Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:47 pm

NOTE: I heavily rewrote questions in this post on January 25th 2010 because I'm embarrassed on how my writing style was at the time of this thread's creation. The points of what I was getting out, however, are still intact.

_____

Mostly questions and thoughts (and screencaps galore!!) about the final scene.

~If it did occur several months after Asuka returned, wouldn't she have been healed (read: No bandages) by that time?

~Why was Rei ("I'm probably the third") there in the scene if several weeks/months had passed?

And for that matter, was Rei floating around as shown for awhile or what? Why was she there to begin with?

Image

~If the scene did happen after awhile, Shinji's breaking down because of the caress from Asuka would result in that kind of effect--so shocked he wasn't alone anymore that he broke down--okay (but this IS Shinji we're talking about here. ;) ), but what about the "confirmation of reality" that that one trading card claimed the reasoning behind Shinji trying to strangle her? How would he not know he wasn't truly alive for so long? Just because he was alone?

Image

Image

Maybe it's just me, but the look on his face here seems to be one of "WTF? Am I really alive??"

Image

Image

~The "grave-markers" weren't something just already....there? Not just symbolic and/or some fallen poles are some such things?
Image

~Is it possible the cross rusted from the LCL Sea? (EDIT: There was rust on the nail, not Misato's cross, so never mind that.)

So, just how long would it take for metal to rust?
Image

~Isn't it possible that Pre and actual Instrumentality happened for several days/whatever, thus the final scene's supposed time passage making more sense? In other words, they both return the same night, after all.

~Since Last A and Last B didn't happen, how can the graves scene be a carryover? How can that be implied if it's not seen?

~EvaOtaku stated the following:

Q) Why does Shinji strangle Asuka in the final scene of The End of Evangelion, 'I need you.' ?

A) The sequence is one of the most hotly debated in Eva circles all over the world. Until now there was no definitive answer to the mystery. However, Bochan Bird has recently stumbled onto the absolute answer, held within the Eva Carddass Masters Trading Card Game.

Here is the original answer I wrote for this FAQ:
'I need you.' affirms Shinji's choice to return to reality, and in doing so has separated himself from Asuka once more. His first impulse is to strangle her, to finish what he started during Complementation. But then he feels her caress (which is very similar to the one he received from his mother only moments before) and realizes what he's doing. He releases his grip and collapses as an emotionally broken little boy - which disgusts Asuka.

The following presents the definitive answer to this question, as translated by Bochan Bird -
Part II (movies) Drama card D-88
Title: "Kimochi warui"
Small print: "Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection and denial."

---- So, I was half right. The scene is meant to be an affirmation of Shinji's decision to return to reality. As I wrote on the Evangelion ML, the scene is there to prove "pain once again exists" . However, I didn't give Shinji enough credit for his intention when he strangled her. I thought it was a carry over from the previous strangulation scene, when it was actually meant as a test to see if he was indeed back in the real world.


And although that FAQ is full of some errors, why do so many fans--him included--think one scene happens after another??

This all boils down to my main question, which is this:

Is Shinji-kun WAS alone for a period of time, just how long?
Last edited by Sailor Star Dust on Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby MaggotMaster » Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:53 pm

Here we go again with this scene.

In before long debate about Kimochi Warui
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:22 pm

God sooo much stuff to respond to! Why? Why can't you get passed this?

SSD wrote:~If it did occur several months after Asuka returned, wouldn't she have been healed (read: No bandages) by that time?


Asuka isn't injured, if she was she wouldn't be able to move her arm. Theoreticly she just got back that day while Shinji was apparently sleeping or something.

So was Rei just, uh, floating like that for awhile?? ^^;


She wasn't. She made the splash that Shinji reacted to.

~If the scene did happen after awhile, Shinji's breaking down because of the caress from Asuka would result in that kind of effect--so shocked he wasn't alone anymore that he broke down--okay (but this IS Shinji we're talking about here. ), but what about the "confirmation of reality" that that one trading card claimed the reasoning behind Shinji trying to strangle her? How would he not know he wasn't truly alive for so long? Just because he was alone?


I believe the conformation of reality has validity because he was alone so long. Watch Castaway to get an idea of what I expect Shinji's mental state to be at that point.

~The "grave-markers" weren't something just already....there? Not just symbolic and/or some fallen poles are some such things?


