Misato and Shinji (Again)

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Misato and Shinji (Again)

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Postby Themaninblack » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:10 pm

This is by no means a recent idea...but notheless I want hear to both sides of the agrument on wheter Misato's and Shinji's realtionship was purely plationic... I personaly think it was more than that but I have my doubts...aka some respect for Misato
Last edited by Themaninblack on Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ornette » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:16 pm

See this thread: http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=445

But it's locked so I'll leave this one unlocked.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:39 pm

My thoughts, reposted here for convenience's sake since the other thread's locked & just in case this discussion will be brought up all over again. ;)

I wrote:Misato tried to be a surrogate mother towards Shinji, any feelings she had towards him were her flirting/ sexually teasing* as it's part of her personality and simply that, teasing, or because of her loneliness (and emotional attachment to Shinji since he's her "son" and all) after Kaji's death such as 23'.

With EoE, the kiss and "doing the rest when you come back", it was to show Shinji he DOES have some self-worth, to get him to pilot Eva. Note after she pushes Shinji into the elevator and falls to the floor, when calling out for Kaji she says "I did the right thing, right?", implying it was her way of getting Shinji to take some action.

*It should be noted both Asuka and Kaworu also tease Shinji in this way. Asuka in the episode 10 thermal expansion pool scene (as well as throughout the series), Kaworu's "together with me?" after Shinji says they have to go to bed in 24'. So what, does that mean all three of 'em want to jump his bones? ....On second thought, don't answer that. :lol:



I wrote:In terms of her flirting/teasing, Misato herself even said (early on, I think episode 5) this:

NGE Episode 5 wrote:

Shinji: Stop teasing me!

Misato: Because you always take it so seriously. :D

Ritsuko: Just like Misato.

Misato: :shock:


implying that teasing is just part of her personality. With 23' and onward, although she tried to be a surrogate mother to Shinji, her loneliness/subconscious desire for a "man who can't leave her behind" ("men always go for into their own world and leave me behind."~25 (Katsuragi-hakase, Kaji(??)) finally won out. eg, Shinji can't "leave her behind" because he's dependent on her for a place to live and such.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:54 pm

IMO on this, while I think Misato and her flirting/teasing is just a part of her personality, after that scene in 23'...
Shin-seiki (originally) wrote:Here a transcript of the scene in question, off the new and improved Sub script for #23' on the Resurrection DVD:

Misato:
Shinji, I'm coming in.

Shinji:
Misato, the tears won't come.
I feel sad, but the tears just won't come.

Misato:
Shinji, this is about all I can do for you right now.

Shinji:
Stop it!
Stop it, Misato.

Misato:
I'm sorry.

Misato (MONO):
But he must be feeling lonely...
Is he afraid of women?
No, he's afraid of being intimate with people.

Misato:
Pen Pen, come here.

Misato (MONO):
I see, it doesn't matter who.
I am the one who is lonely.

If you watch the scene in Japanese, it is pretty plain what Misato was up to, based on Shinji's tone and demeanor, and Misato's chagrin as she beats a very hasty retreat from the room. (If her intentions were innocent, what has she got to be sorry about?!)
Plus:


Misato (MONO):
But he must be feeling lonely...
Is he afraid of women?
No, he's afraid of being intimate with people.

I mean, come on! Does she need to spell it out any plainer than that?!

That Shinji was thoroughly freaked out by Misato's coming on to him is a significant, tho unstated, factor in his brief, intense relationship with Kaworu:


Shinji:
Well, the usual test was over and,
I was going to have a shower before I went home.
But, I don't want to go home these days.

And, of course, Misato herself realizes that she really blew it (i.e. violated the acceptable boundaries of her relationship with Shinji):


Misato:
Shinji-kun has not returned.
I am disqualified as his guardian.

But even if you fail to pick up on it on the basis of all that, it becomes perfectly obvious what she was up to, by the way the scene is referenced in #25:

(replaying the #23 scene)

Shinji:
Stop it, Misato!
-----
Misato:
Sometimes, I lose all hope for myself!
I hate it!

Maya:
Filth, you're so dirty.

Ritsuko:
You're pathetic.

Asuka:
Disgusting! You're just foul!
That's what you call a mature relationship?!
You make me puke!

Finally I should point out (again!) that the Newtype Filmbook (written in consultation with GAINAX) for #23 states flat out that Misato was offering her body to Shinji in that scene.
...I am inclined to believe Misato was willing to seX0r up Shinji if that would have made him "feel better". Though I don't think she was like a pedophile though. As someone else on this forum (I think it was slothen) once said, paraphrasing now though:
It's called sympathy sex people!!

