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Postby SoryuUberAlles » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:32 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote: Also, if Luke doesn't die remaining the Last Jedi, then the title loses all coolness and credibility.


If it means Kylo dies first, then I like it. (I have never seen so many spoilers in one title omg)
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Postby Sachi » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:18 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:This. I kinda want Luke to die as the last Jedi, as in Ray isn't trained to becomes a Jedi before his death, thereby brining actual balance to the Force.

The whole "Sith vs Jedi" dynamic makes no sense when it comes to the "balancing for Force" idea. If you're a Sith, you bring imbalance the Force because you practice only dark side. If you're a Jedi, you also bring imbalance to the Force because you practice only light side. In order for there to be a true balancing of the Force, you need to practice both the light and the dark side equally, like the Ying and Yang from the far eastern mythology from which the Force concept was derived. In order for that to happen, the practices of both the Sith and the Jedi need to be abandoned.

Also, if Luke doesn't die remaining the Last Jedi, then the title loses all coolness and credibility.

Many things in the new canon have also been developing the concept of alternative philosophies regarding the force finding balance between both the light and dark. Snoke mentions that this is his interest in Kylo Ren. Then there's the return of Ashoka Tano in Star Wars Rebels wielding white lightsabers, and as she had previously left the Jedi Order and still claims to no longer be a Jedi, she can be described as a grey force user as well. There's also the Bendu, who has officially reintroduced the concept of Ashla and Bogan, alternate terms of describing the light and dark side respectively, and he claims it foolish to favor one side for the other and that balance must be had.

Whether or not Luke dies in the upcoming films, he may still die as the last Jedi, having helped paved the way for Rey to forge her own path as a force user. Perhaps a new philosophy regarding the force will be made, and a new order of force users will arise.
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Postby Chuckman » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:23 pm

I like that. Balancing the Force being controlling the negative aspects of the light and dark side while embracing the good makes more sense than what Lucas told us was his official view, that the Dark Side is just evil with no redeeming qualities and "balancing" the force just means getting rid of the "bad" side which really makes no damn sense when you seriously think about it.

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Postby Shinoyami65 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm

It kind of reminds me of some of the views expressed in KOTOR 2, which questioned the whole light/dark dynamic and how the Force itself seemed to influence events to make sure neither side ever actually won.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:38 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:I like that. Balancing the Force being controlling the negative aspects of the light and dark side while embracing the good makes more sense than what Lucas told us was his official view, that the Dark Side is just evil with no redeeming qualities and "balancing" the force just means getting rid of the "bad" side which really makes no damn sense when you seriously think about it.


The problem with this take is that it was never really about light vs. dark so much as a bunch of crazy shitstains vs. the Jedi who were basically on the right track. They didn't really do jack with the Light Side, they just focused on keeping their emotions in check, steering clear of political bullshit, and trying to be generally useful. The whole point of the prequels is that hubris is what did them in, not their relationship with the Force; that was pretty much above reproach from start to finish.

Really, this whole "balance of light and dark" business amounts to saying you have to indulge in hatred, fear, and rage as much as discipline and control, which is silly. Discipline and control are the balanced path; the Jedi maybe could have stood to loosen up a bit, but being mired in the light side was never an issue for them.
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:03 pm

Well...

You can't deny hatred, fear, and rage. You can't cleanse yourself of them. You can't make them go away.

If you just try to ignore them and be emotionless you will just sublimate those urge and lose power over them completely.

If you don't know your shadow side it will rule you. If you understand it, you can transform it into passion.

Also, in the prequels, all the Jedi, even Yoda, were losing their connection to the force. It's not really dwelt upon or explained (when it should have been, in my opinion) but their overly monastic detached lifestyle, at least to my reading, is why they could stand in the same room with the Sith Lord and not sense him.

The prequels are trash and I'm just trying to impose some meaning on them but, ah, there it is.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:26 pm

I'm pretty sure the issue with the Jedi and Palpatine was due to Palpy using the Dark Side to obscure the fuck out of everything (i.e. the Jedi weren't losing their connection so much as their interaction with the Force was being actively fucked with).