The cross was nailed to one implying they're indeed gravemarkers Shinji put up. Not to mention that was an unused scenario for the ending.

~Is it possible the cross rusted from the LCL Sea?

No, no, no the rust came from the nail. That cross doesn't look metal.

Is Shinji-kun WAS alone for a period of time, just how long?

From Shinji's mental state I'd say at least 2 months have passed.
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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby Ornette » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:32 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Mostly questions and thoughts (and screencaps galore!!) about the final scene.


~If it did occur several months after Asuka returned, wouldn't she have been healed (read: No bandages) by that time?

It didn't occur months after Asuka returned, it occured months (probably) after Shinji returned. Asuka's return was recent.


~Why was Rei ("tabun, sanme ne.") there if it it was several weeks/months?

So was Rei just, uh, floating like that for awhile?? ^^;

Why would her appearence (and suddent disappearance) mean that she was there for weeks/months?

~If the scene did happen after awhile, Shinji's breaking down because of the caress from Asuka would result in that kind of effect--so shocked he wasn't alone anymore that he broke down--okay (but this IS Shinji we're talking about here. ;)), but what about the "confirmation of reality" that that one trading card claimed the reasoning behind Shinji trying to strangle her? How would he not know he wasn't truly alive for so long? Just because he was alone?

and he wasn't all that sane

~The "grave-markers" weren't something just already....there? Not just symbolic and/or some fallen poles are some such things?

The original scenario for this scene has them listed as grave markers and even had names on them. In another scenario Asuka actually kicks hers over (the broken one). In the storyboards for EoE they're labeled as "like grave markers". Considering how barren the rest of the land was, how could they naturally be standing up? There isn't a tree standing up for as far as you can see, and why would Shinji put Misato's cross on one of them?

~Is it possible the cross rusted from the LCL Sea?
Me: How long does it take for metal to rust?
My stepmom: Depends on what kind.
Me: What about jewerly, like if it's outside?
Stepmom: Quite awhile. Why?
Me: Oh shit! Poor guy... T_T No reason; it's unimportant. ^^;

So...how long DOES it take for metal to rust?

NOTE: the rust is from the nail, not the jewelry

~Isn't it possible that Pre-Instrumentlality happened for several days/whatever, thus the final scene's supposed time passage making more sense? ie: They both return the same night, after all.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, we know how long pre-instrumentality lasted, starting from when Shinji lost his ego-border (noted by the bridge crew) and ended when the world was turned to tang. It lasted a few minutes to maybe a few hours, couldn't of have been days.

Is Shinji-kun WAS alone for a period of time, just how long?

long enough for him to give up hope (gravemarkers) and develop a few loose screws in his head (choking Asuka). Other than that, does it really matter how long?
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Postby Nukie » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:59 pm

There's like one shot where we see Shinji's shoes and they're all yellowy and crusty. On the other hand, his shirt is STILL tucked in (although he is Shinji.)I'd have to go with probably 2-3 months (although what did he eat?) :wink:
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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:43 am

Ornette wrote:The original scenario for this scene has them listed as grave markers and even had names on them. In another scenario Asuka actually kicks hers over (the broken one). In the storyboards for EoE they're labeled as "like grave markers". Considering how barren the rest of the land was, how could they naturally be standing up? There isn't a tree standing up for as far as you can see, and why would Shinji put Misato's cross on one of them?

Indeed.

I need you is a strange scene to dissect. There are remnants of intentions (like Asuka and Misato's markers) that are generally without context, as if the events may or may not have taken place. There is a definite appearance of time having passed, but everything about Shinji and Asuka, particularly Shinji's behavior would indicate to me that the scene took place soon after his returning from the sea. But something else that needs to be considered is that the scene is HIGHLY constructed. I would argue that we're seeing abstract montage editing rather than abstract continuity editing. The final scene just doesn't feel like an extension of the plot. It still feels like la la land.

One thing I feel fairly certain about is that there's no reason to believe that an extended period of time has gone by. If the characters are still in Tokyo 3, the landscape is about how it ought to look. Perhaps a bit more desolate, but perhaps thats what Anno wanted to fit the mood. Again, visual construction to reflect the emotional tonality of the result of the film.

My two cents.