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Re: Wait did Misato...?

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Postby TriLink » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:59 pm

Themaninblack wrote:This is by know means a recent idea...but notheless I want hear to both sides of the agrument on wheter Misato's and Shinji's realtionship was purely plationic...

That's my take, yeah. I always thought of the relationship the two of them had to be most like that of a Brother/Sister. I've heard folks liken them to a Mother and Son, but I personally don't see that.

I personally think it was more than that but I have my doubts...aka some respect for Misato

Other than the EOE Kiss, what evidence do we really have to suggest that Misato cared for Shinji in that kind of way? We even hear Ritsuko at one point mock Misato because her "Family wasn't working out" or something like that (I forget exactly). On the flip side, yeah, Shinji probably is attracted to Misato a little, but let's face it: he's a guy. There attracted to anything with boobage.

Long story short, I pretty much agree with StarDust's assessment.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:14 pm

TriLink12 wrote:Long story short, I pretty much agree with StarDust's assessment.


:spout: "My tears are flowing like waterfalls!"

Let's just say I didn't expect to see anybody agreeing with me on this or anything else, really, and tend to "worry" my thoughts on Eva might be full of crap most of the time. /weird self-esteem issue.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:41 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:
:spout: "My tears are flowing like waterfalls!"
Hehe, I side mostly with you on this too. I don't think Misato was physically attracted to Shinji in the sense that she would've ever seen him as a boyfriend/lover. But there are certainly moments - as pointed out by Hal E. - where Misato was willing to "seX0r Shinji". But the reasons behind it had nothing to do with physical attraction. To Misato, sex is the all-encompassing answer for everything:

Feeling depressed and worthless? SEX WITH Misato!
Feeling sad and lonely? SEX WITH Misato!
Feeling you can't do your job? SEX WITH Misato!
Problems with a parent? SEX WITH Misato!

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:18 am

:hitthetable:


Hey, maybe all of it was Misato's sick way of giving us some :misato_service:


....Wow. I need to stop posting things late at night. ^^;
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Postby Operation Yashima » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:12 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Feeling depressed and worthless? SEX WITH Misato!
Feeling sad and lonely? SEX WITH Misato!
Feeling you can't do your job? SEX WITH Misato!
Problems with a parent? SEX WITH Misato!

The new fine product from NGE! (Void everywhere except in the strange world of anime land.)


Sweet mother of Gendo... :shock:

Personally I think Misato is desperate, but not THAT desperate. I tend to try and think of Anime characters without sexual hints...NGE is an exception at time though.

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Postby DatDude » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:24 pm

I said my peace on this years ago in that lock thread they linked to.

FYI that was also the first time REichu and I ever really got into it with eachother.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:51 am

Misato's inner self did say she was actually happy to show that side of herself to Shinji. That doesn't come off as innocent in the least.

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Postby slothen » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:10 pm

here's my "IT SEEMS TO ME..." post. What a powerful introduction.
ME wrote:It seems to me that weather or not Misato is attracted to Shinji sexually is completely unrelated to the question of her coming onto him in episode 23.

One thing I've noticed, is that she says Kaji is like her father, but given her descriptions of her father, Shinji seems to be more like him. Kaji may have changed over those eight years, but the fact remains that Shinji runs away from pain, just like Misato says Dr. K did. So I believe its possible that she sees her father in Shinji.

However, I wouldn't use this as evidence to say she's sexually attracted to Shinji, rather, she knows what he's going through, she knows the pitfalls of living life the way he does, and so as a surrogate son, she tries to guide him in the right direction, to take action and accept pain [is this sentance gramatically correct? it seems like a huge run-on with lots of commas]

Yet at the same time, the lines in episodes 23 and 24... and the lines mentioned earlier about showing that side to Shinji, all lead me to believe that she did make sexual advances in episode 23.

In episode 24, we have "Shinji hasn't come home yet, I guess I'm not deserving of his trust." and other lines about Shinji not wanting to go home. If Misato grabbing his hand was such a simple act to comfort him, I don't think we'd have seen such a strong reaction. No, I believe that somehow he feels betrayed and frightened, and Misato also believes that she's somehow betrayed his trust.