Also, Jedi clearly weren't emotionless; you don't see it with twerps like Obi-Wan so much but Yoda was emotional all the time, and so was Qui-Gon. We see that in the characters in Clone Wars and Rebels, too. The Jedi were about control, not denial; letting fear and hatred run roughshod over you is the problem, not acknowledging they exist. Me, I think that's a pretty legit take on things.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:33 pm

You already know I'm going to say this but that's from the cartoons and the backs of toy packaging. I'm reading the movies Lucas made and telling you what I see.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:36 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:You already know I'm going to say this but that's from the cartoons and the backs of toy packaging. I'm reading the movies Lucas made and telling you what I see.


Dude, I'm talking about the movies (and in the case of Palpy their novelizations). That's why I referenced Qui-Gon and Yoda, they're right there in the films.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Chuckman » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:44 pm

Ehh maybe you're right. Lucas is really bad at this stuff so everything about the force in the prequels just feels like he pantsed it anyway.

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Postby Squigsquasher » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Personally I think things were better off when the era covered by the prequels was relegated to the realms of mystery and speculation- even if the prequels had been great, I'm still not sure they should have been made. I find prequels in general are usually fairly disappointing. I feel the same about the Horus Heresy in Warhammer 40,000- it was better off when what little fluff existed for it was deliberately contradictory and shrouded in myth and superstition, giving it the feeling of this massively tragic, historical event that has passed into the realms of myth and legend over 10,000 years, as opposed to having clearly documented events and a defined timeline. Now granted, the Horus Heresy books are (on the whole) a lot better executed than the SW prequels, but I feel the tale lost a bit of its charm and gravitas in the transition from "We know certain key events, but the details have been lost to the ravages of time" to "This is what happened, when it happened and why it happened". There's the old chestnut "Show, don't tell" but just as important IMO is "Know when not to show at all".
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Postby Chuckman » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:24 pm

The Horus Heresy books are as good as their individual authors... and since they put the top tier talent on the big events/conflicts and lesser authors on the less important stuff, I'd say it's way better than the SW prequels.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:43 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Also, Jedi clearly weren't emotionless; you don't see it with twerps like Obi-Wan so much but Yoda was emotional all the time, and so was Qui-Gon. We see that in the characters in Clone Wars and Rebels, too. The Jedi were about control, not denial; letting fear and hatred run roughshod over you is the problem, not acknowledging they exist. Me, I think that's a pretty legit take on things.

I'm not going to argue that the Jedi were emotionless. They clearly felt things, and it was okay for them to do that. I'm simply arguing the imbalance of the Force is perpetrated by the strict adherence to either the Light Side or the Dark Side. The devil is in the details, though, spread across so many films with so many different filmmakers, it's hard to tell if it's intentional anymore.

For example, Yoda warns against the Dark Side in The Empire Strikes Back. He doesn't warn against the Light Side in any way. Couple that with Kylo Ren being "tempted" by the Light Side, and acting like he can't take the Dark Side with him to balance them out, and you have a fairly convincing (but rather indirect and possibly unintentional) argument that the status quo of "balance" in the Force should be all one-sided for Light Side.

It probably wouldn't take that much to tidy up those loose ends and inconsistent tendencies in the narrative, either. Just have some wise-sounding character in the film explain that the Force works best when it's in true balance of both Light Side and Dark Side. But these new Disney movies have kind of dropped the genre language of Fantasy as the main language for delivering its narrative, trading it for a more action-oriented genre language instead. (This isn't to say that there isn't fantasy of some sort in the Disney films, only that these films have become action films with a small splash of fantasy in then, instead of it being the other way around as it was in the original films.) As a result, we're (so far) getting less time to acquaint ourselves with the more mystical and fantastical elements of Star Wars, such as the Force, as we did in the original films. Instead these movies are (and will probably continue to) push the focus more on the dog fights, blasters, and lightsabers more than it will on anything else.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:44 pm

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'm not going to argue that the Jedi were emotionless. They clearly felt things, and it was okay for them to do that. I'm simply arguing the imbalance of the Force is perpetrated by the strict adherence to either the Light Side or the Dark Side. The devil is in the details, though, spread across so many films with so many different filmmakers, it's hard to tell if it's intentional anymore.


I understand that that's your argument, but I disagree with the notion that anyone was strictly adhering to the Light Side, as I don't see any evidence of that. I see control/balance on the one hand and madness on the other, and see no virtue to balancing the two: the balance comes from acknowledging your emotions and keeping them in check, and I really don't see a way to spin that as a negative. It would be different if the Jedi were portrayed as Vulcans who so fear their emotions that they lock them away; at that point some argument for balance could be entertained. But since most Jedi aren't portrayed as Vulcans it doesn't really work in SW.