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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:45 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:One thing I feel fairly certain about is that there's no reason to believe that an extended period of time has gone by.

THANK YOU FOR NOT READING THE THREAD. DON'T LET THE "BACK BUTTON" HIT YOUR ASS ON THE WAY OUT.

SERIOUSLY.

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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby MaggotMaster » Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:52 am

Reichu wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:One thing I feel fairly certain about is that there's no reason to believe that an extended period of time has gone by.

THANK YOU FOR NOT READING THE THREAD. DON'T LET THE "BACK BUTTON" HIT YOUR ASS ON THE WAY OUT.

SERIOUSLY.


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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:00 am

I KNOW IT'S RETARDED LOL I REALLY NEED TO STOP

SERIOUSLY

It's horrifically easy to lapse into moronic typing patterns, however, especially late at night when reading posts that make me go >_<.

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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:01 am

Reichu wrote:
The Eva Monkey wrote:One thing I feel fairly certain about is that there's no reason to believe that an extended period of time has gone by.

THANK YOU FOR NOT READING THE THREAD. DON'T LET THE "BACK BUTTON" HIT YOUR ASS ON THE WAY OUT.

SERIOUSLY.

Rachel, that's not necessary. I did read the thread. I was getting at the fact that since everything looks so desolate, some people believe that during instrumentality, VAST amounts of time went by.

I look at things in a creative and expressive way. That is the basis for my argument.

My argument is that the passage of time is implied, but the construction of the scene in a narratice sense is conflicted, and that it is constructed more to relect mood or emotional tonality than what tangible physical events took place.

My challenge is to pose an argument as to why this scene should not be interpretted as one that is of visual construction that pushes continuity aside.

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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:13 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:Rachel, that's not necessary. I did read the thread. I was getting at the fact that since everything looks so desolate, some people believe that during instrumentality, VAST amounts of time went by.

I don't remember this being the subject of any discussion in the thread we are in. (In fact, I can't recall ever reading a thread specifically addressing the concept highlighted in red.)

My argument is that the passage of time is implied, but the construction of the scene in a narratice sense is conflicted, and that it is constructed more to relect mood or emotional tonality than what tangible physical events took place.

I don't think that is going to make sense to most people, including me.

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:22 am

Reichu wrote:I don't remember this being the subject of any discussion in the thread we are in. (In fact, I can't recall ever reading a thread specifically addressing the concept highlighted in red.)

I remember a time when it was a prevalent belief. Maybe I'm bringing up some archaic stuff from Eva boards of days gone by.

Reichu wrote:I don't think that is going to make sense to most people, including me.

Oh come now, my film student rants aren't that incomprehensible.

All you need to know is that visual details sometimes are present not because of the result of plot but because the direction deliberately wants to convey something.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:28 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:
Reichu wrote:I don't think that is going to make sense to most people, including me.

Oh come now, my film student rants aren't that incomprehensible.

All you need to know is that visual details sometimes are present not because of the result of plot but because the direction deliberately wants to convey something.


That actually kinda was incomprehensible to me at least. Anyways it's not just the visuals it's Shinji's behavior. I mean he treid to kill her for crying out loud, he doesn't just go around doing things like that. The ONLY reason he could be in a mindset where that was possible for him was if he was alone for quite awhile. Unless you want to argue he was plotting Asuka's death while he was talking to Rei/Lilith, Kaworu/Adam, and Yui.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:39 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:I remember a time when it was a prevalent belief. Maybe I'm bringing up some archaic stuff from Eva boards of days gone by.

I have no idea what you're thinking of, but we're talking about the somewhat different matter of the time delay between when Shinji reembodies and when Asuka follows...

Oh come now, my film student rants aren't that incomprehensible.

They SCREAM inaccessible artsy-fartsy film student mumbo jumbo.

All you need to know is that visual details sometimes are present not because of the result of plot but because the direction deliberately wants to convey something.

Alright. But I can't see how it's applicable here.

but everything about Shinji and Asuka, particularly Shinji's behavior would indicate to me that the scene took place soon after his returning from the sea.

That's odd -- I get the exact opposite impression. Shinji almost seemed like he had his marbles one scene prior. In the final, he's totally lost it again.