The view I currently hold is that yes, Misato did come on to Shinji sexually in episode 23, but not because she was sexually attracted to him. She feels a ridiculously strong emotional connection with him, both because of what they've been through, her similarities to her father, and because she sees that he needs some comfort. And afterward, she says, "I'm the one who's lonely." So she's lonely and needs comfort as well. Given how she's dealt with these feelings in the pasts, and how she's dealt with men in the past, its not too great of a leap to think that she tries to deal with these emotions in a sexual way. After all she reacts often on gut instint and feelings, and rational thoughts like "he's just a boy" don't matter so much in such a situation.

So she makes a sexual advance, is rejected, and suddenly they are both worse off than before. He's frightened, and she feels awful for betraying the trust in their guardian/surrogate son relationship.

And through none of this is she actually sexually attracted to him, and I don't see any convincing evidence proving that she is.

Oh yeah, and in EoE she comforts him with the idea of sex. Yay. A little tidbit showing how sex is hardly about sexual attraction.
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Postby Olin of Xephon » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:14 pm

Misato intended to be amother firgure to Shinji but she was always looking for comfort, as do most of us.
Sex too her was comforting, or at least, reminded her of a time when she was fully comforted.

Shinji was young, nice, and lonely, Misato couldn't help but be attracted to him at least a little. After all, Shinji is one of those people who comes of as so completely pathetic it's hard to be afraid of him.

Couple his helplessness and need for direction with her need for comfort, and a more then platonic relationship seems more then plausable if only from the bottom of a drunken stupor, a state Misato often found herself.

A relationship with Shinji seemed desirable if only because it seemed safe, comfortable.

I personally don't think she would have acted on it, she was already disgusted with herself and her habits, she wouldn't have signed up for the guilt. It more like a wistful thought on yet another lonely night alone.
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Postby TriLink » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:06 pm

Olin of Xephon wrote:Shinji was young, nice, and lonely, Misato couldn't help but be attracted to him at least a little.

I really don't want to sound like you know who, but you leave me little choice. So *ahem*, here it goes...

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Misato's mental leak should make it clear she had some sort of attraction to him.
ep #25 wrote:Misato'S VOICE:
In all honesty, you are actually happy to show this to Shinji.

Why on earth would she be happy to show her sexual side to Shinji unless she harbored some kind of confused and ultimately inappropriate feelings for him.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:32 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Why on earth would she be happy to show her sexual side to Shinji unless she harbored some kind of confused and ultimately inappropriate feelings for him.
I think that could be interpreted in more ways than one. You interpret as she wanted to show it to Shinji because she had some kind of inappropriate feelings toward him. IMO, that line could just mean that she wanted him to know the truth about how she viewed herself. Someone can hunt out the quote (I'm lazy today) about Misato essentially saying "I got tired of trying to be perfect." Now while that's more in relation to her relationship with Kaji. I'm not convinced that she didn't just want Shinji to know this kind of secret truth about herself.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:08 pm

If we didn't have the come on and "adult kiss" I could buy into that.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:21 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:If we didn't have the come on and "adult kiss" I could buy into that.

There's Misato telling herself that she failed as Shinji's mother followed directly by her having him watch the college boinking scene, too.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:28 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:If we didn't have the come on and "adult kiss" I could buy into that.
Pity sex and motivational sex. Nothing to do with physical attraction.

"Misato failing as Shinji's mother/guardian" can mean just that. As someone else noted, as she's dying in EoE she asks "Kaji, did I do the right thing?". I don't think she's referring to trying to "seX0r" Shinji because of a physical attraction, but rather trying to motivate/comfort him with sexual suggestions.

I think falling back on the idea that Misato had THOSE kind of feelings for Shinji is making things perhaps too simple. Misato's main "theme" for the show is how she used sex as a cure-all for everything (like I said earlier). She used it to get revenge on her father (in a roundabout way), to try and comfort Shinji, to try and motivate him, etc. None of this had anything to do with actual feelings of love and attraction (well, ok, Kaji). But as always in NGE there's a deeper problem under the surface. I think reducing Misato's actions to "She had feelings for Shinji" just doesn't "feel" right (to me atleast).
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:42 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:"Misato failing as Shinji's mother/guardian" can mean just that.

That line is tied to the college sexathon (with Shinji watching). Why?

Misato's main "theme" for the show is how she used sex as a cure-all for everything (like I said earlier). She used it to get revenge on her father (in a roundabout way)

I thought she was, like, killing Angels to get revenge on Daddy.

I take it you're referring to the "rebelling" against what she was forced to be as a child owing to his absense, though.


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