I'll put it this way: what do you feel the Jedi were doing to excess that would be somehow balanced by their finding some middle ground with the Sith? How would Yoda be improved if he moved toward the philosophies of Palpatine?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:22 pm

Being forbid from attachments is one example of Jedi hubris leading to their downfall. Anakin is forced into a life of secrecy due to this, and his devotion to Padme creates a divide between him and the rest of the order, one that Palpatine is all too happy to exploit. Had they been more tolerant of such passions, Anakin could have been open to his peers regarding his fear of Padme's death.

The other thing is that the Jedi are hypocritical, or at least their ideals are. Obi-Want tells Anakin that "only a Sith deals in absolutes" not realizing that huge irony of that statement. Both the Sith and Jedi also use the same logic when attempting to sway Anakin's opinion. Palpatine tells Anakin that Dooku is too dangerous to be kept alive in the opening act, while Mace Windu says the exact same thing regarding Palpatine later. As much as the Jedi try to differentiate themselves from the Sith, they are surprisingly identical in many ways. In the opera scene, Anakin attempts to explain the difference between the Sith and Jedi, and Palpatine essentially asks him "do you really believe that?" The Jedi order claims to be pure and virtuous, but in practice they're almost no different from the Sith, seeking their own version of control and order over the galaxy.

Expanding on that last point a little bit: the Jedi eventually also became agents of the Republic, rather than agents of the force. They became servants of the people rather than serving the will of the force, and the democracy of the Galactic Republic was easily corrupted by the Sith, thus making the Jedi their own enemy. It's interesting to note that in the new canon, according to Bloodline. Luke mostly detached himself from the affairs of the New Republic, going off to do his own thing.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:41 pm

You're making a lot of contradictions there, though; to begin with you use Anakin to make many of your points, when he is far from the best example of . . . well, anything, really. But on top of that you're making comparisons by picking examples from the end of the Jedi era, rather than looking at the Jedi as a whole. There's a reason why I said "You don't see it with twerps like Obi-Wan" and instead pointed to people like Qui-Gon and Yoda. The hypocrisy you're trying to illustrate here doesn't really work when you look at Jedi like them, and they're about as "light" as the Light Side gets. So, as I said, what would Yoda get out of meeting the Dark Side halfway? What would Qui-Gon get? Are Mace and Obi-Wan and Anakin examples of the failure of the Jedi philosophy, or examples of people who failed to get it?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Sachi » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:09 pm

I use Anakin as an example, because the failings of the Jedi order are what pushed him to the dark side.

Qui-Gon Jinn is probably one of the best examples a Jedi, yet not for his adherence to the Jedi philosophy. He fully believes in and embraces the living force, even when it brings him into conflict with the rest of the order, such as with training Anakin. It's because of this rebellious streak that Qui-Gon is often grouped with the gray Jedi.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:21 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I use Anakin as an example, because the failings of the Jedi order are what pushed him to the dark side.

Qui-Gon Jinn is probably one of the best examples a Jedi, yet not for his adherence to the Jedi philosophy. He fully believes in and embraces the living force, even when it brings him into conflict with the rest of the order, such as with training Anakin. It's because of this rebellious streak that Qui-Gon is often grouped with the gray Jedi.


Grouped by whom? Qui-Gon's focus on the living Force makes him the lightest of the Light Side IMO, and groups him with Yoda as someone who "gets it" (even if they disagreed re: Anakin, since Yoda realized right off that the boy was a dick). They are exemplars of the Jedi order, and thus people who represent one extreme if you want to put the Jedi and Sith at opposite ends of a sliding scale. Hence my inquiry re: Yoda and how he'd somehow become a better Force practitioner if he met the Sith halfway.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:46 pm

Luke Skywlker does refer to the Light and Sark sides of the Force as the "Good" and the "Bad" sides in Empire, and Yoda doesn't correct him on that. It seems as though a true balancing of the Force isn't probably is this is Luke's reading of the Force.
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Postby movieartman » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:14 am

First image from The Last Jedi of sorts.
Rey with her hair down is different & nice.
SPOILER: Show
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