I see no reason to dismiss the evidence that indicates Shinji has been alone there for an extended period of time before Asuka shows up. Your idea that the final scene doesn't represent objective reality (at least, that's what I think you're saying) seems completely unnecessary.

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Postby Katayoku no Tenshi » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:00 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:~Is it possible the cross rusted from the LCL Sea?


Not without oxygen, no. LCL is only good for breathing when an eletrical current is passed through it, 'allowing the blood tgo be oxygenated directly' or something like it.

Sailor Star Dust wrote:~Why was Rei ("tabun, sanme ne.") there if it it was several weeks/months?


Thats Quantum Rei. Quantum means Bugger Logic. She's not there but when has that ever stoped her? Maybe she set it up so thst Shinji would see her when someone returned (a reverse transition guide or 'doorman' prehaps). As Shinji obviously isn't screwed uo enough he obviously needs to see as much of a dead friend/ mother avatar as possible. :(

Sailor Star Dust wrote:~Isn't it possible that Pre-Instrumentlality happened for several days/whatever, thus the final scene's supposed time passage making more sense? ie: They both return the same night, after all.


Instrumentality yes. Pre innstrumentality no. That happens pretty much in real time as we see the activities of Fuyutsuki and the bridge bunnies. Even if instrumentality did take longer than it appeared that doesn't mean he hasn't been alone on the beach for ages.

I'd like to second the 'what does Shinji eat? question.

I've often wondered if Shinji hasn't taken to dreaming of people returning and been dissapointed every time. So he starts killing the aparitions that are taunting him. The instead of fighting and whatnot this one does something different. ZOMG Real Asuka *Don't Kill*.
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Re: Passage of Time (EoE Final Scene)

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:06 am

Reichu wrote:
Oh come now, my film student rants aren't that incomprehensible.

They SCREAM inaccessible artsy-fartsy film student mumbo jumbo.

Awww... now I'm really sad. :(

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:11 am

Katayoku no Tenshi wrote:I'd like to second the 'what does Shinji eat? question.


Well obviously that big ass splash didn't do as much damage as it should have and there is a town or city nearby with plentiful supplies. Hell we even saw a city when GNR fell appart so we know they're still around.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:23 am

Katayoku no Tenshi wrote: Maybe she set it up so thst Shinji would see her when someone returned (a reverse transition guide or doorman prehaps).

You know, I've never thought of it that way, but it seems to make sense. I've always wondered why this cut appears right after Misato shouts "GIVE HIM BACK!" after the failed salvage operation in ep20:
ep20 GIVE HIM BACK wrote:Image


Right after this cut, we see some starfield stuff then Shinji getting re-embodied and squirted out of Eva-01. When is the other time we see this exact same cut? Right after we see this in ep01
ep01 oooo mystery Rei wrote:Image

Well, it's a stretch, but...
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Postby Shin-seiki » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:03 am

I get the feeling that P3II goes by very fast, given that Hyuga and Aoba are still in the same frantic mood when we go back to reality; it's like we just pick up right where we left them before we went into mind-fuck mode.

Re: Rei as a 'reverse transition guide', that has occured to me before, as I've posited more than once that her appearance may be somehow connected to Asuka suddenly turning up.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:08 pm

Thirded: "What do I eat? I'd like to go home now, but, ah...where's home?!"

I agree with Eva Monkey in terms of the final scene meant to be creative/artsy with the visuals, kinda like with the somewhat creepy sandbox scene and that weird-ass ZOMG GNR'S BLEEDING MANGLED FACE cut (during the Shinji turns into tang/"nani ga negaou no?" scene...now THAT was creepy!)

Interesting theory about Rei being a reverse transisition guide.... ^_^ She IS Rei after all, so that makes sense.

@ Nukie: I don't recall EVER seeing Shinji's shoes in that scene, and I've watched just that scene alone to analyze about, oh, 10+ times. ^_^;;

It didn't occur months after Asuka returned, it occured months (probably) after Shinji returned. Asuka's return was recent.


That's what I meant to type... *headdesk*

And let's remain civil people, I don't want this theard to be locked once the discussion gets interesting (not that already isn't!). T_T

Rust from the nail, huh? How the hell did I miss that? :(

Oh and btw, I've seen Castaway--twice--and I think it's brillant. ^_^
Though it's one of those movies like 2001 were there's barely any talking.... (of course)
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