends to put me in. But that was just downright sensible. Now I'm convinced back the other way.

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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:08 am

JimmyWolk wrote:And if Shinji really would have pulled away because he thinks Misato wanted to do more - how the hell did he even know just by her reaching for his hand?

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but it may help underline your point, so here goes:
It does seem to me that people are prone to blowing things out of proportion. They take something little that probably means nothing and assume it has deep implications. The example that stands out most in my mind is the scene in Episode 9 where Asuka tell Shinji that they're all alone and then heads to her room. The Evapedia describes it as follows:
"The night before the battle, Misato has to work late. When Asuka hears this, while stepping out of the shower, she hints to Shinji that they are all alone. When she doesn't get any response, she storms into Misato's room to sleep alone"

Doesn't get any response? Unless I watched some version where they cut out a minute of Shinji looking up, saying, "Okay...so what?" and going back to what he was doing, there is absolutely NO correlation between Shinji's response and Asuka's actions. There's just not enough time for that. If anything, "we're alone" probably just means, "Misato can't force us to sleep in the same room tonight."

The point is, people tend to read into things so much. If they would just take things at face value, there would be a lot less inaccurate speculation and, who knows, we might actually be able to understand the series.

Like JimmyWolk said, Misato's statements about Pen^2 immediately after the incident with Shinji almost unequivocally prove that she was just trying to reach out to him, not take advantage of him.

Shin-seiki wrote:If her intentions were innocent, what has she got to be sorry about?!

People apologize for reactions; it happens all the time. If I make a joke and someone gets offended, I'll apologize, regardless of whether or not I personally thought the joke was wrong. Misato is doing the same thing here. Shinji's reaction is unexpected for her, and she apologizes and leaves in order to not aggravate him further.
Last edited by Gamer_2k4 on Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:35 am

Doesn't get any response? Unless I watched some version where they cut out a minute of Shinji looking up, saying, "Okay...so what?" and going back to what he was doing, there is absolutely NO correlation between Shinji's response and Asuka's actions. There's just not enough time for that.


Read the following thread I linked to when you have a moment. There isn't any time skip between Shinji's response and Asuka going to Misato's room (and I'm assuming you haven't seen the Director's Cuts episodes? 22' in particular during Asuka's mind rape makes that scene as well as her relationship with Shinji clearer):

http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=66823#66823
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:54 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:
Doesn't get any response? Unless I watched some version where they cut out a minute of Shinji looking up, saying, "Okay...so what?" and going back to what he was doing, there is absolutely NO correlation between Shinji's response and Asuka's actions. There's just not enough time for that.


Read the following thread I linked to when you have a moment. There isn't any time skip between Shinji's response and Asuka going to Misato's room (and I'm assuming you haven't seen the Director's Cuts episodes? 22' in particular during Asuka's mind rape makes that scene as well as her relationship with Shinji clearer):

http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=66823#66823


Great, and now I'm torn between telling everyone why they're wrong and not necroposting.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:57 pm

Necropost. We don't care around here.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:53 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:It depends how you parse that sequence -- put Shinji's reaction in with everyone else's negative reactions to her revelling in shallow comforts of the flesh, as I did when watching, and it holds together coherently as the equivalent of the "Does Misato do this?" "Will I turn out just like her?" sequence in EoE.

I wasn't talking about Shinji's reaction. Note I said "she". Not sure why the hell you turned to Shinji there. Add inner Misato's you are actually happy to show this to Shinji and it's not hard to see it really is a slip. Hell she says she looses all hope for herself right after the flashback to 23, how can anyone think that was innocent?
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